[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England vs Barbarians

[Big Ewis]

The Montpellier connection leaving for London. Man, how weird it must be. A kiwi, a Frenchie and a Georgian. Amazing the friendships pro sports can create.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The Montpellier connection leaving for London. Man, how weird it must be. A kiwi, a Frenchie and a Georgian. Amazing the friendships pro sports can create.

Half-English Kiwi.

 

[Peat]

I approve of that team.

 

[TheSaffycen]

To help anyone who doesn't know many of the English guys
Front row- Loosehead and Hooker are both steady players who should do their core roles, Sinkler the tighthead could be genuine world class in 2 years, already a beast in the scrum and not bad in the loose. Could be 2nd choice going into the RWC.
Second Row- Paterson, a kiwi <_< but has played really well for Sale and deserves to be there on merit but wont be near the team when everyone is fit. Kitchener tigers don't stop producing quality locks and soon Kitchener will be ahead of Parling, great lineout and quick as hell to boot !
Back Row- Gibson hasn't been as good as last year but has played out of position. Wallace is a fetcher and plays with Robshaw at Harlequins, could be very good. Ewers is a big lump, 6ft4 115kg+ and I can't wait to see how he goes against my favourite player to watch Gorgodze.
Half Backs- Simpson is in the Care/Youngs mould and has serious wheels, could even be going to New Zealand but unlikely. Slade is very green and will hopefully come good in a couple of years, haven't seen much of him but is held in high regard.
Centres- Hill another Exeter player, good player but isn't as good as Devoto(bench) and won't be in the England set up for a few years. Joseph played a few times for England, quick, creative and much better defensively he will be a real danger to the baabaa's.
Back Three- Sharples quick as hell, if he gets half a yard it is nigh on impossible to catch him. Rokoduguni is a brilliant player who should be starting against New Zealand but is criminally in the Baabaa's team, quick, powerful, agile and score tries for fun. No idea why he isn't in New Zealand after his performance against Northampton when he had North in his back pocket. Daly is a great running full back who can kick 50m penalties, very creative and also unlucky not too be on the plane to NZ.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

^
Unfortunately in the English international game there is a well recognised queue system going on. This wouldn't be necessary if coaches were quicker to reward good form - a la New Zealand with Fekitoa - but in practise it means that guys who earned a cap a couple of years ago are now only getting that chance, and there's a back-log. May shouldn't be our first choice at the moment but he is, in recognition of his form over time.

Rokoduguni is already a better player.

In other news, Luke Wallace really needs to step up to this level. He did not shine for Saxons and I'd be desperately disappointed if he can't improve his form.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Also I didn't know Kitchener is around 19 stone big lad, with huge pace.

 

[Josht36]

Still find it odd that in the past month or two Devoto has been keeping Eastmond out of the Bath squad. Yet it looks like Eastmond has a good chance of starting against New Zealand if Twelvetrees isnt fit and Devoto can only make the bench for the Saxons. Could be his versatility holding him back though.

I guess it makes sense that the England setup continue their rule of slowly introducing players after a long period of good play and keeping them within the setup unless they have a lot of horrors because it breeds confidence etc. I just hope it doesnt mean someone who comes out of nowhere next season and plays incredible misses out on the World cup because of Lancasters consistency.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Eastmond's in because England want to have a playmaker at 12... the only English players who fit that role at the moment are 36 and Kyle.

 

[Peat]

Also I didn't know Kitchener is around 19 stone big lad, with huge pace.

His wiki profile still shows him as under 18 stone. I find that more credible.

 

[ratsapprentice]

ERC has him at 111kg... I do remember Cockerill saying he was 122kg... which would be roughly the same as Attwood.

As Peat says, 120kg+ doesn't seem right, possible... but unlikely, especially when you consider how he impacts a game.
I've never seen him do anything that someone that heavy could do.

 

[Josht36]

Eastmond's in because England want to have a playmaker at 12... the only English players who fit that role at the moment are 36 and Kyle.

Makes sense. Is that not cause of Farrell, although improving a lot over the past year, not being a natural playmaker. I'm hoping if Cipriani is giving the opportunity he may be able to step us up in that department. Can't hurt to have more distributors in the team but Twelvetrees isn't exactly small so still adds a bit of bosh. We might lose a bit of that if hes not in. Although I guess Eastmond has the pace advantage.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Makes sense. Is that not cause of Farrell, although improving a lot over the past year, not being a natural playmaker. I'm hoping if Cipriani is giving the opportunity he may be able to step us up in that department. Can't hurt to have more distributors in the team but Twelvetrees isn't exactly small so still adds a bit of bosh. We might lose a bit of that if hes not in. Although I guess Eastmond has the pace advantage.

It's always useful to have the 2 ball players, so Cipriani and Eastmond should make a great pairing. Though lacking in size compared to Twelvetrees his ball in hand threat is so much more, and I believe he is a better player than twelvetrees and would have him ahead even if he wasn't injured.

 

[Josht36]

It's always useful to have the 2 ball players, so Cipriani and Eastmond should make a great pairing. Though lacking in size compared to Twelvetrees his ball in hand threat is so much more, and I believe he is a better player than twelvetrees and would have him ahead even if he wasn't injured.

Yeah I would probably agree with you. His form this season hasn't been special though. To me hes the sort of player that is great on the highlights reel but can go missing quite often. The fact that he hasn't necessarily been the best IC at his club this year just makes me a bit wary.
Saying that he is probably the type of player that will relish the opportunity and grab it with both hands. I hope if he gets the opportunity he can take it. It would be nice to have same Bath backs in the england team again.

 

[j'nuh]

^
Unfortunately in the English international game there is a well recognised queue system going on. This wouldn't be necessary if coaches were quicker to reward good form - a la New Zealand with Fekitoa - but in practise it means that guys who earned a cap a couple of years ago are now only getting that chance, and there's a back-log. May shouldn't be our first choice at the moment but he is, in recognition of his form over time.

Rokoduguni is already a better player.

In other news, Luke Wallace really needs to step up to this level. He did not shine for Saxons and I'd be desperately disappointed if he can't improve his form.

The difference is that New Zealand have Nonu and Smith, players with a hell of a lot of experience, as the normal go-to options in the centres. England don't have the same level of recognised and experienced players on the wings. If we are to cap Rokoduguni now and he wasn't the form player come the AIs, do we change him then? And then if the replacement isn't the form player, do we replace that player in the Six Nations? And again in the run-up to the world-cup? I'm for experimentation in areas of strength, areas we can revert to the standard players, but I don't think we ought to be chopping and changing positions without any level of consistency.

It wasn't long ago that everyone was calling for May to be picked. And before that, Wade. And before that, Sharples. Now it's Rokoduguni. England simply cannot change their setup as often as the fans want them to. I'd back May a bit more to make the position his, before looking at changing again. Yarde should have no trouble in making one wing spot his, however.

It's always useful to have the 2 ball players, so Cipriani and Eastmond should make a great pairing. Though lacking in size compared to Twelvetrees his ball in hand threat is so much more, and I believe he is a better player than twelvetrees and would have him ahead even if he wasn't injured.

Eastmond is good at exploiting gaps from 12 - gaps that probably would not be as easy to exploit at the highest level. Twelvetrees, for me, is a better pick at international level, because he's more well-rounded. Not quite the distributor or on-the-ball runner that Eastmond is, but I think Twelvetrees more than makes up for it for his physicality (especially in defence), breakdown skills (especially in recovering the ball for his team), the kicking option he offers and the general work rate he gets through. Most importantly, Twelvetrees is continuing to improve.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Barbarians side:

15 Juan Martin Hernandez (Racing Metro & Argentina)
14 Joe Rokocoko (Bayonne & New Zealand)
13 Rene Ranger (Montpellier & New Zealand)
12 Benson Stanley (Clermont & New Zealand)
11 Hosea Gear (Toulouse & New Zealand)
10 Brock James (Clermont)
9 Jimmy Cowan (Gloucester & New Zealand)

1 Sona Taumalolo (Perpignan & Tonga)
2 Ti'i Paulo (Clermont & Samoa)
3 Davit Kubriashvili (Stade Francais & Georgia)
4 Donncha O'Callaghan (Munster & Ireland)
5 Juandre Kruger (Racing Metro & South Africa)
6 Juan Manuel Leguizamon (Lyon & Argentina, Captain)
7 Alexandre Lapandry (Clermont & France)
8 Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier & Georgia)
Replacements
16 Andrew Hore (Maniototo & New Zealand)
17 Julien Brugnaut (Racing Metro & France)
18 Nahuel Lobo (Montpellier & Argentina)
19 Joe Tekori (Toulouse & Samoa)
20 Roger Wilson (Ulster & Ireland)
21 Tomas Cubelli (Belgrano & Argentina)
22 Francois Trinh-Duc (Montpellier & France)
23 Anthony Tuitavake (Montpellier & New Zealand)

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

The difference is that New Zealand have Nonu and Smith, players with a hell of a lot of experience, as the normal go-to options in the centres. England don't have the same level of recognised and experienced players on the wings. If we are to cap Rokoduguni now and he wasn't the form player come the AIs, do we change him then? And then if the replacement isn't the form player, do we replace that player in the Six Nations? And again in the run-up to the world-cup? I'm for experimentation in areas of strength, areas we can revert to the standard players, but I don't think we ought to be chopping and changing positions without any level of consistency.

It wasn't long ago that everyone was calling for May to be picked. And before that, Wade. And before that, Sharples. Now it's Rokoduguni. England simply cannot change their setup as often as the fans want them to. I'd back May a bit more to make the position his, before looking at changing again. Yarde should have no trouble in making one wing spot his, however.


Eastmond is good at exploiting gaps from 12 - gaps that probably would not be as easy to exploit at the highest level. Twelvetrees, for me, is a better pick at international level, because he's more well-rounded. Not quite the distributor or on-the-ball runner that Eastmond is, but I think Twelvetrees more than makes up for it for his physicality (especially in defence), breakdown skills (especially in recovering the ball for his team), the kicking option he offers and the general work rate he gets through. Most importantly, Twelvetrees is continuing to improve.

I agree with you, I mean I think there are some very valid reasons for the way things are with England selection. However in part the trend you describe is that Englands options in certain areas have completely rocketed in the last 18 months. We've known about May and Wade for a while but Yarde and the likes of Watson and Nowell and Rokoduguni have only recently been talked about. So partly I think the reason we seem to be jumping between one idea to the next is because we suddenly have all these options and it all seems rosy. A couple of years ago when we started clamouring for May to be picked, yes it was becuase of his form and ability but partly also because the options were more limited then.

We also seem to be unlike the likes of NewZealand in that we never seem to know whether a player is up to it until we test them. When was the last time New Zealand debuted a player who just didn't turn out to be as good as they thought? Whereas it seems to me we always have a number of drop-outs; if we're honest he didn't struggle but May didn't quite have the impact of look as comfortable as we wanted him to. I'm not saying we should change him yet because I agree he has deserved more chances, but the simple fact is that if picked on current form alone, it would Roko instead of him. Meanwhile, it's not like we've thrown Wade on the rubbish heap or anything, it's more that Lancaster delayed playing him and Wade eventually got injured. Which as rats pointed out with regards to Ford is an excellent example of why you shouldn't delay capping a player - because you never know when you're next going to have a chance!

Also, with Sharples it's odd because most of us have no idea why Lancaster gave up with him so quickly, but in the same way as with James Simpson-Daniel I guess we've accepted that for whatever reason England won't pick him, and therefore we might as well think about other options.

 

[Big Ewis]

Useless information for the day: Juan Manuel Leguizamon will captain the Barbarians...
in case this hasn't been posted yet, the Baabaa 23:

Barbarians: 15 Juan Martin Hernandez, 14 Joe Rokocoko, 13 Rene Ranger, 12 Benson Stanley, 11 Hosea Gear, 10 Brock James, 9 Jimmy Cowan, 8 Mamuka Gorgodze, 7 Alexandre Lapandry, 6 Juan Manuel Leguizamon (c), 5 Juandre Kruger, 4 Donncha O'Callaghan, 3 Davit Kubriashvili, 2 Ti'i Paulo, 1 Sona Taumalolo.
Replacements: 16 Andrew Hore, 17 Julien Brugnaut, 18 Nahuel Lobo, 19 Joe Tekori, 20 Roger Wilson, 21 Tomas Cubelli, 22 Francois Trinh-Duc, 23 Anthony Tuitavake

Can't believe they're starting Brock James in stead of FTD ! :lol:
Also, I'd have started Tekori for sure...weird pick there too...

EDIT: oh it has been posted...oh well..

 

[Patchey]

FTD can't get a break can he?! :O


I've got tickets to this and I'm really excited. Don't think it'll be as mad as the BaaBaas v Fiji game in November (probably the best professional game I've seen live in about a decade) but that Barbarians team looks like it can really play and the young talent in the England squad is really exciting.



Also, Henry makes a really good point about how in England we always seem to need to try a player out a test level before being convinced of his worth while in NZ it seems it is much easier to tell who is and isn't good enough. I'm not sure why that is, maybe because Super Rugby it just a higher standard of domestic rugby etc etc. For my money I'd like to see England trust guys who have performed at domestic level more. Lancaster is very good at getting young/new talent involved in training camps and in games such as this one, but it often takes a disproportionate amount of time for them to get a full cap or serious game time at international level. See Mike Brown's season spent on the wing/bench, George Ford's lack of 6N game time (which will now bite us on the arse I fear) and Elliot Daly only being in the team for a BaaBaas games when this time last year he was scoring tries against England for the Barbarians.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Super Rugby is the European equivalent - not Premiership equivalent.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Super Rugby is the European equivalent - not Premiership equivalent.

Well, it's really a cross between the two. There are different teams involved in Super Rugby than there are in the SH domestic competitions. The same can't be said for the Euro Cup and the the NH domestic competitions.