2014 6 Nations: Ireland vs Italy (Round 4)

[Big Ewis]

Guys you had a great win ! Stop arguing between yourselves ! Some parts were great some parts were poor . It's rare a team comes away from a game with nothing to work on anyway . France will certainly pose a larger test but for now it's job done and eyes on next week . You're in pole position

dude, I'm sorry but you're COMPLETELY INSANE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....

 

[munstermuffin]

@Peat and Maverick. I agree some are good and some are poor. And Peat I'd agree they're 2 big results but were against probably the worst Italian team and Scotland teams to come to Dublin. This is not Schmidts fault as he can only beat what's there and as I said from start it's results business. And I just feel some changes may make huge impact. Does it make me right no. If Schmidt keeps winning then he's obviously doing right thing. But I just think now it's still hard to gauge things. But I would give credit that Schmidt has us in hunt for ***le. Facts are it is dull rugby (but winning) considering resources but fact he's done it considering lads that were lost to injury

 

[Peat]

The changes I'm guessing you're looking for - backs that possess more x factor - I think are changes everyone is open to. Except for Schmidt. He seems to be working on the principle that as long as his team is playing with enough accuracy its ok. He'd rather have the accuracy and the systems than the individual moments. Long term, yeah, guys like Bowe, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Skywalker and so on, they'll play bigger roles, as they get more accustomed to it. But right now he'd rather have familiarity and getting the small things right than pyrotechnics.

Right or wrong, we'll see against France.

 

[munstermuffin]

The changes I'm guessing you're looking for - backs that possess more x factor - I think are changes everyone is open to. Except for Schmidt. He seems to be working on the principle that as long as his team is playing with enough accuracy its ok. He'd rather have the accuracy and the systems than the individual moments. Long term, yeah, guys like Bowe, Zebo, Fitzgerald, Skywalker and so on, they'll play bigger roles, as they get more accustomed to it. But right now he'd rather have familiarity and getting the small things right than pyrotechnics.

Right or wrong, we'll see against France.

Well it depends. If Schmidt keeps this plan then I'd want Bowe not Zebo in as I'd accept Zebo mightn't have the discipline yet for the role. But we need gas. Luke Fitz is option too if fit. Skywalker I'd worry has he a future in game if reports I'm hearing are true. But in short term like next week I think we need Bowe back.
Like an example next week is the fact of our bench.
Bring Reddan on after 60 against tired legs and raising tempo will be impact.
Henderson on will come on and against tired legs will make hard yards.
Front row will change and same result.
In back 3 we need gas like none of 4 have that. I can accept McFadden is there for versatility but 1 of 4 has to have pace. And it think Dave Kearney will be 1 under pressure to keep place.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well it depends. If Schmidt keeps this plan then I'd want Bowe not Zebo in as I'd accept Zebo mightn't have the discipline yet for the role. But we need gas. Luke Fitz is option too if fit. Skywalker I'd worry has he a future in game if reports I'm hearing are true. But in short term like next week I think we need Bowe back.
Like an example next week is the fact of our bench.
Bring Reddan on after 60 against tired legs and raising tempo will be impact.
Henderson on will come on and against tired legs will make hard yards.
Front row will change and same result.
In back 3 we need gas like none of 4 have that. I can accept McFadden is there for versatility but 1 of 4 has to have pace. And it think Dave Kearney will be 1 under pressure to keep place.

If I was picking/guessing team being realistic it'd be:
Healy
Best
Ross
Toner
POC
POM
Henry
Heaslip
Murray
Sexton
Trimble (I'd say maybe Zebo or Luke Fitz)
D'Arcy
Bod
Bowe
R. Kearney

Cronin
McGrath
Moore
Ryan/Henderson
Henderson/Ruddock
Reddan
PJ
McFadden/Luke Fitz

 

[big ginger 8]

Well it depends. If Schmidt keeps this plan then I'd want Bowe not Zebo in as I'd accept Zebo mightn't have the discipline yet for the role. But we need gas. Luke Fitz is option too if fit. Skywalker I'd worry has he a future in game if reports I'm hearing are true. But in short term like next week I think we need Bowe back.
Like an example next week is the fact of our bench.
Bring Reddan on after 60 against tired legs and raising tempo will be impact.
Henderson on will come on and against tired legs will make hard yards.
Front row will change and same result.
In back 3 we need gas like none of 4 have that. I can accept McFadden is there for versatility but 1 of 4 has to have pace. And it think Dave Kearney will be 1 under pressure to keep place.

You keep going on about pace, none of those guys on the pitch are slouches they have pace. None of the starters are Varndell type sprinters but they're speed isn't some huge flaw. Also not including McFadden as someone who's not pacey is laughable. He's the fastest player in the Leinster set up and I've heard he was the fastest in a few Ireland camps although in fairness I'm not sure if they included Zebo.

Start at 7:20 http://youtu.be/YsYcFuzE8_0

 

[munstermuffin]

You keep going on about pace, none of those guys on the pitch are slouches they have pace. None of the starters are Varndell type sprinters but they're speed isn't some huge flaw. Also not including McFadden as someone who's not pacey is laughable. He's the fastest player in the Leinster set up and I've heard he was the fastest in a few Ireland camps although in fairness I'm not sure if they included Zebo.

Start at 7:20 http://youtu.be/YsYcFuzE8_0

Then why don't none show it on pitch. Look McFadden D. Kearney Trimble are all hard working guys who do a job but simply put too much and it's not good when trying to unlock defense. None have threatened defenses and that's where pace comes in. I'm not saying they're slouches but they don't have out and out gas and if you think they do fine we will disagree.
You don't need Varndell speed but let's not forget D. Kearney had clear gallop against Launchbury and Launchbury easily caught him. And not to argue with clip but it over 3 years old. I'm not saying McFadden slow just we do need bit of pow

 

[big ginger 8]

Then why don't none show it on pitch. Look McFadden D. Kearney Trimble are all hard working guys who do a job but simply put too much and it's not good when trying to unlock defense. None have threatened defenses and that's where pace comes in. I'm not saying they're slouches but they don't have out and out gas and if you think they do fine we will disagree.
You don't need Varndell speed but let's not forget D. Kearney had clear gallop against Launchbury and Launchbury easily caught him. And not to argue with clip but it over 3 years old. I'm not saying McFadden slow just we do need bit of pow

It's not pace by itself that threatens defenses given how handy the touchline is for defense. Trimble and RK both have 2 tries this tournament. Both Trimble and DK have been very good in close contact, DK in particular has a knack of squirming out of tackles he has no right to get out of. This does threaten defenses it takes defenders out of the game leaving them numbers down for the next phase.

Thinking Launchbury "easily" caught DK is also completely twisting something to suit you point you give no context to it. DK had eaten up metres pretty quickly up to that point and had Brown in front of him. So he cut in so support would be near him and he wouldn't get knocked into touch. Launchbury had the angle on him and got an ankle tap on him as he came inside. An ankle tap, from someone who's 6'6" with long arms diving to get him. Hardly getting caught easily now is it? We also recycled the ball well from it. It was the intelligent thing to do.

Yes clearly McFadden has lost so much pace since then. Seriously is that all you've got? I could have posted his try against NZ from 2012 if you wanted for an example. 132 metres and 3 clean breaks in the last test match he start, that's not bad "pow".

http://youtu.be/uD7LnCAjbbU

http://youtu.be/rrqAoJeXDrM

http://youtu.be/Czp579ILGSU

http://youtu.be/wutdXKURISg

http://youtu.be/kbuFsNeOq8A

http://youtu.be/H7UJ1mnSFgM

None of them will make top 10 lists of fastest players but they don't need to, that's not our gameplan. None of them will let us down due to not having enough pace either. Please let me know if any of those clips are too old.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's not pace by itself that threatens defenses given how handy the touchline is for defense. Trimble and RK both have 2 tries this tournament. Both Trimble and DK have been very good in close contact, DK in particular has a knack of squirming out of tackles he has no right to get out of. This does threaten defenses it takes defenders out of the game leaving them numbers down for the next phase.

Thinking Launchbury "easily" caught DK is also completely twisting something to suit you point you give no context to it. DK had eaten up metres pretty quickly up to that point and had Brown in front of him. So he cut in so support would be near him and he wouldn't get knocked into touch. Launchbury had the angle on him and got an ankle tap on him as he came inside. An ankle tap, from someone who's 6'6" with long arms diving to get him. Hardly getting caught easily now is it? We also recycled the ball well from it. It was the intelligent thing to do.

Yes clearly McFadden has lost so much pace since then. Seriously is that all you've got? I could have posted his try against NZ from 2012 if you wanted for an example. 132 metres and 3 clean breaks in the last test match he start, that's not bad "pow".

http://youtu.be/uD7LnCAjbbU

http://youtu.be/rrqAoJeXDrM

http://youtu.be/Czp579ILGSU

http://youtu.be/wutdXKURISg

http://youtu.be/kbuFsNeOq8A

http://youtu.be/H7UJ1mnSFgM

None of them will make top 10 lists of fastest players but they don't need to, that's not our gameplan. None of them will let us down due to not having enough pace either. Please let me know if any of those clips are too old.

Again can you show where I said McFadden lost pace? Never said that. And again I'll disagree re Launchbury Kearney thing as if you look at angles Launchbury made hell of a lot of ground.
And funny you mention touch line been helpful for defenses as Kearney didn't see this today. And younger Dave added his fault then. And yes all 4 tries mentioned but none were pace or anything like that. But since McFadden is so brilliant as you paint why has he never nailed on his starting spot so pow?
And how did he manage to have worst hand in Europe statistically last weekend?
Look you disagree fine but for me and a lot others Kearney McFadden and few still have to convince. Especially Kearneys role in last 2 tries conceded. And his strike rate as winger is desperate too.
If it were Zebo it'd probably roles reversed. And regards YouTube clips I couldn't be bothered checking them but if it's about pace well again we have different views and will agree to disagree.

On side 1 player who has really risen and become a highly rated player is Toner who was best forward. And Paddy Jackson showed he can kick at this level

 

[j'nuh]

#betterteamlost

 

[ruggabee]

People continuously bring up the fact McFadden is the fastest in the Irish squad but I've rarely seen any evidence of that. Maybe he is a fast runner in a straight line but it's no use if he can't get past the guy in front of him. Maybe just me but I think wingers should have the ability to beat a man one on one more so than any other position. Don't see how the video of him outrunning McCaw is a sign of his attacking ability. He's a solid option on the wing where you'd be confident he won't leak a try but I wouldn't have him on the wing if there's someone else with better finishing ability like Fitz/Zebo/Bowe. Although in relation to Dave Kearney I can't agree with the criticism towards him. He's made the step up to international level surprisingly well. There's a spring in his step and extra power to his game that wasn't there before. Of course would still have guys like Fitz/Zebo/Earls ahead of him when fit. Trimble is effective as his game is more focused around power and using that power on the swerve. Not a stepper as such. But yeah, McFadden is solid but wouldn't be praising him on his ability as a winger. He's a solid option on the bench to cover centre/wing.

edit.. Rob Kearney - great aerial ability but wouldn't be praising his pace or attack either. Builds up a lot of steam on the counter only to run into contact instead of space or the shoulder. His try against the ABs was great but again it was an intercept and was lucky to get that head start with the AB backs on the back foot. Reid was on right on him when he touched down. Am glad that Payne will be qualified at the end of the year cos there doesn't seem to be any competition on Kearney.

 

[munstermuffin]

People continuously bring up the fact McFadden is the fastest in the Irish squad but I've rarely seen any evidence of that. Maybe he is a fast runner in a straight line but it's no use if he can't get past the guy in front of him. Maybe just me but I think wingers should have the ability to beat a man one on one more so than any other position. Don't see how the video of him outrunning McCaw is a sign of his attacking ability. He's a solid option on the wing where you'd be confident he won't leak a try but I wouldn't have him on the wing if there's someone else with better finishing ability like Fitz/Zebo/Bowe. Although in relation to Dave Kearney I can't agree with the criticism towards him. He's made the step up to international level surprisingly well. There's a spring in his step and extra power to his game that wasn't there before. Of course would still have guys like Fitz/Zebo/Earls ahead of him when fit. Trimble is effective as his game is more focused around power and using that power on the swerve. Not a stepper as such. But yeah, McFadden is solid but wouldn't be praising him on his ability as a winger. He's a solid option on the bench to cover centre/wing.

edit.. Rob Kearney - great aerial ability but wouldn't be praising his pace or attack either. Builds up a lot of steam on the counter only to run into contact instead of space or the shoulder. His try against the ABs was great but again it was an intercept and was lucky to get that head start with the AB backs on the back foot. Reid was on right on him when he touched down. Am glad that Payne will be qualified at the end of the year cos there doesn't seem to be any competition on Kearney.

On this I'd agree with a lot but regards Jared Payne we have to remember he'd only be short term option as he's not a youngster.

 

[ruggabee]

On this I'd agree with a lot but regards Jared Payne we have to remember he'd only be short term option as he's not a youngster.

It is a short term option but I'd say we would get a valuable couple of years from him until someone young steps up. Similar to our prop situation a couple of years ago. We are lucky to have someone like Payne to step in for a bit.

 

[munstermuffin]

It is a short term option but I'd say we would get a valuable couple of years from him until someone young steps up. Similar to our prop situation a couple of years ago. We are lucky to have someone like Payne to step in for a bit.

Don't get me wrong I think he will be massive asset. Just hope he's left challenge for 15 as I don't think he's as good 13 and I'd rather let lads who can be there for longer like Henshaw earn that jersey

 

[ruggabee]

Don't get me wrong I think he will be massive asset. Just hope he's left challenge for 15 as I don't think he's as good 13 and I'd rather let lads who can be there for longer like Henshaw earn that jersey

Agree I think he should be left at 15 if he does get picked for Ireland. Cave will continue to play 13 for Ulster so Payne isn't going to get enough time there and pretty much I just enjoy seeing him at 15 more. Watching the after match press conference with Schmidt yesterday he spoke of BOD passing on his knowledge to Henshaw and Cave. This probably means they are the main contenders for the 13 jersey.

 

[munstermuffin]

Agree I think he should be left at 15 if he does get picked for Ireland. Cave will continue to play 13 for Ulster so Payne isn't going to get enough time there and pretty much I just enjoy seeing him at 15 more. Watching the after match press conference with Schmidt yesterday he spoke of BOD passing on his knowledge to Henshaw and Cave. This probably means they are the main contenders for the 13 jersey.

Well you'd hope so and they must take on mantle of earning jersey. They shouldn't concentrate on trying to be next BOD as that won't happen but try the should take their games up notch making their strengths more effective

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

McFadden makes a hell of a lot of linebreaks playing wing, he rarely goes a game on the wing without one for Leinster and Ireland. He has a good try scoring record and is a better defender than Fitzy and Earls. He's behind Fitzy, Earls and Bowe and at the same level as Trimble, Zebo and Kearney, arguably the most consistent.

 

[munstermuffin]

McFadden makes a hell of a lot of linebreaks playing wing, he rarely goes a game on the wing without one for Leinster and Ireland. He has a good try scoring record and is a better defender than Fitzy and Earls. He's behind Fitzy, Earls and Bowe and at the same level as Trimble, Zebo and Kearney, arguably the most consistent.

Ok but nobody is singling him out as poor. He's on bench effectively due to versatility. He did good yesterday playing centre. But he's not a real impact player where if game is tight you'd send him on thinking he could make huge difference.
I'd say if being critical his hands have been poor lately but that's something he will correct

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

He won't score wonder tries off the bench but neither will any of our wingers to be honest, ideally I'd start Fitzy and Earls with Bowe on the bench but for the very structured game which Schmidt is successfully using needs consistency rather than flair.

 

[munstermuffin]

It's not pace by itself that threatens defenses given how handy the touchline is for defense. Trimble and RK both have 2 tries this tournament. Both Trimble and DK have been very good in close contact, DK in particular has a knack of squirming out of tackles he has no right to get out of. This does threaten defenses it takes defenders out of the game leaving them numbers down for the next phase.

Thinking Launchbury "easily" caught DK is also completely twisting something to suit you point you give no context to it. DK had eaten up metres pretty quickly up to that point and had Brown in front of him. So he cut in so support would be near him and he wouldn't get knocked into touch. Launchbury had the angle on him and got an ankle tap on him as he came inside. An ankle tap, from someone who's 6'6" with long arms diving to get him. Hardly getting caught easily now is it? We also recycled the ball well from it. It was the intelligent thing to do.

Yes clearly McFadden has lost so much pace since then. Seriously is that all you've got? I could have posted his try against NZ from 2012 if you wanted for an example. 132 metres and 3 clean breaks in the last test match he start, that's not bad "pow".

http://youtu.be/uD7LnCAjbbU

http://youtu.be/rrqAoJeXDrM

http://youtu.be/Czp579ILGSU

http://youtu.be/wutdXKURISg

http://youtu.be/kbuFsNeOq8A

http://youtu.be/H7UJ1mnSFgM

None of them will make top 10 lists of fastest players but they don't need to, that's not our gameplan. None of them will let us down due to not having enough pace either. Please let me know if any of those clips are too old.

Looked at clips and well don't know what point is only as I'd say Dave Kearney has awful strike rate for back 3 player. But not many are showing great pace and I wouldn't say their tries a lot of other wingers wouldn't score so don't know your point really but look you disagree fine. And on old clip I said McFadden clip was 3 years old nothing about his pace slowing or anything so again don't understand point