[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England vs Barbarians

[ratsapprentice]

They are direct equivalents, in that they are the highest level of domestic competition in each hemisphere.

 

[Patchey]

Super Rugby is the European equivalent - not Premiership equivalent.

Well yes, but obviously not all English teams get to play European rugby consistently while all NZ franchises get to play Super Rugby.

 

[nickdnz]

They are direct equivalents, in that they are the highest level of domestic competition in each hemisphere.

But Super Rugby is not a domestic competition - it is an international one.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Well yes, but obviously not all English teams get to play European rugby consistently while all NZ franchises get to play Super Rugby.

That's precisely the point.

A Kiwi player isn't going to start an AB game off the back of a good ITM season - whereas he might from a good Soup season.
If an English player has a storming European season then it's very possible that he'll end up playing for England.

But Super Rugby is not a domestic competition - it is an international one.

Semantics.

 

[Big Ewis]

FTD can't get a break can he?! :O

well I'm not even saying it's near absurd because, oh wow FTD is such a good 10. But James was shown up big time, BIG TIME in the last few games, especially in the Clermont Saracens game. Kick, kick, kick, kick, kick..............kick. A lot of his passing was just downright wrong decision-making...and then you've got François Trinh-Duc, who's coming off the most complete season of his career, does it all for a FH - but most importantly *attacks* the line hard, with strong intent and intelligently, i.e. exactly what the Barbarians would want at the 10 position....but no, TD off the bench, and BROCK JAMES, yes Brock James to lead the attack for the Baabaas...
Seriously worthy of criticism....but eh, anyways. It's just a Baabaa's game in the end...who gives a shht who plays well for the Baabaas.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well yes, but obviously not all English teams get to play European rugby consistently while all NZ franchises get to play Super Rugby.

You do know that there is a whole thread explaining the difference between this whole debate and that there is a difference between the Super Rugby Franchise teams and the normal NZ and SA rugby unions??

 

[Patchey]

That's precisely the point.

A Kiwi player isn't going to start an AB game off the back of a good ITM season - whereas he might from a good Soup season.
If an English player has a storming European season then it's very possible that he'll end up playing for England.

Yeah, but we don't have enough of out top tier players given exposure to European rugby whereas every All Black has exposure to Super Rugby (and usually quite a bit of it). For example, I'd say Freddie Burns playing for England right now is like an ITM player playing for the All Blacks. But an ITM player would never play of NZ in a full test because there is a next level of competition above the ITM which guys have to prove themselves in before becoming internationals.

You do know that there is a whole thread explaining the difference between this whole debate and that there is a difference between the Super Rugby Franchise teams and the normal NZ and SA rugby unions??

Oh yeah, I understand the difference between the unions and franchises etc. Just for this caparison obviously there isn't really an equivalent in English rugby.

 

[Big Ewis]

They look like they have, well, semi-chemistry here. That's it, they're going to blow out England C. Tekori giving teammate Kruger the bunny ears, Taumalolo looking like he's getting whacked off by Brock James, O'Callahan at the back looking stoned....

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah, but we don't have enough of out top tier players given exposure to European rugby whereas every All Black has exposure to Super Rugby (and usually quite a bit of it). For example, I'd say Freddie Burns playing for England right now is like an ITM player playing for the All Blacks. But an ITM player would never play of NZ in a full test because there is a next level of competition above the ITM which guys have to prove themselves in before becoming internationals.

Freddie Burns did play in the Heineken Cup this year...

I'm not sure what your argument is? Are you saying players should be selected on premiership form - disregarding European form?
Or that we should adopt regions/franchises?

 

[goodNumber10]

Freddie Burns did play in the Heineken Cup this year...

I'm not sure what your argument is? Are you saying players should be selected on premiership form - disregarding European form?
Or that we should adopt regions/franchises?

From where i'm sitting I think he's saying that unless players are playing European Rugby then they are effectively only getting the equivalent of ITM rugby and as such the NZ's have an advantage in that area as all their internationals are exposed to a higher intensity/quality rugby.

don't think he's saying people shouldn't be picked, but we should bear in mind that it will impact their performance and development in someways.

 

[ratsapprentice]

His original post suggested that NZ pick players based on their SR form more readily than England do Premiership form.

And my point is that SR is the equivalent of European rugby - which England generally do use to judge players on - not Premiership rugby.

 

[goodNumber10]

So basically you're both saying the same thing?

 

[ratsapprentice]

No... I was pointing out that picking based on SR is not the same as picking based on the Premiership.

 

[goodNumber10]

No... I was pointing out that picking based on SR is not the same as picking based on the Premiership.

He doesn't say it is does he?

I think the point he was making is NZ seldom if at all pick from ITM only players.... Is easier for them to enforce that as ITM runs at a different time. You play S15 then go to the AB's or back to ITM.


Don't think there was an argument behind that or anything in there. Thought it was just an observation.

 

[Patchey]

Freddie Burns did play in the Heineken Cup this year...

I'm not sure what your argument is? Are you saying players should be selected on premiership form - disregarding European form?
Or that we should adopt regions/franchises?

Oh god know, that would be a bad idea! We should pick players based on their current form in all competitions, potential and what they do in camp with England.

The point I was trying to make is that, compared to NZ, we don't have a constant 'baseline' of domestic performance to measure our players against. While in practice everyone who is available to play for the All Black is playing Super Rugby, not everyone who is available for the EPS is not. We've got guys playing in top gour teams who will play HCup rugby through to the knock outs, guys who will play HCup group rugby and then drop to the Amlin and guys who start in the Amlin thrashing inferior opposition then get thumped by teams coming down from the HCup.

My Freddie Burns analogy was cr*p (I though Glos had only played in the Amlin this season). I guess a better example is Yarde. i think we'd all agree he is a better winger than Chris Ashton and would rather have him in the England squad. Yet Ashton plays for Sarries and has therefore been at the top of both the Premiership and Europe this season. Yarde on the other hand played his European rugby in the Amlin. I think it makes comparison between the two harder. The same goes for Wasps players such as Daly and Haskell or Chis Pennell at Wuss. IMO its part of the reason why we are much slower to trust new/young players than NZ.

So GN10 just summed up what I was driving at in much fewer words. I guess I talk too much.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Last baabaa game that I really enjoyed was the one I went to Barbarians vs South Africa in 2007. Was Jason Robinsons last game.

Teams were


Barbarians: Robinson, Rokocoko, Smith, Nonu, Neivua, Giteau, Marshall, Pucciarello, Regan, Ma'afu, Cockbain, Harrison, Elsom, Williams, Collins. Replacements: Brits, Moller, Flavell, Owen, Shanklin, Grant, Cohen.

South Africa: Pienaar, Ndungane, Fourie, Steyn, Habana, Pretorius, Januarie, van der Linde, B. du Plessis, J. du Plessis, Muller, Ackermann, Pieterse, Smith, Kankowski. Replacements: Liebenberg, van der Merwe, van den Berg, Lobberts, Olivier, Julies, Jantjes.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Anyone want to have a guess at the score? I'm going to go 25-19 to England.

 

[TheSaffycen]

England 20- 35 Barbarians

 

[Big Ewis]

could you imagine if it goes something like 9-6 ? :lol:

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

could you imagine if it goes something like 9-6 ? :lol:

Wouldn't mind as long as the game itself was good. The England - Ireland game in the 6N was scoreless for ages and the final score was pretty low but I'd say it was the best game of the 6N.