[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (1st Test)

[Crapspray]

My cockerill comment was a joke.

Response to munstermuffin. Sorry, I should have used the quote system.

We're all aware the idea of Cockerill being a good coach is a joke...

 

[RoosTah]

I agree with the above comments. Next year at home these guys are going to be super tough to beat you can see the parallels to the 2003 team... I just suspect at this stage this bunch might be a bit to inexperienced. I just hope for the AB's sake we can trounce them atleast once in the next two games otherwise I think Englands confidence is going to be very high for the WC next year.

It's still a hard game to read in a lot of ways - the All Blacks handling was awful and their tactical kicking was below their usual standard I thought. Also, what's the story with Dan Carter at the moment? Cruden is solid, but he's no Carter.

 

[munstermuffin]

As I said though I don't think Lancaster gets enough credit. He's a likeable guy and been honest pulled England out of the **** and put respect and honor back in the shirt. Also Andy Farrell may be seen as a dick by some but he's an excellent coach with benefit of experience in both codes. Rowntree well he's known to be a superb coach which showed today

 

[barkinghooker]

Did england gain any points in the rankings for a five point defeat? I was really pleased and not really surprised. Yarde didn't do much but was unlucky with the yellow considering the abs should of had a few. May had his best game. I hope Ashton gets a chance because he would of followed Eastmond around the pitch. Can't wait till next week!!

 

[Darwin]

It's still a hard game to read in a lot of ways - the All Blacks handling was awful and their tactical kicking was below their usual standard I thought. Also, what's the story with Dan Carter at the moment? Cruden is solid, but he's no Carter.

Carter is on sabbatical. He will be back playing Super Rugby after the test break. Cruden is not Carter, but when on form he is just as dangerous as Carter. He's only just back from injury and is nowhere near his best - at his best it is becoming a 50:50 call between him and Carter....

 

[Crapspray]

Did england gain any points in the rankings for a five point defeat?

Don't get points for a defeat. A draw can give points if the gap is big enough, but the system is designed so that only by beating sides ranked above or equal can you overtake them. The All Blacks got none because they're ranked so far ahead of England.

 

[Peat]

wait so everybody can say who they think should come in next test and say who should be dropped but I cant ? Well fair ****ing enough peat I'll just keep my opinions to myself and make sure I don't contribute to the forum unless I get your permission.

Oh, you're actually suggesting Ashton come in? I thought you were criticising Yarde and using Ashton as an example to make your point, when mentioning him doesn't help your point at all. I didn't think you'd actually be suggesting Ashton because that would be completely absurd and somewhat classless.

Yarde was poor and his lack of experience is mildly worrying - but he's not going to get it any other way. He has more test level attributes than Ashton, he has a higher ceiling and just as much domestic form. He should be backed to keep improving while he's on a relative high and if he isn't, then he should be replaced by a player showing equal aptitude for test rugby, which is not Ashton. Is there any argument for Ashton other than he was good a long time ago and he's scored a good amount of tries in a highly dominant team?

 

[j'nuh]

My cockerill comment was a joke.

I thought Twelvetrees is one of the few Glous bright sparks this season?

Yep, definitely. Which makes me wonder just how good Twelvetress may become under good coaching.

Funny thing is that it was the Nigel Davies-Paul Moriarty setup that brought Morgan into the professional and international game. Moriarty has never been known as a good coach. I can see that the Scarlets fans were complaining about him back in 2009. Still, Morgan shone in a similar coaching setup, yet couldn't at Gloucester. Again, quite excited to see what all these players will do for Gloucester under competent management. Kind of wish Freddie had stayed to see how good he could have gotten. (Although I am more than happy with Hook!)

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Yep, definitely. Which makes me wonder just how good Twelvetress may become under good coaching.

Funny thing is that it was the Nigel Davies-Paul Moriarty setup that brought Morgan into the professional and international game. Moriarty has never been known as a good coach. I can see that the Scarlets fans were complaining about him back in 2009. Still, Morgan shone in a similar coaching setup, yet couldn't at Gloucester. Again, quite excited to see what all these players will do for Gloucester under competent management. Kind of wish Freddie had stayed to see how good he could have gotten. (Although I am more than happy with Hook!)

Glous where so lucky Perpignan got relegated when they did otherwise it would have been very slim pickings.

 

[GoTheNaki]

Nigel Owens had a relatively sub-par game. Those knock-ons had me asking, "really..?". Spent a lot of time with scrums, especially getting the ball in.

In regards to the teams:

England really had the ABs scratching their heads for 70 odd minutes. The standouts for me were Eastmond, Tuilagi, Morgan and Robshaw. Burns didn't impress me with anything other than his punts and some defense. I feel if Cipriani had more game-time with the two outside of him, they could seriously done some telltale damage to the ABs. Its a shame he's not really appreciated by the British media, he's dynamite.

In regards to the ABs, well... Where do I start? Being the 3rd, almost 4th best Fullback in the NZ conference this season really doesn't warrant a start for me. Dagg was just unimpressive, he really seems to be on that downward spiral ala Isaia Toeava. The guy only just turned 26.. Barrett, is, overrated. Nonu doesn't know how to run it straight anymore, and will instead just kick the ball to the opposing team. Cory Jane is past it, I'm sorry, that surgery last year has made him quite obviously slower, Andre Taylor had made him look good all season. Cruden.. Well.. It sure showed that he's hardly played more than 120minutes in how long? Messam should be watching his back..

And what I don't understand, is the British media. "Understrength English team", blahblahblah.

But:

Dan Carter
Kieran Reid
Savea


How influential do they assume a couple of forwards will be when you miss two IRB POTY players and a current arguable top3 winger..

 

[Peat]

GoTheNaki - The difference is, those are the sort of injury issues (ok, the sabbatical isn't, but sort of like) that hits any team. Missing a few players doesn't really qualify you for Understrength. Having about a quarter of your squad (rough guess) unavailable for selection due to scheduling matters is a different kettle of fish.

That said, Read and Savea could have made big differences imo.

 

[Darwin]

I'm a bit surprised how much Yarde is being criticized. I didn't notice him being that bad at all. Obviously he conceded a yellow card, but you can understand why he killed the ball in that situation..... He didn't get many chances in attack, but he was physical and accurate in defense - he made a couple of crucial tackles. To be fair I wasn't really taking much notice to the individual players in white, so I may have missed something!

 

[j'nuh]

Oh, you're actually suggesting Ashton come in? I thought you were criticising Yarde and using Ashton as an example to make your point, when mentioning him doesn't help your point at all. I didn't think you'd actually be suggesting Ashton because that would be completely absurd and somewhat classless.

Yarde was poor and his lack of experience is mildly worrying - but he's not going to get it any other way. He has more test level attributes than Ashton, he has a higher ceiling and just as much domestic form. He should be backed to keep improving while he's on a relative high and if he isn't, then he should be replaced by a player showing equal aptitude for test rugby, which is not Ashton. Is there any argument for Ashton other than he was good a long time ago and he's scored a good amount of tries in a highly dominant team?

Was Yarde poor? He got out of position a couple of times early on - hardly too much of a concern for someone practically on their first real test. Other than that, he wasn't a liability. Made his tackles, did well in the kick-chase, no real blunders. To be honest, I don't think he got any quality ball to work with. (It's often the case for right wingers - players find it easier to pass right-to-left, so left wingers often get better quality ball.) I hope that Lancaster isn't set in stone about wingers being fixed to their wings. I'd like to see Yarde come into play a bit more.

 

[j'nuh]

Nigel Owens had a relatively sub-par game. Those knock-ons had me asking, "really..?". Spent a lot of time with scrums, especially getting the ball in.

In regards to the teams:

England really had the ABs scratching their heads for 70 odd minutes. The standouts for me were Eastmond, Tuilagi, Morgan and Robshaw. Burns didn't impress me with anything other than his punts and some defense. I feel if Cipriani had more game-time with the two outside of him, they could seriously done some telltale damage to the ABs. Its a shame he's not really appreciated by the British media, he's dynamite.

In regards to the ABs, well... Where do I start? Being the 3rd, almost 4th best Fullback in the NZ conference this season really doesn't warrant a start for me. Dagg was just unimpressive, he really seems to be on that downward spiral ala Isaia Toeava. The guy only just turned 26.. Barrett, is, overrated. Nonu doesn't know how to run it straight anymore, and will instead just kick the ball to the opposing team. Cory Jane is past it, I'm sorry, that surgery last year has made him quite obviously slower, Andre Taylor had made him look good all season. Cruden.. Well.. It sure showed that he's hardly played more than 120minutes in how long? Messam should be watching his back..

And what I don't understand, is the British media. "Understrength English team", blahblahblah.

But:

Dan Carter
Kieran Reid
Savea


How influential do they assume a couple of forwards will be when you miss two IRB POTY players and a current arguable top3 winger..

By a couple of forwards, do you mean:
Corbisiero, M. Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Wood, B. Vunipola, Care, Farrell, Ford, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Wade, Foden

All but one or two of these players would at least be in the 23 normally. Most of these are starting XV players.

For example, your scrum would have been absolutely destroyed if we hadn't had the front row injuries we had. Marler-Hartley-Cole replaced by Corbisiero-Webber-Wilson would have stuffed the AB scrum, considering the AB scrum was struggling at parts today against a depleted front row. Morgan carried well - well wait until you see Binny. Lawes and Care are world XV candidates. etc.

 

[William18]

Yeah just watched the Fekitoa one again its just a penalty at most even that's dubious id have to see it in slow mo as fekitoa seemed to join right and was over the ball was certainly one of the first players there. Nothing in it imo.

Fekitoa was done for not releasing the tackled player. That's why Owens said he was not yellow carded because it was a timing issue. Fekitoa was on his feet and competing legally for the ball. I think there is a difference between what Fekitoa did when he genuinely tried to compete for the ball and Yarde who just lay there on the wrong side.

 

[Peat]

Was Yarde poor? He got out of position a couple of times early on - hardly too much of a concern for someone practically on their first real test. Other than that, he wasn't a liability. Made his tackles, did well in the kick-chase, no real blunders. To be honest, I don't think he got any quality ball to work with. (It's often the case for right wingers - players find it easier to pass right-to-left, so left wingers often get better quality ball.) I hope that Lancaster isn't set in stone about wingers being fixed to their wings. I'd like to see Yarde come into play a bit more.

Anonymous might be a better word I guess... he certainly wasn't good!

 

[GoTheNaki]

Peat - I think its 6 at maximum..? If they all manage to start above their peers next week.

What NZ missed were line breakers, they had one on the bench in Fekitoa and Savea/Read are both injured. That and on top of the fact that NZ just didn't play their regular fast-paced ball, they weren't really allowed to. They were just made to look normal. Its easy to break lines when you have two people watching Savea or Read.

Is anyone else missing Hosea Gear after seeing his double earlier this week ?

Ben Smith at Fullback, Savea & Gear on the wing... Let's gooooooooo.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't even really think Yarde was that out of position.
The one that the commentary kept harping on about, when Brown caught the last man....well....Brown caught the last man. So what? Someone had to mark the 2nd to last and someone had to mark the last, just because Yarde is the winger doesn't mean he has to stand on the wing, if Brown was there to make the tackle (which he was) who's to say that wasn't how they train to defend that?



Going off of what our, presumed, first choice would have been for this test then from the 23 we missed:
Vunipola, Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Farrell, Burrell - so that's 7, plus one of Goode/Ashton on the bench so probably 8, then we've also got 4 injuries (Corbs, Cole, Care, Twelvetrees).

 

[Kiwiwomble]

Rubbish game...not even the mistakes...the actual gameplay seemed really strange...42 kicks in 45 minutes at one point...just rubbish

 

[j'nuh]

I don't even really think Yarde was that out of position.
The one that the commentary kept harping on about, when Brown caught the last man....well....Brown caught the last man. So what? Someone had to mark the 2nd to last and someone had to mark the last, just because Yarde is the winger doesn't mean he has to stand on the wing, if Brown was there to make the tackle (which he was) who's to say that wasn't how they train to defend that?

There were a couple of times early on where he came out of the defensive line when he ought to have been drifting.