2013 British and Irish Lions

[big ginger 8]

I think recently the prop situation has become a real area of concern. Tighthead prop was being contested by Jones, Cole and Murray until recently, but with Cole not playing up to the form we know he can, and Murray being destroyed in the scrum yesterday, it looks like Jones has pretty much nailed the spot. But we really need Cole to get back to form quickly, because if Jones gets injured (which he has a habit of doing) we could be in trouble come June.

At loosehead, nobody is really standing out. Paul James is a bit up and down at the moment, and seems to get penalized a little too often. He did make 8 tackles yesterday though, which is impressive for someone who is often criticized or questioned for his work rate around the field. Marler is not playing up to standards either, and obviously cannot hold his position in the England squad. We'll have to see how Vunipola does today, he could be a serious option if he puts in a big performance. Jenkins is another option. He was beginning to find his top form again before he got injured, and was not only doing his renowned loose work but was also great in the scrum. Healy started the tournament strongly, but has since gone off the boil, and his discipline could obviously be questioned.

Don't think Murray was ever in contention. I'd have Cross and Ross ahead of him.

I don't understand how Healy's "gone off the boil". He missed a match because he was banned. He came back and was good against France still the frontrunner. Also the whole discipline thing. Is one moment of stupidity going to haunt him for the rest of his career? He'd never been cited before then and for a prop gives away a low amount of penalties. Don't really think it's an issue certainly not as big as some are trying to make out.

 

[j'nuh]

Don't know how Healy could be said to have had a good game. The Irish scrum lost 4/6 of their own feed, most of the struggles seeming to come on Healy's side. It has to resurface questions over his scrummaging. As for his discipline - maybe if he gave a few penalties away in one game then you might let him off. But how can you avoid questioning his discipline when he does something as cynical and deliberate as stamping on someone?

Jones and James to start, Healy and Cole to finish for me.

 

[big ginger 8]

Don't know how Healy could be said to have had a good game. The Irish scrum lost 4/6 of their own feed, most of the struggles seeming to come on Healy's side. It has to resurface questions over his scrummaging. As for his discipline - maybe if he gave a few penalties away in one game then you might let him off. But how can you avoid questioning his discipline when he does something as cynical and deliberate as stamping on someone?

Jones and James to start, Healy and Cole to finish for me.

This for me is a load of crap. How many of the penalties were against Healy? They were mainly against Ross and how many were actually correct? He also made some strong carries and was strong in defence.

I question numerous constant errors over a one off flash every time. You are being incredibly harsh on him.

 

[Ospreylian]

This for me is a load of crap. How many of the penalties were against Healy? They were mainly against Ross and how many were actually correct? He also made some strong carries and was strong in defence.

I question numerous constant errors over a one off flash every time. You are being incredibly harsh on him.

Healy actually made 0 tackles, so I don't know how you can say he was strong in defence (you can check that here: http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/match/133792.html). In comparison, Paul James made 8 tackles, missing 0.

In fairness, I think you're probably right with the penalty thing. Ross gave away 3 penalties, Healy 1. However, I find it difficult to see past the cynical nature of Healy's leg stamping at the moment. Would Gatland want a prop who is willing to do something as dangerous as that over someone like James who puts in a lot of work in the loose as well as generally being strong in the scrum. The only penalties James conceded in that game were through the scrum, something which is rarely cynical - why would any prop want to give away penalties at the scrum? And it is very rare for James to concede penalties in the scrum anyway, he is usually better than Jenkins tbh.

 

[big ginger 8]

Healy actually made 0 tackles, so I don't know how you can say he was strong in defence (you can check that here: http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/match/133792.html). In comparison, Paul James made 8 tackles, missing 0.

In fairness, I think you're probably right with the penalty thing. Ross gave away 3 penalties, Healy 1. However, I find it difficult to see past the cynical nature of Healy's leg stamping at the moment. Would Gatland want a prop who is willing to do something as dangerous as that over someone like James who puts in a lot of work in the loose as well as generally being strong in the scrum. The only penalties James conceded in that game were through the scrum, something which is rarely cynical - why would any prop want to give away penalties at the scrum? And it is very rare for James to concede penalties in the scrum anyway, he is usually better than Jenkins tbh.

As I always say when quoted with ESPN stats I don't trust them especially for tackles. Also defense is more than just tackling he was constantly slowing down ball although I don't think he stole anything. Also as a sidenote Healy had the most tackles in the 6n after the first two rounds an incredible statistic for a prop.

Do you think Gatland won't bring Heaslip because he kneed McCaw in 2010 or Hartley because he bit Ferris? The only reason people are making an issue out of it is because it was recent. Healy has had nearly 40 caps and 90 appearances for Leinster and done one stupid thing. He has said how he regretted and it has affected him given the abuse he's been given over it including his first ever hatemail. I don't think he's like to do it again. He's received his punishment (however wrong you may think it was) should one stupid moment cost him a starting spot? He also offers much more than James in the lose and is more than able to scrummage well against Australia.

Also as a prop scrum penalties often are cynical. You're going backward or struggling so you pull it down or stand up hoping for a reset or maybe even a penalty to you.

 

[Joseph14]

Seems like people are changing their minds on a minute to minute, scrum to scrum basis!

Ireland win a scrum...Healy is the man! Ireland lose a scrum, Healy is a liability etc etc

Luckily, Gatland and co won't be changing their mind so frequently.

Cole, Healy, Jones are still the outstanding three to tour. They will all go. None of their form has dropped to silly standards ( like Warburtons did for example ) and they have undoubted quality.

Its a shame Corbisiero has problems with injuries. I think he would tour. Sheridan has a real chance too.

 

[Amiga500]

However, I find it difficult to see past the cynical nature of Healy's leg stamping at the moment. Would Gatland want a prop who is willing to do something as dangerous as that over someone like James who puts in a lot of work in the loose as well as generally being strong in the scrum. The only penalties James conceded in that game were through the scrum, something which is rarely cynical - why would any prop want to give away penalties at the scrum?

Now that is hyperbole, not to mention grossly incorrect.


Healy stamped the leg because Cole had lifted his leg to prevent Murray getting the ball back! Its there on the video footage. There was a good reason for it - he just stamped down with far too much force rather than only put enough weight down to move Cole's leg out of the road.

 

[Tony Manx]

.................he just stamped down with far too much force rather than only put enough weight down to move Cole's leg out of the road.

A stamp is a stamp is a stamp.......................or can one be just a little bit pregnant?

 

[dullonien]

As I always say when quoted with ESPN stats I don't trust them especially for tackles.

You are right to question ESPN's stats, but you can still use them as a guideline. If they are out, they will only be out by one or two...... As we have no other source of statistics, they can't be completely discounted.

 

[Aedaphon]

Scotland have confirmed that lock Richie Gray will miss their final match of the Six Nations against France due to injury.Gray was stretchered off in the first-half of Saturday's match against Wales with what looked to be a serious injury. Scotland boss Scott Johnson confirmed post-match that Gray suffered a hamstring injury and that he is set to spend a "significant time away from the game".
"He's in a pretty bad way," Johnson said of Gray's injury. "It's more hamstring but we're not sure of the depth of that. He'll play again this season, I'm sure of that. But it will be a significant time away from the game."

http://www.espnscrum.com/six-nations-2013/rugby/story/178497.html

Bad news for Gray. Given that the locks on tour don't seem to be locked down like certain other positions, this could prove fatal to his chances of getting on the plane...

 

[Peat]

A stamp is a stamp is a stamp.......................or can one be just a little bit pregnant?

Poor comparison. Some things can be graded by degree, some can't. As that stamp could have been a hell of a lot worse and a hell of a lot better, it is clearly one of the former.

While Gatland wasn't in control during the occasion, it should be noted that Bradley Davies' spear tackle did not affect his participation in Wales' Australia's series - isolated incidents of poor discipline will not be an issue.

 

[Ospreylian]

Now that is hyperbole, not to mention grossly incorrect.


Healy stamped the leg because Cole had lifted his leg to prevent Murray getting the ball back! Its there on the video footage. There was a good reason for it - he just stamped down with far too much force rather than only put enough weight down to move Cole's leg out of the road.

Whether Cole did anything to provoke it or not doesn't change the intent Healy had to cause harm. That's what I have a problem with, players doing things like that with intent, regardless of whether they have been provoked. No player deserves to have their leg stamped on with such force, even if they have done something illegal (but non-dangerous). What Cole did was cynical, yes, but only in terms of the gameplay. Healy was cynical in a way that suggests he may have a lack of a calm temperament. I know from the past that Gatland really dislikes play that puts people in danger or is cynical. With Wales he has dropped players for doing similar things.

Other than the first weekend, I can't see that Healy has offered anything more than James as a prop. I also think it is ridiculous that players that commit such offences as Healy has can be back playing so soon after it occurred. How is it that a tip tackle by Warburton in the world cup that had no intent to cause harm and was just a bit foolish received such a longer ban than Healy's offence?

 

[TommyV]

Just for discussion purposes, my updated side:

1 Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, Cian Healy
2 Rory Best, Richard Hibbard, Tom Youngs
3 Adam Jones, Dan Cole

4 Ian Evans, Joe Launchbury, Donnacha Ryan
5 Geoff Parling, Alun Wyn Jones

6 Tom Wood, Dan Lydiate
8 Ben Morgan, Toby Faleteu
7 Chris Robshaw, Sam Warburton, Sean O'Brien

9 Danny Care, Mike Phillips, Greg Laidlaw
10 Johnny Sexton, Owen Farrell

12 Brad Barritt, Jamie Roberts, Luke Marshall
13 Manu Tuilagi, Brian O'Driscoll

11 George North, Tim Visser
15 Leigh Halfpenny, Stuart Hogg, Rob Kearney
14 Tommy Bowe, Alex Cuthbert

Just some notes:

• Hibbard has probably been the form hooker in the 6N for me. Sealed that 2nd hooker spot behind Best. Youngs is a wildcard because of his breakdown prowess and work in the loose. Line-out throwing needs to be good though in the lead up to the tour and needs to establish himself as England starter.
• Jenkins can be the prop to cover both sides with James taking the 5th prop spot.
• Back row notes: Lydiate for me has to tour if fit and on form. Morgan & Faleteu the 8's for contrasting attacking/defensive purposes. Wood and O'Brien offer cover across the back row and in good form. Robshaw obviously has to tour on form and is a potential captain. Last spot up for grabs, I'd want a genuine 7 so between Warburton and Tipuric, dependent on their form leading up to the tour. Still an edge to Warburton atm for me.
• Laidlaw can cover 10 for some build up games, allows an extra spot elsewhere. Shame for Biggar though who's been playing okay. He's lucky to tour Laidlaw, mainly only on the basis that he's versatile and covers both half-back spots.
• Wildcard 12 slot open for grabs between Marshall and Twelvetrees. Barritt is the defensive rock, Roberts I'd be tempted to take incase he can regain form and would also try him out at 13, but need a more natural 12. Edge to Marshall because he's playing more regularly atm and impressing, but open for grabs in the lead up to the tour.

I believe that's 15 Welshman, 10 English and Irishman apiece and a couple of Scots.

 

[big ginger 8]

Whether Cole did anything to provoke it or not doesn't change the intent Healy had to cause harm. That's what I have a problem with, players doing things like that with intent, regardless of whether they have been provoked. No player deserves to have their leg stamped on with such force, even if they have done something illegal (but non-dangerous). What Cole did was cynical, yes, but only in terms of the gameplay. Healy was cynical in a way that suggests he may have a lack of a calm temperament. I know from the past that Gatland really dislikes play that puts people in danger or is cynical. With Wales he has dropped players for doing similar things.

Other than the first weekend, I can't see that Healy has offered anything more than James as a prop. I also think it is ridiculous that players that commit such offences as Healy has can be back playing so soon after it occurred. How is it that a tip tackle by Warburton in the world cup that had no intent to cause harm and was just a bit foolish received such a longer ban than Healy's offence?

Have you seen the stamp in live time it's hardly the worst thing ever to happen on a pitch like you're trying to make out. It was not with an incredible force. It was bad but not terrible. Also how much can you read into one incident in 138 senior games. Do you do the same for Heaslip and Hartley? It's almost looking like you have an agenda against him.

When has Gatland nt picked players who've done something as pointed out Davies was picked after something much worse. Healy got his ban it's not his fault the IRB gave what you felt to be a lenient ban. Also no matter about intent a spear tackle is so much more dangerous and foolish than a stamp.

What has James done from the bench to suggest he should start? Healy has been at least very good in every games he's played this 6n.

 

[psychic duck]

Just for discussion purposes, my updated side:

1 Gethin Jenkins, Paul James, Cian Healy
2 Rory Best, Richard Hibbard, Tom Youngs
3 Adam Jones, Dan Cole

4 Ian Evans, Joe Launchbury, Donnacha Ryan
5 Geoff Parling, Alun Wyn Jones

6 Tom Wood, Dan Lydiate
8 Ben Morgan, Toby Faleteu
7 Chris Robshaw, Sam Warburton, Sean O'Brien

9 Danny Care, Mike Phillips, Greg Laidlaw
10 Johnny Sexton, Owen Farrell

12 Brad Barritt, Jamie Roberts, Luke Marshall
13 Manu Tuilagi, Brian O'Driscoll

11 George North, Tim Visser
15 Leigh Halfpenny, Stuart Hogg, Rob Kearney
14 Tommy Bowe, Alex Cuthbert

Just some notes:

• Hibbard has probably been the form hooker in the 6N for me. Sealed that 2nd hooker spot behind Best. Youngs is a wildcard because of his breakdown prowess and work in the loose. Line-out throwing needs to be good though in the lead up to the tour and needs to establish himself as England starter.
• Jenkins can be the prop to cover both sides with James taking the 5th prop spot.
• Back row notes: Lydiate for me has to tour if fit and on form. Morgan & Faleteu the 8's for contrasting attacking/defensive purposes. Wood and O'Brien offer cover across the back row and in good form. Robshaw obviously has to tour on form and is a potential captain. Last spot up for grabs, I'd want a genuine 7 so between Warburton and Tipuric, dependent on their form leading up to the tour. Still an edge to Warburton atm for me.
• Laidlaw can cover 10 for some build up games, allows an extra spot elsewhere. Shame for Biggar though who's been playing okay. He's lucky to tour Laidlaw, mainly only on the basis that he's versatile and covers both half-back spots.
• Wildcard 12 slot open for grabs between Marshall and Twelvetrees. Barritt is the defensive rock, Roberts I'd be tempted to take incase he can regain form and would also try him out at 13, but need a more natural 12. Edge to Marshall because he's playing more regularly atm and impressing, but open for grabs in the lead up to the tour.

I believe that's 15 Welshman, 10 English and Irishman apiece and a couple of Scots.

Gatland has already said what the make up of the squad will be. He is taking a squad of 36 with 19 forwards and 16 backs. With 3 hookers, 3 scrum halves, 3 fly halves, and extra props. With the rest being two players per position (http://www.espnscrum.com/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/175100.html).

So you need to cut one of the full backs, one of the centres, one of the back rowers, one of the locks as well as adding in another tighthead and fly half to that squad. Also there is no need for versatile props anymore, international rugby has 23 man squads. Gethin hasn't played tighthead for ages anyway. Gatland also said he's not taking players on "versatility usefulness", so Laidlaw covering fly half won't be adding to his selection chances, his place will be judged purely on his scrum half form.

What has James done from the bench to suggest he should start?

Not saying he should start after Healy's good form this season, and Jenkins good performance in Italy but ...

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Gatland has already said what the make up of the squad will be. He is taking a squad of 36 with 19 forwards and 16 backs. With 3 hookers, 3 scrum halves, 3 fly halves, and extra props. With the rest being two players per position (http://www.espnscrum.com/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/175100.html).

So you need to cut one of the full backs, one of the centres, one of the back rowers, one of the locks as well as adding in another tighthead and fly half to that squad. Also there is no need for versatile props anymore, international rugby has 23 man squads. Gethin hasn't played tighthead for ages anyway. Gatland also said he's not taking players on "versatility usefulness", so Laidlaw covering fly half won't be adding to his selection chances, his place will be judged purely on his scrum half form.



Not saying he should start after Healy's good form this season, and Jenkins good performance in Italy but ...

I know Warren has said he will take 36, but I have a feeling it will be nearer to 40.

 

[psychic duck]

I know Warren has said he will take 36, but I have a feeling it will be nearer to 40.

Why? He can just fly out replacement if somebody gets injured. Woodward selected a huge squad with 4 fly halves, scrum halves, hookers etc in 2005 and it didn't work out as it minimised game time for some players. Gatland doesn't want to do that mistake I don't think.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I really don't think Barritt has done anything to merit a spot. He's an excellent defender but incredibly limited elsewhere. I think if Gatland was sensible he would bring 5 centres.

12. Roberts and Scott (He's really gone under the radar but he's a good defender, handy with the ball and can kick quite well at times) or Marshall
12 1/2. Tuilagi (As in try him at 12 with BOD, if it works it could be a brilliant pairing, if it doesn't let them battle it out)
13. O'Driscoll and Davies

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What's Roberts done that Barritt hasn't though?
Neither has really stood out on attack.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Draggs]

What's Roberts done that Barritt hasn't though?
Neither has really stood out on attack.

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Be Welsh. Therefore, Roberts wins.