[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (1st Test)

[Mumbles119]

First time poster here. I think the mix of injuries and unavailables has really helped us long-term. The strength in depth we've had to foster has really strengthened our selections.

We now appear to have 4 or maybe even 5 equal 10s - Farrell, Ford, Burns, Myler, Cipriani, Slade - certainly Farrell, Burns and Slade are practically like for like. The forwards are developing nicely, though we've been very unlucky with injuries at prop - they really need protecting at International level.

Have to say, I'm still not convinced about our wingers selection. We seemed to be blessed with many more options now than in years gone by but at test level, we seem to struggle to get top-class performances out of them.

I have to ask though, what happened to Nowell? I thought he was one of the biggest success stories of the 6 nations. Would certainly have him in over May on recent performances.

Welcome to forum el capitano,

Nowell picked up an injury near end of season,
and has had an operation.

 

[Captain Robshaw]

Ah thanks guys, and thanks for the welcome. He seemed to have slipped under the radar amongst all the other unavailables.
It's interesting the comparison of having an out and out flyer like May against a great all-round canny player like Nowell. I think if May could make more of his opportunities then it would be a closer call.

 

[barkinghooker]

I'm hoping Foden can eventually end up back on the wing. I'd be happy with Nowell too but Foden seems to score and make yards in an England shirt. I like us having two full backs starting.

 

[Captain Robshaw]

Foden may work his way back in yet. I have to say that finishing off moves is one area where we're way behind the game. Watching the Aussies earlier and even the Baa-Baas the other week, there's a certain instinctiveness that makes them so dangerous.

We're improving though, no doubt.

 

[Big Ewis]

"Captain Robshaw" ?! :lol: really ? well, wativor making you happies I guest...

 

[Darwin]

After watching the match again (I clearly have no life...) I've got a few more thoughts:

- I think the criticism of Messam has been a bit unfair. His line speed in defense was superb - there were numerous times hit the English players back a long way behind the advantage line. I still think we should have Kaino at 6 and Vito at 8 next week, but that is more to do with the style of play we need to be playing..
- I was pleasantly surprised at the impact Crockett made when he came on. I was quite worried when he was introduced as he can a penalty magnet at scrum time, but the scrum visible improved after his introduction.
- Fekitoa was very enthusiastic when came on, but was perhaps too enthusiastic! He rushed out of the line several times in defense and missed tackles. It was very interesting to see him come on at 12, as position he has little experience. He is certainly more in the Nonu mould than the Conrad Smith mould, and as such I wouldn't mind seeing him given more time in the 12 jersey - he has the potential to be even more threatening than Nonu (without giving away the stupid penalties Nonu does....).
- Hopefully Savea is fit next week. If he is surely the AB's selectors can no longer stick with Dagg at fullback. He's been average (at best) for the last two seasons, and his last two matches in Black have been shockers. Surely now is the time to finally play the best fullback in the world at fullback. Even if Savea is not fit I would be tempted to play Fekitoa out of position on the wing if it meant removing Dagg from the starting lineup.

 

[austingtir]

After watching the match again (I clearly have no life...) I've got a few more thoughts:

- I think the criticism of Messam has been a bit unfair. His line speed in defense was superb - there were numerous times hit the English players back a long way behind the advantage line. I still think we should have Kaino at 6 and Vito at 8 next week, but that is more to do with the style of play we need to be playing..
- I was pleasantly surprised at the impact Crockett made when he came on. I was quite worried when he was introduced as he can a penalty magnet at scrum time, but the scrum visible improved after his introduction.
- Fekitoa was very enthusiastic when came on, but was perhaps too enthusiastic! He rushed out of the line several times in defense and missed tackles. It was very interesting to see him come on at 12, as position he has little experience. He is certainly more in the Nonu mould than the Conrad Smith mould, and as such I wouldn't mind seeing him given more time in the 12 jersey - he has the potential to be even more threatening than Nonu (without giving away the stupid penalties Nonu does....).
- Hopefully Savea is fit next week. If he is surely the AB's selectors can no longer stick with Dagg at fullback. He's been average (at best) for the last two seasons, and his last two matches in Black have been shockers. Surely now is the time to finally play the best fullback in the world at fullback. Even if Savea is not fit I would be tempted to play Fekitoa out of position on the wing if it meant removing Dagg from the starting lineup.

Smith at fullback and Fekitoa on the wing is a no brainer to me. I will actually be very surprised if thats not what hansen rolls out.... but I also think he might give some of the lame ducks in this game a second shot.... will be spewing if one of them is Dagg though.

I also think we have to start Crockett he's earned it imo. His form for the crusaders has been very good. If they didnt like his penalty magnet abilities he'd never of made the team in the first place to me they have no choice but to start him.

I think we need Fekitoa in the team just for his enthusiasm (hopefully its curbed a bit next time he plays) there are just to many passenger looking players in this team atm.

And agreed Messam was fine he is totally not the reason we performed so poorly... but Kaino at 6 just makes way more sense looking at the balance of the back row.... I actually suspect Messam might get another shot at it though. I think we will see the same backrow for the second test (depending on Read). The tight 5 was way more of an issue for me.

 

[Big Ewis]

I thought Nonu was very mediocre today. And I didn't think Dagg was THAT awful...

 

[donmcdazzle]

Maybe I need to take it back regarding my criticism of Messam, so I'm happy to wear that as a bad in the moment call. I think Hansen might stick to the same starting trio next week but give Vito 30 or so at 8.

I know Hansen is loyal but this while Dagg thing is becoming awkward. He is clearly just not good enough at the moment and it is crazy to put Smith out of position to accommodate him. Nonu is annoying me too, heaven forbid he actually ran it straight and hard once in a while.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I actually hope Read and Savea are fit and picked for the second test. I want to see the best players playing. No excuses next week, with under strength teams and one side was missing so and so and that contributed to the win/ loss.

 

[GoTheNaki]

People misunderstood what I said.

I didn't say that I wanted a 30 point blowout, I simply stated that I couldn't get excited in playing this England team because I knew the headlines if NZ won.

"Understrength" etc.

Its like England suiting up to play:

Crockett
Mealamu
Ben Franks
Tuipolotu
Romano
Luatua
Cane
Vito
A. Smith
Barrett
Savea
Saili
Conrad
Cory Jane
Ben Smith

How can you get excited about beating that team when you know what the NZ media will say?

Ridiculous amounts of depth though, damn.

 

[kesh]

For all the chat about under strength side and second stringers etc, from what I'm seeing from you English guys is like 3 or 4 changes max to the starting team?

Does this mean you guys think that most of the second stringers should actually now be first stringers? Or that the other guys wouldn't have made such a big difference? The pre game chat was as if a whole new XV would be coming in.

Guessing, going off the fact that the players coming in play for the best winning teams they'll be wholehearted changes to the side for the second test. Expecting Michael Lawes, Farrell, Billy V, Wood, Hartley all to start. No.10 will be the big decision. Eastmond will stay because 12trees isn't fresh, the rest are unlucky, the bench very competitive with one or two good players not included (Parling, Morgan, Attwood?).

Will the side be much different to the first? Probably more combative with Lawes and Faz, like the AB's a bit more cohesive. Can't wait.

 

[Darwin]

Smith at fullback and Fekitoa on the wing is a no brainer to me. I will actually be very surprised if thats not what hansen rolls out.... but I also think he might give some of the lame ducks in this game a second shot.... will be spewing if one of them is Dagg though.

I also think we have to start Crockett he's earned it imo. His form for the crusaders has been very good. If they didnt like his penalty magnet abilities he'd never of made the team in the first place to me they have no choice but to start him.

I think we need Fekitoa in the team just for his enthusiasm (hopefully its curbed a bit next time he plays) there are just to many passenger looking players in this team atm.

And agreed Messam was fine he is totally not the reason we performed so poorly... but Kaino at 6 just makes way more sense looking at the balance of the back row.... I actually suspect Messam might get another shot at it though. I think we will see the same backrow for the second test (depending on Read). The tight 5 was way more of an issue for me.

I don't actually think he has been that good for the Crusaders - indeed I think this has been his worst season for them for a couple of years (he has been giving away slightly less penalties than last season though, which is a bonus).. He started on the bench for the 1st 3 matches, and has been dropped to the bench for the last 2 matches too - that hardly suggests he has been in great form! I think the new scrum engagement rules have helped him at scrum-time somewhat, but he has a long way to go before I will be comfortable seeing him in black....

I thought Nonu was very mediocre today. And I didn't think Dagg was THAT awful...

Nonu was mediocre. As others have mentioned he is at his best when running straight and hard, but he failed to do that today. He seems to think he is some sort of creative player now. He is not. While it is good to see him passing the ball out wide he needs to think less with ball in hand and just use his MASSSSSSSSSS.

Dagg was poor. Perhaps not awful, but 4 handling errors in 50 minutes of rugby it not very good! The problem is this is pretty typical for him these days. Quite frankly I wouldn't even pick him in the AB's squad if everyone was fit.

 

[austingtir]

I don't actually think he has been that good for the Crusaders - indeed I think this has been his worst season for them for a couple of years (he has been giving away slightly less penalties than last season though, which is a bonus).. He started on the bench for the 1st 3 matches, and has been dropped to the bench for the last 2 matches too - that hardly suggests he has been in great form! I think the new scrum engagement rules have helped him at scrum-time somewhat, but he has a long way to go before I will be comfortable seeing him in black....
Nonu was mediocre. As others have mentioned he is at his best when running straight and hard, but he failed to do that today. He seems to think he is some sort of creative player now. He is not. While it is good to see him passing the ball out wide he needs to think less with ball in hand and just use his MASSSSSSSSSS.

Dagg was poor. Perhaps not awful, but 4 handling errors in 50 minutes of rugby it not very good! The problem is this is pretty typical for him these days. Quite frankly I wouldn't even pick him in the AB's squad if everyone was fit.

What so you'd rather see Woodcock continue to decline? Woodcock is waaay past it man. Im watching the Ireland game from last year now and imo Crockett was good against a very good Ireland team.

The Crusaders have been steamrollering teams and theres no way Crockett has not been a part of that. Its the backs that are the issue for the Saders nothing to do with the Forwards they are arguably the best pack in super rugby by some margin.

 

[The Jones Boy]

it's interesting how this game has benefited no one ultimately, and although there are good elements from both cheering sides, this match turns out to be a partypooper for both parties.
NZ cannot be happy with only just beating a weakened England side at home on one hand; and on the other, yes England came close but, therefor, they obviously can't be satisfied with giving it away in the waning moments and will feel terrible remorse.

The All Blacks handling was nothing short of woeful.
They will be bitterly disappointed at how much possession they coughed up and how many opportunities were note realised. Please note I'm talking about the second half here.
Very rusty performance and the All Blacks are notoriously slow starters on the long international circuit.
Hoew we won today is still beyond me.
Full marks to Aaron Cruden for noticing the English had turned their backs on him but England won't get caught that way twice.

Apart from the undeserved result I think this was a big booster for England.
For the AB's it was a bucket of southern ocean to wake them up.
England are not easy beats, they are a tough squad and if we don't man up and start showing some class we will get rolled at home.

 

[austingtir]

The most amazing stats from this game is the defenders beaten, clean breaks and offloads.... who would of thought England would trounce us in those areas.... it almost defies belief. Its not like they just shaded us we were well outplayed in those areas.

 

[Rich Taff]

who would of

It's 'WOULD HAVE'!!!!

I repeat. It's WOULD HAVE!!!!

Once again, and all together now....WOULD HAVE!!!

FFS!!!!!!

Just because 'would've' sounds like 'would of' does not excuse this!!!!!!! ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Ok, rant over. Nothing to see here. Move along. Move along.

 

[Jaguares]

Now I'm watching the game on tape delay. At the end I'll give my verdict

 

[Darwin]

What so you'd rather see Woodcock continue to decline? Woodcock is waaay past it man. Im watching the Ireland game from last year now and imo Crockett was good against a very good Ireland team.

The Crusaders have been steamrollering teams and theres no way Crockett has not been a part of that. Its the backs that are the issue for the Saders nothing to do with the Forwards they are arguably the best pack in super rugby by some margin.

That's the point, Crockett hasn't been a large part of it! The Crusaders have been steamrolling team while Crockett has been on the bench! Crockett was dropped to the bench after being completely ineffective against a 7-man Sharks pack, and the Crusaders have looked much better up front since (with Tim Perry starting at LH).

There is no doubt that Woodcock is past his best (indeed he has been declining slowly for 3-4 years), but at least you know what you will get from him every week. He isn't the destructive scrummager he once was but he will hold his own at scrum-time and give away few penalties, he will make his tackles and make a few runs with the ball. He is not going to scare the opposition, but he won't let the side down. I tend to agree that the AB's do need something better than a 'solid' player, but to be honest he is still the best we have. Crockett is better around he field (though does give away the odd silly penalty), but though his scrummaging has improved can get on the wrong side of the ref at scrum-time - if/when he does he gives away 3-4 penalties a match. Having someone like that in your side is a massive risk. I actually think Ben Franks is the best LH prop in the country, but still has a few issues with discipline. Unfortunately we don't seem to have many talented young LH's coming through - the AB's selectors seem very keen on Joe Moody, but he hasn't even established himself at Super Rugby level yet.....

Anyways...Something that really concerns me about this AB's side is our inability to turn the opposition ball over. This has been an issue for several years now, and is something I think we need to address. There are certainly less opportunities to 'pilfer' the ball these days, and you seldom see AB's players even trying to turn the ball over this way. Indeed if you look at the AB's first choice 7's (McCaw and Cane) neither excel in this area.

The way we attempt to turn the ball over these days is outnumbering the opposition at the breakdown and blowing them off the ball. The problem is we seem to be a fraction of a second too late in identifying these chances, and by the time we do the opportunity is lost. There we numerous times this match where we tackled the English player well behind the advantage line and failed to take the opportunity to flood the breakdown and turnover the ball (though England deserve some credit for the way they protected the ball). At the moment the only way we are able to turn-over the ball is through opposition mistakes - luckily England were generous enough to make a number of unforced handling errors or we would have had a very hard time getting the ball off them!

 

[William18]

I don't actually think he has been that good for the Crusaders - indeed I think this has been his worst season for them for a couple of years (he has been giving away slightly less penalties than last season though, which is a bonus).. He started on the bench for the 1st 3 matches, and has been dropped to the bench for the last 2 matches too - that hardly suggests he has been in great form! I think the new scrum engagement rules have helped him at scrum-time somewhat, but he has a long way to go before I will be comfortable seeing him in black....



Nonu was mediocre. As others have mentioned he is at his best when running straight and hard, but he failed to do that today. He seems to think he is some sort of creative player now. He is not. While it is good to see him passing the ball out wide he needs to think less with ball in hand and just use his MASSSSSSSSSS.

Dagg was poor. Perhaps not awful, but 4 handling errors in 50 minutes of rugby it not very good! The problem is this is pretty typical for him these days. Quite frankly I wouldn't even pick him in the AB's squad if everyone was fit.

Nonu isn't going to play well if the first five doesn't take the ball to the line. Cruden wasn't fit and shouldn't have been picked. Some of Dagg's mistakes were dropping terrible passes from his insides (Nonu).