[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (1st Test)

[smartcooky]

This is one that has me puzzled



Please watch the video from about 71:52 on the game clock (YouTube 4:46)

1. It wasn't a tackle on Cipriani, it was a Law 14 situation (player on the ground with the ball, no tackle) so no gate, therefore Black 20 (Vito) was OK to come in from where he did

2. Nigel Owens says "ruck now!" just after Black 13 starts to join directly behind the ball

3. Black 16 joins from well back behind the ball drives directly over it (so much so that he knocks it with his knee)

4. When the ball comes loose, Black 21 moves in from an onside position and picks up the ball.

So who did Owens penalise for side entry, and why, because I cannot see a penalty there? Owens says "in the side, not through the gate", but there is no gate at the ruck, only at the tackle.

What I see is a textbook example of winning a turnover driving opponents directly off the ball.

 

[Peat]

My guess is that Owens felt the first AB to join the ruck (13?) swung round and was rucking from the side, despite starting through the gate. I believe he pinged Robshaw for similar-ish in the first half - bound on, but then came around the side to kick the ball away.

 

[goodNumber10]

I did think at the time that was an odd call. I can only think he thought they both came from the right of the gate...

He seems to penalise Smith who comes right of centre of the ruck and possibly not through the gate.

 

[Big Ewis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3y0CD2CoCs&feature=kp

But yes, I agree.

excellent !!! Really really good.

And agreed Rich Taff. Anyways, I think it's too bad England would LOOSE the game after being so close...it really 'would of' made a difference to have all their players yesterday.

 

[William18]

He penalised Mealamu in that situation and I thought it was a strange call at the time.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Dagg was poor. Perhaps not awful, but 4 handling errors in 50 minutes of rugby it not very good! The problem is this is pretty typical for him these days. Quite frankly I wouldn't even pick him in the AB's squad if everyone was fit.

He's been carrying an injury.

The All Blacks only other injury concern is fullback Israel Dagg who was subbed off early in the second half with sore thigh.

Hansen said the injury was related to a patella knee problem Dagg's been carrying for the past month.

"He's been playing on it and it only really effects his kicking. That's something we'll look at this week and decide whether we need to keep pushing that and limiting his training load on it, or we make some changes and let him have a week off and get it right."

Beauden Barrett replaced an out-of-sorts Dagg in Auckland, while wing Ben Smith is the other obvious fullback option in the squad.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/10133240/Read-and-Savea-a-chance-for-second-test

 

[Darwin]

He's been carrying an injury.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/10133240/Read-and-Savea-a-chance-for-second-test

While I'm sure the injury won't be helping his current form, he has been poor for the last few years. I'm not surprised to hear that the injury effects his kicking, as he wasn't getting near as much distance as usual with his punting (his powerful punt is one of his only good points!). With any luck this injury will rule him out for a few tests, as no matter how poorly he plays the AB's selectors won't drop him from the starting lineup.....

 

[William18]

Most of Dagg's mistakes weren't even his fault. There was the one he dropped when he was semi tackled in the air. I can see why Owens didn't give a penalty but to blame Dagg is tough. Then he dropped that ridiculous pass from Nonu which gave him no chance. Aside from that Dagg did some really nice runs and was probably our most threatening outside back. I think Piutau has done enough to warrant selection over Dagg but I wouldn't put Ben Smith there. Ben Smith has been consistent performer and should be kept there. If we want to talk about players who made errors well Ben Smith was found out of position quite a lot and dropped kicks as well. I don't think Dagg should be singled out for his performance.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Hahahaha just go and read some of the English papers online! They're already claiming England are on their way to a RWC win in some cases.

Not any of the serious papers.

 

[RWC2011Fan]

So for the 2nd test, do you guys think the All Blacks will react to this match with a near flawless performance in Dunedin or will it be another tight affair now that England will be back to full-strength?

 

[Captain Robshaw]

So for the 2nd test, do you guys think the All Blacks will react to this match with a near flawless performance in Dunedin or will it be another tight affair now that England will be back to full-strength?

I think probably, hopefully a bit of both. It is intriguing though. It might be that despite our lack of experience, that was our best chance of a win this tour. NZ are bound to be better next time around. A lot of good players coming back for England though.

 

[Peat]

He penalised Mealamu in that situation and I thought it was a strange call at the time.

Did he? I guess if Owens thought the ball was still in the ruck, that's the right call, but I can't say I'd agree it was, so...

 

[exeter]

<i>Nigel Owens says "ruck now!" just after Black 13 starts to join directly behind the ball</i>

Think you'll find he says ruck now just after Youngs joins the ruck and just before Smith joins having not come in through the gate.

 

[Draggs]

So for the 2nd test, do you guys think the All Blacks will react to this match with a near flawless performance in Dunedin or will it be another tight affair now that England will be back to full-strength?

I think we could see the All Blacks win again, to claim the series. We also could see England with another spirited performance to level it up. Lastly, we can't rule out a draw.

 

[SomeOke]

I have a feeling England might go backwards while NZ get better. No insult to England and I really hope this isn't the case, and we have a good match but it's just an inkling I have.

 

[goodNumber10]

<i>Nigel Owens says "ruck now!" just after Black 13 starts to join directly behind the ball</i>

Think you'll find he says ruck now just after Youngs joins the ruck and just before Smith joins having not come in through the gate.

absolutely correct. He does indeed say ruck now, and smith is to the right of the gate.

 

[Darwin]

Most of Dagg's mistakes weren't even his fault. There was the one he dropped when he was semi tackled in the air. I can see why Owens didn't give a penalty but to blame Dagg is tough. Then he dropped that ridiculous pass from Nonu which gave him no chance. Aside from that Dagg did some really nice runs and was probably our most threatening outside back. I think Piutau has done enough to warrant selection over Dagg but I wouldn't put Ben Smith there. Ben Smith has been consistent performer and should be kept there. If we want to talk about players who made errors well Ben Smith was found out of position quite a lot and dropped kicks as well. I don't think Dagg should be singled out for his performance.

Are you Israel Dagg's mother?

I did notice the tackle in the air incident, and that should have been a penalty to New Zealand as you suggest. However if you watch closely Dagg had actually dropped the ball before the English player (Haskell) made contact. It was going to be a knock-on regardless of whether he was tackled in the air or not. The knock-on (from Nonu's poor pass) wasn't entirely his fault, but he should share some of the blame - it was a poor pass, but not 'un-catchable'. . If I remember correctly he also dropped a bomb under no pressure, knocked on another pass (again under no pressure), got taken in touch when we were hard on attack (he should have stepped/passed in and kept the ball alive), and got held up and had the ball turned over (after running straight into Ben Morgan on the counter-attack for some reason). 5-6 clear errors in 50 minutes of rugby. Even if he wasn't completely responsible for all of these errors it is pretty clear he made a lot of mistakes!

Ben Smith made one obvious errors (an unforced knock-on from a kick), but that is the only major one I recall. I can't recall him being caught out of position much at all. When the English found space in behind it was usually on Jane's wing (not saying Jane was at fault, just an observation). He did drift in-field on defense a couple of times to help his inside man (who looked to be struggling for pace) - these could have proved to me mistakes if the English player had passed the ball to the unmarked, but Smith looked to have read the situation correctly (as the English player - May it was on one occasion - didn't even look like passing). I would say Ben Smith had a very quiet match, but he certainly wasn't plagued with errors like Dagg.

Dagg did do a couple of good things (made his tackles and made a break), but overall he was poor. I don't think it is at all unfair to point this out. He wasn't the only one who was poor, but his mistakes were certainly the most noticeable. The point is if everyone is fit he shouldn't be starting anyway, as he hasn't been that good for the AB's for several years now (and even worse at Super Rugby level). I don't understand why you wouldn't put Ben Smith at fullback. Yes he has played outstandingly well on the wing, but he is better at fullback. Much better. He offers so much more from fullback than he does from wing - his ability to counter-attack from the back would bring a whole new dimension to the AB's attack. Piutau is still far better suited to the wing than fullback at this stage of his career (at test level), as his decision making at the back still needs a lot of work!

 

[smartcooky]

absolutely correct. He does indeed say ruck now, and smith is to the right of the gate.

No he wasn't.

The gate is NOT the width of the ball, it is the whole width of tackled player and the tackler lying on the ground...

[TEXTAREA]Law 15.6
(d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the
ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players' goal
line.[/TEXTAREA]

Here is the diagram from the iRB's "Rugby Ready" document..

In any case, the point is moot, because the gate does not exist once the tackle ends. Owens called "Ruck Now" and Black 13 joined immediately after that. The Laws for joining a ruck are different from those for joining a tackle

[TEXTAREA]Law 16.5 (c) Players joining or rejoining the ruck. A player joining a ruck must do so from behind the
foot of the hindmost team-mate in the ruck. A player may join alongside this hindmost
player. If a player joins the ruck from the opponents' side, or in front of the hindmost teammate,
the player is offside. A player may bind onto an opposition player providing the player
is not otherwise offside.[/TEXTAREA]

Black 13 did EXACTLY what the Law required

Owens did not call or signal advantage when Black 13 joined so the penalty could not have been against him.

 

[William18]

Having watched the replay one thing I was wondering, Marlan Yarde was sent off at 69:26 and came back on after the restart to the All Blacks try at 79:04. How do they measure the ten minutes in the sin bin? It's not a big issue but I remember noticing at the time that Yarde came back too soon.

 

[smartcooky]

Having watched the replay one thing I was wondering, Marlan Yarde was sent off at 69:26 and came back on after the restart to the All Blacks try at 79:04. How do they measure the ten minutes in the sin bin? It's not a big issue but I remember noticing at the time that Yarde came back too soon.

I think part of the answer is that the TV/ground game clock is not the official game time, i.e. the official time-keeper's clock and the TV clock are not linked together. How often have we seen the TV clock run well past 80:00 before the siren went? Sometimes, the siren goes before the 80:00 is reached.

I've asked on the referees forum. There are a couple of aussie refs there who have run the official clock for Super Rugby matches.