[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (1st Test)

[ratsapprentice]

I didn't like Youngs before the Lions - he's played like this for a couple of years now.
The quality of his passing just isn't very good - and today was awful at times.

 

[goodNumber10]

Mike Brown overran it.

that makes no sense.

Yes brown might have been too shallow but the pass to brown was then the wrong option... if the pass was good it would have hit brown regardless.

The issue with it was it was a 50/50 pass, and he should have just held on and taken the contact - lovely break, but on that particular moment Eastmond showed a lack of composure.

Good point. Alternatively, Farrell and Vunipola recently played two huge finals and came off injured/cramped. Perhaps if they're not 100pc, Lancaster could use that as a reason to play Burns and Morgan (more likely in the case of Morgan). Twelvetrees and Hartley have been struggling with injury, so there's two more excuses. Bit more difficult with Wood and Lawes coming in, but I think they're two of our most important players.

why are we looking to drop quality players?

three days ago we wanted these players in the team and everyone was crying at the prospect of them being missing, today we're looking for a reason to drop them?

The fact of it is if Burns and Morgan played well enough to warrant selection over Farrell and BV then they get picked - if the coaches think certain outcomes would have been different due to things like farrells marshalling in defence, and Billy's offloading then they'll get picked.

 

[kesh]

Care, Dickson... long list... Gramps, My lil lass, B.Youngs.

What made him good at one point, taking that extra moment now and then to see and go into a hole (ala WC vs Argentina) began to get criticized more as he was doing it constantly, teams looked flat compared to Dicksons quick ball. His maybe just been unable to adjust to that part of the game right that made him stand out. Abit weird really, like his brother been incapable of throwing a god damn line out. Plus he can't tackle.

 

[ratsapprentice]

that makes no sense.

Yes brown might have been too shallow but the pass to brown was then the wrong option... if the pass was good it would have hit brown regardless.

Eastmond is well capable of making those passes, Brown should have held his depth... unless he was anticipating a kick, then he had nothing to gain by being so flat.

 

[exeter]

The issue with it was it was a 50/50 pass, and he should have just held on and taken the contact

Was their enough support to take the contact - he could have been wrapped up and given the penalty away? In the situation he was in I think he was right to take the risk - I'm pretty sure New Zealand would have done.

The fact of it is if Burns and Morgan played well enough to warrant selection over Farrell and BV then they get picked

That's certainly how Lancaster should be looking at it. However, from a PR point of view I'm pretty sure Lancaster won't be saying 'I'm dropping a fully fit Owen Farrell', even if he were.

 

[RugbyWale]

Wilson was very sloppy in the open... But made up with it in the scrum

Lawes for parling.. Need to build a partnership between launchbury and lawes, young and exciting partnership

Haskell,robshaw and Morgan all deserve to start next week all 3 were outstanding

Cipraini deserves to start burns played OK at best in my eyes! If Lancaster has taken cips he needs to try the boy out!

Then my main point of Johnny may, much improved yes but from his previous performances in a white shirt that's not very difficult, he stills seems very tense and lacking control! Brown doesn't seem to work well with him and the back 3 needs to be a working unit and brown is an obvious 1st name on the team sheet!

Think the hardest choice will be the centre partnership

England are in a brilliant predicament taking an under strength squad to NZ and competing to the last minute and now have big reinforcements. One win is all we need to put us on a brilliant road to the World Cup

 

[exeter]

I'm pretty sure the Youngs bros will come back strongly next season (as I think the Welsh will) - they know now that Webber and Dickson are there to take their places if they're not on song.

 

[RugbyWale]

Not sure if Dickson is good enough for England see him as a myler type of player, outstanding club player but not sure he can step up to world class

 

[j'nuh]

How do you coach passing out of someone?

Through lack of use, I guess? I can't remember who - you? Peat? - someone put up a comparison in the way Youngs played between two times, a modern Youngs, and a 2010 Youngs. It showed a very noticeable increase in kicks, with a decrease in passing and a big decrease in the number of runs, IIRC. The stats confirm what seems pretty apparent to be honest. As time has gone on, the Tigers have turned Youngs into a fairly risk-averse box kicker.

I can remember quite clearly that in the 2011 World Cup cycle, it was precisely because at some point Care became ponderous and inaccurate in the pass, that he lost his place to Youngs. How times change! The sad thing is, that the 2010 Youngs was the best scrum-half we have had in years. He was not far off Genia.

 

[Mumbles119]

On England, the two first fives both looked better than Owen Farrell.

On the AB's.
Very poor showing.
Rusty rusty rusty.
Expecting a massive improvement in the space of just one week.
I also expect the pons to get better as well.
Bodes well for the second test.

For England this was the one that got away. Leadership looks an issue for them.

For the AB's the tight five were disappointing and that is partly because they're not that good and partly because England has a wide variety of excellent top drawer tight 5 players to choose from.
I expect more problems for our tight 5 during the next two matches.
Parling and Lawes are possibly the best locks in the world and Launchbury is close to them.

Hi Jonesboy

Could you clarify why you say 'leadership looks an issue' for England?

I thought Robshaw was superb as a leading role model to the whole team. I also thought that other players stepped up and took decisions well too, like Parling, Burns, Brown

Just not sure what your view is. Ta muchly

 

[goodNumber10]

Was their enough support to take the contact - he could have been wrapped up and given the penalty away? In the situation he was in I think he was right to take the risk - I'm pretty sure New Zealand would have done.

They wouldn't, and that's the difference in the teams they don't take 50/50 risks - that's why they are clinical, they are patient and wait until they get a genuine opportunity, they don't conceed the ball for no reason (normally). The player would have slowed down, looked for support and then taken the contact on is terms.

Eastmond is well capable of making those passes, Brown should have held his depth... unless he was anticipating a kick, then he had nothing to gain by being so flat.

Yet he didn't make the pass did he? The ball was high, and Brown had to leap for it (i'm actually wondering if it was meant for May not Brown). The issue with Brown was he was running inwards not too flat. He'd run a decent support line, and at that point had clearly come up thinking Eastmond had run a blind alley and was starting to angle inwards to support an offload on the short.

It was a 50/50 pass, and it didn't come off.... it's not a criticism of Eastmond, nor brown, but it was a mistake.

As i said we made enough line breaks ot geta try but lack of composure meant we didn't - that's to be expected with the new blood in the team.

 

[exeter]

I don't think we need them to be world class, although Dickson was very good in the AIs, but I think they could be useful test players who could step in at short notice and do a job. If Youngs and Burns form a good partnership at Leicester, they could be the ones to put the real pressure on Care and Farrell.

 

[goodNumber10]

Hi Jonesboy

Could you clarify why you say 'leadership looks an issue' for England?

I thought Robshaw was superb as a leading role model to the whole team. I also thought that other players stepped up and took decisions well too, like Parling, Burns, Brown

Just not sure what your view is. Ta muchly

He's right. on that last try, who was organising the defence? getting the blind side stacked and shutting down that option. with a short side liek that you have to force them to go open by loading the blind. that needs leadership, someone takes control and makes them do what they are supposed to.

*EDIT: just checked the try again, and i'm convinced that May made the wrong decision - they are numbered up, Marler on Smith (Ben) and May on Smith (Conrad), he should have stayed mirrored up and let Marler deal with smith. Marler should have been wider, and youngs should have stepped into the guard position, or vice versa... again it's a harsh call on May, but I think he got it wrong. If you're going to shoot the line like that you have to make it ball and all, not an ankle biter.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Agree Mumbles, I don't think leadership is the issue.

This said, the moment the play ended with Yarde not moving away, Robshaw needed to beeline to Owens and have a word in his ear about the lack of a yellow for NZ earlier; just put the doubt in his mind, even if it's futile.

 

[Mumbles119]

Both those points make sense (thanks goodnumber10 and Henry)

For marshalling defence against the NZ try, I know England were a man down, but the gap did seem too large for just May and Marler to cover. I thought Youngs was also a bit to blame with this, he really did have a poor game.

Maybe the leadership gap is the scrum half position?

I also like Robshaws style of leadership and how he communicates with the Ref. I know he could have more impact if he needled and questioned more, but I think this would damage the honourable (and I see as inspiring) personality he genuinely has. Other captains can take the needling of a Ref too far and it can backfire on them, e.g. O'Connell for Munster.

Edit: actually I am not sure that Yarde was still off when the try was scored. Can someone confirm this please? Can't rewatch right now

 

[donmcdazzle]

For all the chat about under strength side and second stringers etc, from what I'm seeing from you English guys is like 3 or 4 changes max to the starting team?

Does this mean you guys think that most of the second stringers should actually now be first stringers? Or that the other guys wouldn't have made such a big difference? The pre game chat was as if a whole new XV would be coming in.

 

[nzlizard]

Stats:


View attachment 2978


Interesting to look at the statistical dominance from England, although it's just stats. The Attacking section especially is very much to England's advantage.

This is interesting, kinda felt we were behind on the stats most of the game and this really clarifies it.

Have to be impressed with the AB's winning after seeing this, in saying that though England are gonna be a force very soon.

I have to admit I don't know alot about the mix / age of the squad, but if you can keep that core squad and just get experience it will only get better.

 

[j'nuh]

For all the chat about under strength side and second stringers etc, from what I'm seeing from you English guys is like 3 or 4 changes max to the starting team?

Does this mean you guys think that most of the second stringers should actually now be first stringers? Or that the other guys wouldn't have made such a big difference? The pre game chat was as if a whole new XV would be coming in.

It's a funny thing. For ages, there appeared to be some kind of consensus on this forum in regards to England selections. Now people seem to be splitting. I think that's a good sign. Before it would be clear that there was one particularly good player in each position. Now people are a lot more split in their opinions.

As far as I'm concerned though, the following are England's best 23:

Corbisiero, Webber, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola, Care, Farrell, May, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Yarde, Brown
Hartley, Marler, Wilson, Attwood, Morgan, Dickson, Burns/Cipriani/Ford, Burrell

So I make it 10 or 11 out of 23 of England's first-choice squad missing for the first test and 8 from the starting team.

 

[Captain Robshaw]

First time poster here. I think the mix of injuries and unavailables has really helped us long-term. The strength in depth we've had to foster has really strengthened our selections.

We now appear to have 4 or maybe even 5 equal 10s - Farrell, Ford, Burns, Myler, Cipriani, Slade - certainly Farrell, Burns and Slade are practically like for like. The forwards are developing nicely, though we've been very unlucky with injuries at prop - they really need protecting at International level.

Have to say, I'm still not convinced about our wingers selection. We seemed to be blessed with many more options now than in years gone by but at test level, we seem to struggle to get top-class performances out of them.

I have to ask though, what happened to Nowell? I thought he was one of the biggest success stories of the 6 nations. Would certainly have him in over May on recent performances.

 

[barkinghooker]

I have to ask though, what happened to Nowell? I thought he was one of the biggest success stories of the 6 nations. Would certainly have him in over May on recent performances.[/QUOTE]


Nowell is recovering from an operation.