[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[ratsapprentice]

He is performing though... yes he's making errors but he's 21, and playing in a team that seems to have major managerial and player problems.
He (yet again) made the most tackles of any Glos player and played the role of a link-man very well - better than any of the above mentioned players have this season.

We aren't talking about Freddie Burns here - who has completely capitulated to an inexplicable level.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I'm not saying he's as bad as burns or anything, but he's a shadow of his worcester-self.
Not uncommon for players to have a second season dip, though, and he's still playing to a high standard as stats suggest.
If he was playing as well as he was at wuss then he could be pressuring for a spot in the 23 - as it stands he's not.

 

[ratsapprentice]

My point is that you can't use previous form to justify the selection of one player, but ignore previous form for another player who is in the same position.
I guess we just disagree on the notion that the tour to Argentina counts as justification for his selection.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Eeeeh, I guess so.
Morgan has rarely been good for Gloucester but basically always been good for England, though. If Kvesic was a regular player for England it wouldn't matter you'd know whether he'd handle the step up. At the moment there's nothing to suggest he should be ahead of Wood/Robshaw/Binny/Morgan/Johnson in the 4 backrow slots in the side other than knowing how good he was when playing for Worcester.

 

[TheSaffycen]

My point is that you can't use previous form to justify the selection of one player, but ignore previous form for another player who is in the same position.
I guess we just disagree on the notion that the tour to Argentina counts as justification for his selection.

Then you have to say that Morgan should be in the squad, because he had a very good Argentina tour and 6 nations. The problem for them both is that they play in a position in which you struggle to play in a weak pack. Definitely for Morgan because he is never getting the ball in a advantaged position as we know what he can do for England, personally I don't think Kvesic has shown anything near enough to get into the England through the Argentina B tour. Still he will play in the June test and hopefully he will play well but I think Haskell deserves the place ahead of him.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Then you have to say that Morgan should be in the squad, because he had a very good Argentina tour and 6 nations.

Absolutely I never said he shouldn't be.

 

[Patchey]

Ben Morgan as the English Ma'a Nonu?

While we're on the subject of back rows, it would be interesting to hear everyones' opinion of Steffon Armitage. I know some guys here are keen for England to bin the no foreign based players rule and earlier on twitter Will Greenwood said the same. We haven't really talked much about him since the lead up to the South Africa tour in 2012, as since then we've had a fairly well balanced, performing back row.

So, does his form mark him out as an 'exception circumstance' or should he be made to return to the Premiership if he wants more caps?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

The latter.

Yes he's very good, but as long as he's playing abroad then I don't think we should pick him.

 

[TheSaffycen]

He has too play in England personally, otherwise we become wales or South Africa

 

[ratsapprentice]

People who are saying he should be an exception either don't care about the health of our domestic game or are naive about the effect it could have.

Great player, would certainly be there or thereabouts in a selection battle if he played in England.

He was probably unfairly treated by the previous management which hastened his exodus, but he knows the rules.

 

[goodNumber10]

I wouldn't pick Armitage over Robshaw.

There, I've said it.... FLAME ON!

 

[McTallshort]

Armitage did get his chance for England but didnt really take it and SL has always questioned his fitness. Dont forget unlike lots of top players he doesnt have international rugby to worry about and he plays in a very strong pack which frees him to play his game. England tend to play a full on pack game where everyone is expected to clear out etc etc would he fit into that system? Im not sure.

 

[Patchey]

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinks that his skills as a player can't come before the selection policy. The only circumstances in which I'd be happy to see him picked while still at Toulon is if we had a massive injury crisis in the back row or if we didn't have the kind of stable, fairly well balance back row we do now. Otherwise it isn't worth risking the strength of the domestic game by setting a precedent that if you're a good enough player you can leave the Premiership. Personally I don't understand why Wales and Scotland haven't got similar selection policies to outs.

Rats' point about how he was treated under the previous regime and that he will clearly we aware of the rules is interesting. It occurs to me that maybe he doesn't want to play for England. He's had a cap or two but clearly it wasn't a great experience for him. Why go back to international rugby when it would mean greater injury risk, moving away from what is clearly a great lifestyle in the south of France and move to a team where he is unlikely to be making the semis/finals of major competitions every year? The fact his brother was unceremoniously (but rightly) dumped by England in 2012 has also got to be a factored in as well.

 

[Goodey]

The deal between the clubs and the RFU is a very finely balanced thing and England not picking players who're abroad is a key part of the agreement. Having all that break down for the sake of Steffon Armitage is crazy.

 

[TheSaffycen]

He just signed a new Toulon deal if he really wanted to play for England at a home world cup he would have come to play over here. I have no problem with him playing abroad, but you can't have your cake and eat it, though it looks like he might have.

 

[McTallshort]

What else would you want to do with a cake.....

 

[Draggs]

What else would you want to do with a cake.....

Keep it away from Ben Morgan.

 

[McTallshort]

Or Adam Jones...

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Matt played exceptionally well on the Argentina tour too though - he outplayed Tom Wood.

How do you outplay someone who is on your own team, in a complimentary flanker partnership?

Regardless, Kvesic cannot be picked on faith alone, even if you are right in saying he is being punished by the fact that he plays behind a weak Gloucester front 5. That's not to say he hasn't pulled out some good performances still, I know you've pointed to his link-manship as well as his tackles - but surely you yourself wouldn't advocate he plays for England at his very moment based on form? Also I don't believe anyone is putting the boot into Kvesic really, just saying that he's justifiably not a first choice.

Bear in mind that James Haskell has played in a woeful, directionless and often passionless Wasps side this season and still stood out to a huge extent, and thats coming straight back from injury. This is across the game in lots of aspects. I think that when looking at Kvesic at present, the England coaches will look for his "points of differences" and I think you'd have to agree that given the current composition of Englands pack, a high workrate making countless tackles won't be enough to make him stand out. He has got us fans excited because of his promise as a true openside, and that's what we're waiting to see. I agree that maybe his ability to fulfill the person specification of "An Openside Flanker" is somewhat hindered by the way Gloucester are playing, but that's not sufficient justification for him to be first or even second choice right now.

 

[Draggs]

Adam has earned his cake.