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[2014 EOYT] England vs New Zealand

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Austin Healy on the Eng vs NZ players head to head in todays Torygraph.

i'm not sure what planet he's been living on for the last year but Rettalick 7/10 Attwood 8/10, Lawes 9/10 Whitelock 8/10.

think this sums it up:

Loosehead prop
Joe Marler
Quins captain this season. Improved work rate and defence. Rowntree will want him to secure scrum first and foremost, though.
7/10
Wyatt Crockett
Haven't seen an awful lot of Crusaders' loosehead but known as a strong scrummager with mobility akin to a back row forward. Figures.
8/10

totally misinformed and basicaly making ti up.
 
^
I find Healy pretty insightful most of the time but this head to head is TERRIBLE.Or at least his rating system doesn't make sense.
Says All-Blacks are better all over the field except he then gives it to England in the front row, second row, equals in half-backs, inside centre and full-back. Contradicting yourself, much?

I also think McCaw is no longer the 11/10 player he has typically been in the past, and the torygraphs waxing lyrical about him is completely overlooking the aspects of Richies game which are perhaps not quite what they were...
Massively overrates Dylan Hartley,
Possibly Overrates Crockett?
Definitely underrates Retallick
Overrates Farrell
Underrates Cruden
Underrates Sonny Bill (though I can see the argument that he has only played one game of union in 12 months etc)
Underrates Roko

Apart from that, perfect!
 
I think he's an excellent analyst, but this is just garbage, or they've posted the wrong numbers for some of those players.
 
Nope - as good as their knowledge of the game itself is, and as great as they were as players - the vast majority of ex-player rugby pundits don't have a ****ing clue about most players.

You honestly think Healey watches SR on his weekends?
 
not really, but as a TV pundit working on rugby and writing on international rugby he should at least be semi informed before committing something to paper.

Why should he be different to the rest of them? :lol:
 
Michael Hooper could reach 150 caps, he has 38 caps and he's just 23 years. If we add the 4 games of EOTY 2014, then there are 42 games. Also he never gets injured, I don't remember he has suffered major injuries despite playing at 7, one of the most demanding positions.

George North takes the biscuit. If he plays every game for wales between now and the end of the 6 nations he will hit 50 caps (not including his 3 lions caps) before he turns 23. Also never seems to get injured. Interestingly, if you include the lions caps, he has played more international games than club games for any single club: 45 at scarlets, 27 at Saints.
 
Why should he be different to the rest of them? :lol:

It's one of my big complaints about rugby punditry, it seems they aren't really expected to know much about players certain players.
 
I'm still surprised to see that people still don't rate Cane as the best back up to McCaw. Every single he has played at international level he has looked completely at home. I'd say he's had one of the best debut seasons of all new players in the Hansen era, probably only Barrett, Smith and Retallick would compare. I would be comfortable having Todd start in a World Cup final, but I'd certainly prefer Cane to be there (much like the Barrett v Cruden situation).

I'd definitely say Cane can get the job done. Any preference I have isn't because he's bad that's for sure. And to some extent, he could be a lot better, but in years gone by even a regular start at the Chiefs in Super Rugby isn't guaranteed. It just seems to be like Todd gets a lot more involved, in the way McCaw would. That's my perception anyway.

A few people are asking about Fekitoa. The news is reporting that the coaches wanted to rest him.

English forward pack looks good, but overall the team seems a bit light on experience. Will be interesting to see how their winger goes.
 
It's one of my big complaints about rugby punditry, it seems they aren't really expected to know much about players certain players.

well i don't think they should know the minutiae of each player, but surely their researchers can do some of that leg work for them?

It does annoy me when people talk about stuff they have no clue about.... **looks around forum**. oh! :D

you know, and at the risk of derailing the thread, we should really get an alternative rugby commentary system going, or a real time chat room or something for live games.
 
Talking **** you don't really know about is all part of the fun for the ordinary fan, but for for a pundit it's your ****ing JOB, excuse my French but this winds me up too, in all sports. Even I sometimes wake up early to watch Super 15 in season, and I'm supposed to accept that the people paid huge amounts of money can't be arsed?!

I think the problem is ex-players. It's obviously a privileged position and therefore hugely competitive, so if you're a journalist then in theory you have to really show something special to get there. If you're Lawrence Dallaglio or Ian Botham you can just say "I won a World Cup / took 300 test wickets" and you get the job without having to do anything past turning up on the day.

Agree that Healey is normally a good analyst, when you get past the irritating "TOP BANTZ!!!" persona, but those numbers above are ludicrous. On what planet is Attwood better than Retalick?! I think assigning numerical scores to such a multi-faceted issue is a bit pointless anyway, but at least make them realistic...
 
Healey's assessment of the All Blacks forwards is pretty ill-informed! Jerome Kaino gets 9 out of 10, but Coles and Retalick get 7's? Those latter two have arguably been our best players this year. Coles has really come into his own has the first choice hooker, and I wasn't crazy about him when Hansen first started selecting him so I have to hand it to him. Kaino is great, agreed there, but a 9 would have been his World Cup form.

As for overating Crockett - possibly. He can be a great scrummager, but other times can give away a lot of penalties. His strength isn't so much set pieces, but general work around the park - especially defensively.
 
Talking **** you don't really know about is all part of the fun for the ordinary fan, but for for a pundit it's your ****ing JOB, excuse my French but this winds me up too, in all sports. Even I sometimes wake up early to watch Super 15 in season, and I'm supposed to accept that the people paid huge amounts of money can't be arsed?!

I think the problem is ex-players. It's obviously a privileged position and therefore hugely competitive, so if you're a journalist then in theory you have to really show something special to get there. If you're Lawrence Dallaglio or Ian Botham you can just say "I won a World Cup / took 300 test wickets" and you get the job without having to do anything past turning up on the day.

That's basically it in a nutshell.

I'd be interested to see someone who's worked as an analyst for a top side try their hand at punditry/tv analysis.
I think there needs to be a mix of ex-players and professional pundits.

It's always noticeable how much better the punditry by guys who've also coached at a high level is - they are almost always more informed about players and far more balanced in their criticism.
 
Problem is, ex-pros get the gig because big names are seen as needed to get readers in, and the ex-pros only real brief, at a guess, is "Make it a little bold, get people arguing".

Not going to criticise everything pundits say, but I'd take it all with a pinch of salt and no higher than a good many posters on this forum, and I'd rather the world just ignored pieces of clickbait like this. Because when you don't, you let them win.
 
I'd be interested to see someone who's worked as an analyst for a top side try their hand at punditry/tv analysis.
I think there needs to be a mix of ex-players and professional pundits.

It's always noticeable how much better the punditry by guys who've also coached at a high level is - they are almost always more informed about players and far more balanced in their criticism.

two words:

DEAN and RYAN

oh, wait, that's three.

, is "Make it a little bold, get people arguing".

what they actually do is unite the fans in thinking they are a d*ck head :)
 
BT sport are worse than Sky in my opinion, they have that achingly contrived "bunch of lads!" schtick which just makes me cringe horribly, it's a real shame. I used to get so angry when the scrum would go down and Healy and Dallaglio would chortle about how they didn't know what just happened because "dark arts" and "Aus was fixing his hair!" and "that's just for the fat drunk idiots in the front row!", essentially. Well, shut the f**k up then and let someone who knows something talk.

Fortunately they then brought in Ben Kay, who is fantastic on all technical stuff, especially the scrum, and doesn't go overboard on the banter.
 
BT sport are worse than Sky in my opinion, they have that achingly contrived "bunch of lads!" schtick which just makes me cringe horribly, it's a real shame. I used to get so angry when the scrum would go down and Healy and Dallaglio would chortle about how they didn't know what just happened because "dark arts" and "Aus was fixing his hair!" and "that's just for the fat drunk idiots in the front row!", essentially. Well, shut the f**k up then and let someone who knows something talk.

Fortunately they then brought in Ben Kay, who is fantastic on all technical stuff, especially the scrum, and doesn't go overboard on the banter.

agreed. i'm glad sky are doing tomorrows game.

I like greenwood and reckon as an analyst him and Kay would be perfect.

don't see anywhere near as much analysis on the SH TV shows.
 
agreed. i'm glad sky are doing tomorrows game.

I like greenwood and reckon as an analyst him and Kay would be perfect.

don't see anywhere near as much analysis on the SH TV shows.

Just be happy you guys don't have to put up with George Hook.
 
anyway, taking it back to england vs NZ, and healy's comments.

I can't think of anyone where i think England have the better player - maybe 15, but it's a collective effort for certain.
 
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