[2014 EOYT] England v Samoa

[Draggs]

Location: Twickenham, London, England
Ref: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Date: November 22nd​ 2014
​

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Yay, a thread!

 

[goodNumber10]

BBC indicating Care and Vunipola are dropped, Eastmond included in that but later confirmed as concussed:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/30107194

Also indicating Wood is under pressure and continuing with the Farrell at 12 angle:

Forwards: Dave Attwood (Bath), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle), Dylan Hartley (Northampton), James Haskell (Wasps), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain), Rob Webber (Bath), David Wilson (Bath), Tom Wood (Northampton).
Backs: Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath), Jonny May (Gloucester), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester), Anthony Watson (Bath), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Marland Yarde (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester).

The likely 23:

01: Marler
02: Webber
03: Wilson
04: Lawes
05: Attwood
06: Haskell
07: Robshaw
08: Morgan
09: Youngs
10: Ford
11: May
12: Farrell
13: Barritt
14: Yarde
15: Brown

Subs:
Brookes
Hartley
Mullan
Kruis
Wood
Wigglesworth
Twelvetrees
Watson

 

[TommiG88]

Ford to be taken off mid first half for 36. Farrell moved to 10 for the rest of the game. My guess of the change he will make during the game.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

That will be depressing if England start Farrell and Barritt at 12 and 13.

 

[goodNumber10]

Ford to be taken off mid first half for 36. Farrell moved to 10 for the rest of the game. My guess of the change he will make during the game.

Think the forum might literally implode with rage if that happens...

 

[usap dessie]

its just like mini rugby..... when the coaches son keeps getting picked at fly half to the absolute amazement of the other parents !!!
Must be the elephant in the room when them team selection meetings take place !

 

[glawsfan]

When will England learn to play with an out and out 13. I think Joseph can count himself unlucky not be involved as he is the form centre in the premiership right now. What does Farrell have to do to get dropped? What England must do is get the wingers involved a lot more what the point of having someone as destructive as May and then not give him the ball. Lets get him in the 13 channel when attacking of set piece. More creativity is needed in attack.

 

[goodNumber10]

when will england learn to play with an out and out 13. I think joseph can count himself unlucky not be involved as he is the form centre in the premiership right now. What does farrell have to do to get dropped? What england must do is get the wingers involved a lot more what the point of having someone as destructive as may and then not give him the ball. Lets get him in the 13 channel when attacking of set piece. better ball is needed from the pack.

ftfy

its just like mini rugby..... when the coaches son keeps getting picked at fly half to the absolute amazement of the other parents !!!
Must be the elephant in the room when them team selection meetings take place !

Wasn't that discussed a few years ago, on the lions tour or something? Think Gatland, or maybe Lancaster and co, all said how honest Big Faz was about Owen's playing abilities and form at team selections.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

I really really really want the Hask to play as well as he has for Wasps. If he does that then he'll be one of the first names on the team sheet. He's just got more dimensions to him than Wood, which is all the more obvious now hes no longer giving away 3 penalties a game.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I've raised this a couple of times without success, possibly because (as I suspect) there isn't really an answer - but what, precisely, is it that qualifies Owen Farrell to play at inside centre? I can't see in him any of the qualities a coach would want from a twelve except good defence.

To move away from Farrell (sorry, I know we were all enjoying it...) I am actually pleased to see that back row. I think for the first time in a while, we're seeing a back row which actually encompasses a good balance of all the things you want your back row to do. There's one real work horse, two big ball carriers, all three good on defence, there's even a decent over-the-ball style seven in there (haskell). Plus, you could argue there's a link mantype flanker, although Robshaw hasn't been doing that particularly effectively recently. All in all, I really like the balance. I'd like to find a way to incorporate a breakdown specialist long-term, but given the options of known international class we have available I think that's actually the best combination in the country.

More creativity is needed in attack.

better ball is needed from the pack

Can't they both be true? I don't think poor quality ball from the pack makes the backs entirely redundant, it may be easier to work with better ball but I would argue that the selection of someone like Barritt compounds the problems in attack because he needs good quality ball to offer anything significant. A true attacking thirteen, Tuilagi or JJ, might be a lot more frightening with good quality go forward ball but both, in their different ways, are still capable of offering something and keeping defences interested when the ball is rubbish. Australia have showed in the last year or so that even without a dominant pack it is possible for good backs to cause problems.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I really really really want the Hask to play as well as he has for Wasps. If he does that then he'll be one of the first names on the team sheet.

He already did in NZ didn't he?
...Wood still came back.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Right, but I'm not sure whether we've seen the best of him for England yet. We've always known he can play the 'nuisance 6.5 ' backrower but hes' recaptured what used to make him more than that which was the carrying and the linkmanship, running in the loose etc. Don't think he's properly shown that yet.

 

[goodNumber10]

I've raised this a couple of times without success, possibly because (as I suspect) there isn't really an answer - but what, precisely, is it that qualifies Owen Farrell to play at inside centre? I can't see in him any of the qualities a coach would want from a twelve except good defence.

good Kicking game, good Defender, excellent passer of the ball, strong. Coupled with the fact he's played there for a U20's and Saracens.

It's one of those things where people think because someone plays and distributes as a 10, and as 12 is only one out, it's essentially the same. A lot of attacking decision making now sits with the 12 and not the 10 anyway which is why Eastmond and Ford work so well together as it's Eastmond pulling the strings and Ford running the close game, but they are actually quite different now.

Can't they both be true?

Absoloutely, and they are, but good quick going forward ball will have a bigger positive impact for the backs then an un-creative midfield who charge over the gain line will have negatively for the forwards. If we want to play wide we have to have good go forward ball.

I don't think poor quality ball from the pack makes the backs entirely redundant, it may be easier to work with better ball but I would argue that the selection of someone like Barritt compounds the problems in attack because he needs good quality ball to offer anything significant. A true attacking thirteen, Tuilagi or JJ, might be a lot more frightening with good quality go forward ball but both, in their different ways, are still capable of offering something and keeping defences interested when the ball is rubbish. Australia have showed in the last year or so that even without a dominant pack it is possible for good backs to cause problems.

Like most teams Australia look good when they have good ball going forward and poor when they have bad static/slow ball.

In the SA game there is a point in the second half where Barritt gets clattered by JDV or JS. The reason he gets clattered isn't because Farrell gives him sh*te or he just runs head first - it's because the ball has sucked in no one, and they just shuffle sideways and get off the line early, so he has no option but to take contact.

And that for me is the biggest issue England have got, it's not that we don't' have boys who can play wide, because we do look at last years 6nations we slung it about - it's because we're not giving them front foot ball against a retreating defence.

Right, but I'm not sure whether we've seen the best of him for England yet. We've always known he can play the 'nuisance 6.5 ' backrower but hes' recaptured what used to make him more than that which was the carrying and the linkmanship, running in the loose etc. Don't think he's properly shown that yet.

I thought he was immense against New Zealand, he was everywhere, linking, tackling carrying - it was like watching Peter Winterbottom.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Why don't you just marry Farrell GN10.

 

[Patchey]

Why don't you just marry Farrell GN10.

Mental image that I do not want...

 

[Every Time Ref]

good Kicking game, good Defender, excellent passer of the ball, strong. Coupled with the fact he's played there for a U20's and Saracens.

It's one of those things where people think because someone plays and distributes as a 10, and as 12 is only one out, it's essentially the same. A lot of attacking decision making now sits with the 12 and not the 10 anyway which is why Eastmond and Ford work so well together as it's Eastmond pulling the strings and Ford running the close game, but they are actually quite different now.

Current form excepted, I don't buy completely into all the flack he gets, but an "excellent" passer of the ball? At his best his passing game was improving, but as it was pretty limited before that made him, at best, a decent international passer. Which international playmakers would you say his passing game is on a par with? I honestly can't think of anyone except Priestland...

I understand distribution at twelve is different. To my mind a large part of that is that a twelve needs to threaten to break the line, and he needs to be able to playmake at a greater pace. Again, I don't see how either of these qualities can be associated with Owen Farrell. I can't remember seeing OF break the line off the top of my head, except for his try against Australia. That line break came from running a very lateral line which would never work running from twelve; and from basically a standing start - again, which you cannot have your twelve doing.

 

[goodNumber10]

Why don't you just marry Farrell GN10.

Gays, LOL!!

<_<

 

[goodNumber10]

Current form excepted, I don't buy completely into all the flack he gets, but an "excellent" passer of the ball? At his best his passing game was improving, but as it was pretty limited before that made him, at best, a decent international passer. Which international playmakers would you say his passing game is on a par with? I honestly can't think of anyone except Priestland...

Depends what you're looking at, his short one out passes are very quick and very accurate, bring the man onto the ball, he can pick an open runner well and his masked passing is pretty accurate. What you won't get from him is big long miss passes that fizz.

Not really sure he's comparable to anyone specific, to be honest the player he reminds me the most of is Rob Andrew.

I understand distribution at twelve is different. To my mind a large part of that is that a twelve needs to threaten to break the line, and he needs to be able to playmake at a greater pace. Again, I don't see how either of these qualities can be associated with Owen Farrell. I can't remember seeing OF break the line off the top of my head, except for his try against Australia. That line break came from running a very lateral line which would never work running from twelve; and from basically a standing start - again, which you cannot have your twelve doing.

Don't disagree, i'm not sure it's the best position for him, i think they are doing it to see what their emergency options are for next year.

 

[Big Ewis]

Yes, Owen Farrell and Danny Care, Inglend issues, need a good center buttersnip and creatives ain in the bak lain Vunipola too one-dimen












This needed to be done, imho honest opinion.