[2014 Mid-Year Tests] New Zealand vs England (1st Test)

[GoTheNaki]

By a couple of forwards, do you mean:
Corbisiero, M. Vunipola, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Wood, B. Vunipola, Care, Farrell, Ford, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Wade, Foden

All but one or two of these players would at least be in the 23 normally. Most of these are starting XV players.

For example, your scrum would have been absolutely destroyed if we hadn't had the front row injuries we had. Marler-Hartley-Cole replaced by Corbisiero-Webber-Wilson would have stuffed the AB scrum, considering the AB scrum was struggling at parts today against a depleted front row. Morgan carried well - well wait until you see Binny. Lawes and Care are world XV candidates. etc.

You didn't answer the question. Do you really think these forwards, an overrated #10 and who, Twelvetrees over Eastmond will make THAT much difference?

 

[Tony Manx]

I don't even really think Yarde was that out of position.
The one that the commentary kept harping on about, when Brown caught the last man....well....Brown caught the last man. So what? Someone had to mark the 2nd to last and someone had to mark the last, just because Yarde is the winger doesn't mean he has to stand on the wing, if Brown was there to make the tackle (which he was) who's to say that wasn't how they train to defend that?

I agree with that and thought that Yarde did nothing wrong.....the yellow was an inevitability for slowing the ball down as he "had" to do......there is not one AB that would not have done (and did) the same thing! In addition, Yarde hardly saw the ball and is hardly the size to be a crash ball player like May.

 

[Aristodemus]

So we were missing our first choice front row, Lawes and Binny in the forwards (Wood also but I actually think Haskell played very well so won't include him) and our half-back pair and you suggest we were not understrength? Is that right?

 

[Tony Manx]

So we were missing our first choice front row, Lawes and Binny in the forwards (Wood also but I actually think Haskell played very well so won't include him) and our half-back pair and you suggest we were not understrength? Is that right?

Morgan did everything that was asked of him and Vunipola would have added nothing more!

 

[Aristodemus]

We have been using Binny for 60min then bringing on Morgan around 60, it would have added something over taking off Haskell for Johnson. Not a shred of doubt about that.

 

[j'nuh]

You didn't answer the question. Do you really think these forwards, an overrated #10 and who, Twelvetrees over Eastmond will make THAT much difference?

Corbisiero is easily the best loosehead England have. He is the Ferris of England. Exceptional talent who appears to be having recurrent injuries that is stopping him from regularly playing. He has recently been, in many peoples' opinions, England's best player and arguably the best loosehead in the world. (There are a few contenders tbf.) If not Corbisiero, Mako is certainly an upgrade on Mullan.

Hartley is easily ahead of Gray. Gray didn't even deserve to be picked from the available players. Should have been Ward. Big improvement to the bench.

Cole is miles ahead of Thomas. I cannot stress how much the gap in quality between these two players is.

Lawes was England's second best player in the Six Nations. Arguably the best he has ever been. Parling was good, but Lawes is a noticeable upgrade.

Billy Vunipola is an absolute beast in the carry. Perhaps only a minor upgrade on Morgan, but certainly having one of them on the bench greatly improves our bench.

Care is eaaaaaaaaaaaaaasily the best scrum-half in England.

Farrell - well, I'm not sure if he'd have improved England today. Maybe, maybe not.

Twelvetrees is a personal favourite. I seem to like him more than most. So yes, I do think England are a lot better when they have him.

Notice how much earlier the ABs emptied the bench btw? Yeah, a normal England team would have unleashed some great replacements and earlier.

 

[Tony Manx]

Lynagh feels that Vunipola should "come back even though he was obviously very tired last week as he is a special player"......

PS Lynagh is (?was) an employee of Nigel Wray's!!!!!

 

[austingtir]

Fekitoa was done for not releasing the tackled player. That's why Owens said he was not yellow carded because it was a timing issue. Fekitoa was on his feet and competing legally for the ball. I think there is a difference between what Fekitoa did when he genuinely tried to compete for the ball and Yarde who just lay there on the wrong side.

Yeah, I know that its just one or two of our english friends with their rose tinted glasses on didnt seem to notice. Id still like to see a break down of the slow mo. To me its was pretty well done by Fekitoa under the circumstances he probably did not release though.

 

[exeter]

How influential do they assume a couple of forwards will be when you miss two IRB POTY players and a current arguable top3 winger..

I agreed with most of your analysis, but this wasn't about a couple of forwards. England were missing five first-choice forwards and 3-4 first-choice backs in the XV alone. This is not to mention various 2nd and even 3rd choice players.

Before this match, England's first-choice 23 would have been: Corbisiero, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola, Care, Farrell, May/Yarde, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Ashton, Brown / Marler/Vunipola, Wilson, Youngs, Parling, Morgan, Youngs, Ford, Foden

 

[austingtir]

Peat - I think its 6 at maximum..? If they all manage to start above their peers next week.

What NZ missed were line breakers, they had one on the bench in Fekitoa and Savea/Read are both injured. That and on top of the fact that NZ just didn't play their regular fast-paced ball, they weren't really allowed to. They were just made to look normal. Its easy to break lines when you have two people watching Savea or Read.

Is anyone else missing Hosea Gear after seeing his double earlier this week ?

Ben Smith at Fullback, Savea & Gear on the wing... Let's gooooooooo.

Yep if we'd had Gear back for this year it would of been nice. He'll be back next year though. I do think Jane and Daggs days have got to be numbered though. I just cant believe B Smith has been held out of the starting 15 spot for this long and I reckon its going to cost us.

I also think Slade should be getting told to warm up out of our three current first fives he is actually the form player imo.

 

[Aristodemus]

Not Ashton, Nowell. Other than that I could see Lancaster naming that team.

 

[RoosTah]

Next week will be fascinating... in a way, this reminds me a little of the Irish series a few years back - the Irish came out and almost knocked off NZ in the first test (or was it the second?). Anyway, by the third test the ABs had shaken off the cob-webs and ended up hammering the poor Irish 60-0 or something.

So in a sense, I don't know who this game should worry more - NZ or England. For England, they dominated the whole game pretty well, but ultimately they still lost, and to an AB team that traditionally botches its first hit-out of the year (but usually plays weaker teams too). For the ABs, they're having their first up match, but playing an England team missing a few stars (admittedly so are the Kiwis), and had to rely on a bit of good luck to win in the end.

 

[Chikwa]

I don't understand why people are so eager to get rid of Manu either, the guy is a match winner. I thought Eastmond Tuilagi was great, it's the timing of Kyle's passing and the extra space that is there with Tuilagi taking the defence's attention, I really hope we see it in all three tests.

I agree .

 

[SomeOke]

Wow, really impressed with the English side! Especially considering it's a second string one, they are going to be very dangerous competitors if they can keep it up.
I thought Eastmond and Manu were both great, it makes such a big different when momentum isn't stifled in midfield, like a few others in this thread I've never understood the desire to drop Tuilagi maybe he's poor for his club, but whenever I watch him play for England he's consistently their most dangerous back. Burns was good and controlled the game well, which I was not expecting after reading this thread . The English forwards were hungry and I thought the loose trio was very impressive particularly Morgan and Robshaw.

If this is the second side NZ might be in trouble next week .

That said it's hard to comment on the All Blacks performance. They often have slow starts in tours and it's hard to form a cohesive side with less than a week to prepare. The only comments I could make have already been made - Ben Smith should be starting at fullback (I said it before the game and it's even more pertinent now), and Cruden didn't really get the back line going at all perhaps due to being out for so long, it's unfair on Barret to play him at fullback as well, he occasionally plays there for the Hurricanes but his talents are wasted. I didn't think Nonu or Smith were particularly good, and I'm not sure if sticking with them for 2015 is the right call, their class is undeniable but they aren't as effective as they once were, CSmith doesn't have the pace to slither through gaps anymore and Nonu doesn't seem to be able to perform at 100% consistently, if you're just going to select your centres based on defense you might as well be South Africa hue hue.

Anyway promises to be an interesting series, unfortunately I can see England taking a step back with their selections next week when some of the "1st choice" players become available youngs should go and Lawes should be in (because he's awesome) but other than that I'd keep things the same, it's enough to make a difference considering ASmith was in my opinion NZ's best player and Youngs was probably Englands worst.

On Nigel Owens (because I can't resist)
I didn't think he was particularly bad and made the usual amount of reffing mistakes.
On the two most controversial calls, what Fekitoa did and what Yarde did were completely different Yarde cynically didn't release, where as Fekitoa attempted to affect a steal - these only get yellows when it's done consistently on the line and comparing them and shouting "inconsistency" makes no sense as they were very different infringements.

As for the one "blatant" knock on if a ball is grubbered on, and a players fumbles and it goes backwards, the normal forward rules apply - meaning only the direction of the hands matter no momentum of the ball, so if his hands are going forward when he fumbled it it doesn't matter if the ball went backwards from the momentum of the kick, it's still a knock-on.

The only area where the English might consider themselves put upon a bit by the ref was scrums. WP England, <s>take the moral victory and stop whining about the ref.</s> and whining about the ref is completely understandable behaviour. (realized the hypocrisy of a saffer accusing another nationality of ref bashing )

 

[Chikwa]

It will be hard for England next week with new players coming in and a fired up all blacks.The third test will be the best bet.Having wrapped up the series Steve Hansen may experiment.

 

[McTallshort]

It will be hard for England next week with new players coming in and a fired up all blacks.The third test will be the best bet.Having wrapped up the series Steve Hansen may experiment.

Yeah.....lets what happens next week first

 

[Tony Manx]

England, take the moral victory and stop whining about the ref.

I think you will find that most of the more level headed would agree that Owens had a bad game for him and it was a talking point after the game on TV which is unusual.

My understanding is that where you clearly prevent a try using illegal means, you get a card.. Nonu and Fekitoa did exactly that as Owens penalised them and there was every reason to believe that a try would otherwise have been scored. If there was no penalty, there would not have been a yellow and the argument as to whether or not a card should be given for a "different type" of foul is surely a non argument.

But what do I know.........only that his decisions did impact on the game but, even so, England should and could have won that had they taken their chances and not botched up so many moves with poor handling against an under performing AB's!

 

[munstermuffin]

I don't even really think Yarde was that out of position.
The one that the commentary kept harping on about, when Brown caught the last man....well....Brown caught the last man. So what? Someone had to mark the 2nd to last and someone had to mark the last, just because Yarde is the winger doesn't mean he has to stand on the wing, if Brown was there to make the tackle (which he was) who's to say that wasn't how they train to defend that?



Going off of what our, presumed, first choice would have been for this test then from the 23 we missed:
Vunipola, Hartley, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Farrell, Burrell - so that's 7, plus one of Goode/Ashton on the bench so probably 8, then we've also got 4 injuries (Corbs, Cole, Care, Twelvetrees).

Traditionally the 15 does take last man in a lot odder endive set ups now too.

 

[William18]

Can I say that I have actually been impressed about how the English posters have reacted to the loss. I expected more "All Blacks are always favoured by the ref comments".

 

[GoTheNaki]

I agreed with most of your analysis, but this wasn't about a couple of forwards. England were missing five first-choice forwards and 3-4 first-choice backs in the XV alone. This is not to mention various 2nd and even 3rd choice players.

Before this match, England's first-choice 23 would have been: Corbisiero, Hartley, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw, Vunipola, Care, Farrell, May/Yarde, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Ashton, Brown / Marler/Vunipola, Wilson, Youngs, Parling, Morgan, Youngs, Ford, Foden

Its just my problem with the British sports media. I've actually lived in both countries for substantial periods of time to realise what both variations of supporters and media are like. But this game was just a cop out, the only losers in this game were New Zealand, it didn't matter the result, it was strictly lose/lose.

If the ABs beat England by 40+ (example), "second string team, we will see if they can do that next game..", if the ABs beat them by 15 or less, " we can take them, they aren't as unbeatable as the media somehow make them out to be...". Imagine if they lost? The ridiculousness would be unthinkable. After the first game it would be "England: World beaters, favorites for Cup".

I couldn't honestly get excited for this game, in fact I was enjoying the AUS vs FRA game a lot more. Simply for what I stated above.

Biased media is understandable, but you can't help cringe at biased supporters. I actually have critisised NZ a lot more for the way of the win, than England's loss. But, I stick by the fact that NZ were still missing several players who are the best in the world at their positions (or at least voted by the populous in that way) and benefit NZ immensely.