[2014 Mid-Year Tests] Crusaders vs England XV

[Peat]

This whole argument about Kvesic and Armitage is redundant as Lancaster and Rowntree are not interested in an out and out open side.

It doesn't fit our style of play in any way and we have enough link players with ball in hand to not need a specialist... So it's ground work where they would be looking to make a difference and we aren't looking for that.

I don't think this is true. He's tried to have Kvesic, Wallace and Fraser all as involved as he can. He's talked publicly about how he wants an out and out openside.

I think for Lancaster its more important to have what he believes to be international class players than position specialists. He's also very slow to drop players. That aside, I think he will bring in an openside the moment one's established themselves to his satisfaction.

Our attacking player in the last couple of game has certainly suffered for the lack of support runners. That's something you'd hope an out and out openside would fix. You'd also hope they'd improved our ruck spoiling game as well.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Watson is one of the few genuine wing-cum-fullbacks he's as much one as he is t'other.

 

[Tony Manx]

Watson is one of the few genuine wing-cum-fullbacks he's as much one as he is t'other.

Is he not for the 2019 RWC rather than this one?

 

[goodNumber10]

So if he added something to our team that would be a bad thing? Armitage could get in our team on his carrying alone.

He won't carry like that at international level.

At top 14 he has 7 big lumbering monsters in front of him and that allows him to get off and carry from 8.

England's pack whilst not small are not as hefty as Tolouns pack, and he doesn't fit into that style of play.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Is he not for the 2019 RWC rather than this one?

There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be for now.

 

[Tony Manx]

He won't carry like that at international level.

At top 14 he has 7 big lumbering monsters in front of him and that allows him to get off and carry from 8.

England's pack whilst not small are not as hefty as Tolouns pack, and he doesn't fit into that style of play.

Guess you do not like him then!!!

You are not mixing him up with his brother d***head Delon are you?!!!

I am talking about the player of the year in Europe....................

There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be for now.

I can think of a few............Brown, Foden, Goode, Yarde, May, Nowell, Ashton.....even Tuilagi...... who all seem to be ahead of him in Lancaster's pecking order?

 

[goodNumber10]

Guess you do not like him then!!!

You are not mixing him up with his brother d***head Delon are you?!!!

I am talking about the player of the year in Europe....................



I can think of a few............Brown, Foden, Goode, Yarde, May, Nowell, Ashton.....even Tuilagi...... who all seem to be ahead of him in Lancaster's pecking order?

Why is me saying he doesn't fit into Englands back row profile equate to me not liking him?

I'm just saying why he won't be in the 2015 squad or play in the current set up because he isn't right fit that team.

It's an observation based on how England play the game not a comment on his abilities.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I can think of a few............Brown, Foden, Goode, Yarde, May, Nowell, Ashton.....even Tuilagi...... who all seem to be ahead of him in Lancaster's pecking order?

That would be why he isn't... not why he shouldn't.

 

[j'nuh]

On the topic of Kvesic and the England backrow, I think it's clear that Lancaster isn't bought by the need for an out-and-out ball-winning openside. Lancaster's philosophy appears to be to pick the best flankers we have and rely on the fact that bossing the breakdown shouldn't be the job of the individual, but rather a group of individuals, including second rowers and front rowers. Whilst being great in the breakdown will win a flanker points in Lancaster's estimation, Lancaster wants flankers who have a great all-round game. I don't think it is a bad philosophy tbh. That being said, I don't think it's Robshaw vs. Kvesic and Wood vs. Haskell vs. Johnson. I think it's pick two of the following...

Kvesic's biggest task will be to develop that all-round game. He's got the breakdown skills, but if that's all Lancaster cared about, he'd have had Seymour in.

Funny thing is that Kvesic does deserve a shot at the big international teams, but it's Morgan that will probably keep him off the bench for the foreseeable future.

Anyone still not convinced by Kvesic?

6. Moriarty
7. Kvesic
8. Morgan

Has the potential to be the best club back row in England.

True, but there are also other players to consider. Savage, Kalamafoni, Ludlow, and the one that excites me the most, Evans. If Evans keeps improving as much as he did last year, he has a chance at being an international soon enough. He did keep Morgan out of the squad at the end of last year. He would be the England answer to Faletau. Fast as hell for an 8 who plays like a third flanker but can carry decent ball too.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I agree with all of the above.

Kvesic's biggest task will be to develop that all-round game. He's got the breakdown skills, but if that's all Lancaster cared about, he'd have had Seymour in.

I'm not sure what back row skills he doesn't have?
I can't think of any real weakness in his game.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

It's pointless going on about Steffon Armitage. England won't and should not change their policy of not picking foreign based players for the sake of one player, no matter how good he is. Armitage is 28, and although I'm not suggesting Kvesic is as good, he is only what 22, so England should concentrate on developing him if they want an out and out open side 7 in the senior international set up. Armitage signed an extension to his Toulon contract after knowing about England policy of not selecting Foreign based players, so he has made his choice to choose club and the money over his international career.

 

[j'nuh]

I'm not sure what back row skills he doesn't have?
I can't think of any real weakness in his game.

It's not that he doesn't have an all-round game, it's that he needs to keep improving it.

It's like, if you look at Launchbury, it isn't as if there was one skill ever lacking that he's improving - it's that he's just gradually improving his all-round game and becoming a better player for it. Kvesic is doing it too, but I feel that the process will be accelerated under good coaches.

 

[Patchey]

I don't think this is true. He's tried to have Kvesic, Wallace and Fraser all as involved as he can. He's talked publicly about how he wants an out and out openside.

I think for Lancaster its more important to have what he believes to be international class players than position specialists. He's also very slow to drop players. That aside, I think he will bring in an openside the moment one's established themselves to his satisfaction.

Our attacking player in the last couple of game has certainly suffered for the lack of support runners. That's something you'd hope an out and out openside would fix. You'd also hope they'd improved our ruck spoiling game as well.

Totally agree on the support runners bit. When we have had guys like Cips and Twelvetrees makes breaks and be isolated it makes me want to scream.

 

[Aedaphon]

I am talking about the player of the year in Europe....................

Kind of did some **** stirring bringing up Armitage but there was some serious intent. Our choice to cycle through Billy/Morgan on the bench gives us a very specific but very predictable threat off the bench.

By choosing Armitage (or Haskell) who can cover just about anywhere on the back row England retains far greater flexibility off the bench- and applies some pressure on billy and Morgan to be more than 60 minute cannonballs.

I understand that there are 2 very distinct camps on selection, but the actual selection choice I'm referring to is exemplified by more utility backrows such as Armitage (who I think could get into the squad based on a solid distribution of carrying, breakdown and support running).

 

[goodNumber10]

Totally agree on the support runners bit. When we have had guys like Cips and Twelvetrees makes breaks and be isolated it makes me want to scream.

If you want support running then you need Chris Ashton - http://www.thescore.ie/chris-ashton-england-new-zealand-analysis-1520341-Jun2014/

Ultimatley though support running is not an exclusive backrow role, it is for every member of the team to do.

 

[ratsapprentice]

If you want support running then you need Chris Ashton - http://www.thescore.ie/chris-ashton-england-new-zealand-analysis-1520341-Jun2014/

Ultimatley though support running is not an exclusive backrow role, it is for every member of the team to do.

If you want a winger who is competent defensively and is capable of positively effecting your attack without relying on the work of others then you don't want Ashton.

 

[Patchey]

If you want support running then you need Chris Ashton - http://www.thescore.ie/chris-ashton-england-new-zealand-analysis-1520341-Jun2014/

Ultimatley though support running is not an exclusive backrow role, it is for every member of the team to do.

Support running to receive an offload, maybe. But someone who can get there quick, ruck over to prevent the turn over and produce quick ball? I want a Haskell.

 

[goodNumber10]

Support running to receive an offload, maybe. But someone who can get there quick, ruck over to prevent the turn over and produce quick ball? I want a Haskell.

I was going to get into the "support for offload vs support to clear" point but then thought it'd make too long a post.

I agree about Haskell being there.

Do we get a lot of turn over from isolated guys due to support runners or because his turn down good options and get themselves isolated?

I'd say it's more the latter.

If you want a winger who is competent defensively and is capable of positively effecting your attack without relying on the work of others then you don't want Ashton.

I don't agree. He works well for sarries in a hunter and assist role.

Defence has improved enough that I'm not completely scared when a ball goes to his channel.

 

[Peat]

You don't need Ashton for support running, but he is good at it. Unfortunately he's not so good at that role in a team that demands its wingers have chalky boots, such as this England team. If they'll stick Tuilagi wide with very few ideas of bringing him in field, then they'll do that to anyone.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Dave.