2013 British and Irish Lions

McTallshort · Feb 16, 2013

Peat said:
Not every 8's meant to be as slow as Jordan Crane you know!

We like our 8s slow up here, Thomas the tank was force fed curry when he first arrived in the East Midlands as he was seen as a bit of a wip-a-snapper, went too far in my opinion...

UlsterRugby2012 · Feb 16, 2013

Thingimubob said:
Personally I'd love to see Robshaw and Tipuric starting together, big fan of both players and both have simply outstanding workrates. We've been harping on in Wales about starting two out and out 7s together for bloody ages, and while Robshaw isn't really seen as an out and out 7 (personally I see him as a 6.5 - and a bloody good one at that) I reckon it'd be damn effective. However a lot of this is still to be decided with Ferris, Lydiate (before injury I'd have started one of these two at 6) and Croft yet to come back from injury.

Tallshort - I do get your point about us losing to the Aussies with Warburton, however as dull said, Warburton was woefully out of form and match time in the tour down under - still baffles me why they chose not to play him against the Barbarians when he hadn't played a single minute of rugby since the 6 Nations, and he still hadn't quite got to his best when the AI's rolled around. If I remember correctly, there were a lot of calls for Tipuric to start pretty much all of those games.

Ferris will be fit for selection, provided he doesn't get injured again after he gets back. How long before Lydiate is expected to be back?

Peat · Feb 16, 2013

dullonien said:
How much has he played at 8? What's his ball control like at the back of the scrum? I've seen other flankers converted to 8, and their ball control at scrum time has been appalling, namely Jon Thomas and Rob McCusker. As we'd hope to be on top in the scrum, it's important to have that control at the back, so we can take full advantage.

A fair bit; think one of his more recent games in his come back for Leinster was at 8, and I know he's had a few games here and there covering for Heaslip, including one for Ireland fairly early in his career. I can't recall any howlers in terms of ball control, although it could have been neater; but he's no Haskell, wouldn't be mentioning if he was.

Think you'd probably want to decide early doors he was up for an 8 slot in the tour and play him a lot there though.

dullonien · Feb 16, 2013

UlsterRugby2012 said:
Ferris will be fit for selection, provided he doesn't get injured again after he gets back. How long before Lydiate is expected to be back?

Expected to be fit in the coming weeks. There's been reports that he should be fit for the England game, but no idea if that will include a game or two for the Dragons first.

UlsterRugby2012 · Feb 16, 2013

Do you think the Lions will try and employ the choke tackle? I know most teams do it every now and then, but trying to do it constantly has worked so effectively for Ireland, it's such a useful tactic.

McTallshort · Feb 16, 2013

UlsterRugby2012 said:
Do you think the Lions will try and employ the choke tackle? I know most teams do it every now and then, but trying to do it constantly has worked so effectively for Ireland, it's such a useful tactic.

I am guessing Gatland being a Kiwi will go for more of a rucking game, shame because I saw it most effectivly used against the aussies in the WC.

Crapspray · Feb 16, 2013

dullonien said:
It's not just for fetching, it's for all the other aspect of a game that a traditional 7 does, especially link-play. This could be decisive down under, where chances will need to be taken, and the game is likely to be played at a furious pace.

Did you watch the England versus Scotland game? Robshaw spent half of it mopping up and securing possession. Link play is what he does day-in day-out at 'Quins. He's also considered one of the fittest players in the England team, spending time doing extra training with Tom Wood (the fittest). Not to mention he gets through more work than anyone else during matches; tackles and carrying.

dullonien said:
No matter what number Robshaw wears on his back, his skill-set is better suited to blindside, and that's the game he plays 90% of the time.

Except for the last few years he's played at 7 for club and country...

The desperation for an 'genuine' or 'out-and-out' open-side really is a straw man. Most of the people listed as one have inferior stats to the peasant 6.5s. James Haskell got four turnovers in 35 minutes against Scotland as a blind-side playing blind-side. Heck, Wales put two 'genuine' open-sides on the pitch against Ireland, it didn't make them unstoppable or even stop them getting turned over. The idea, as well, that suddenly fielding 'genuine' open-sides makes teams much better at securing possession is fairly fatuous. England were destroyed at the breakdown against Australia because the Wallaby pack was far better, not simply because of Robshaw versus Hooper. Similarly, few would argue that Robshaw is a better open-side than McCaw, yet England certainly won the breakdown against the All Blacks two weeks later. If we want the Lions to win the breakdown it will take the whole pack performing, not just one forward playing with the sobriquet of 'genuine'. Robshaw has proven, time and time again, that he can consistently perform and get through a huge amount of work. That's what we want, isn't it?

UlsterRugby2012 · Feb 16, 2013

We need balance in the pack, and the best way to do that is to have a 'proper' 7, proper 6 and and a proper 8. I don't like all this converting positions, and being a '6.5'.
Robshaw is a class act, you don't need to prove that, but there's no way he's more of a 7 than Tipuric. I'd happily see Robshaw play 6 for the Lions, not 7.
6: Robshaw / O'Brien
7: Tipruic / Rennie
8: Morgan / Heaslip / Faletau

dullonien · Feb 16, 2013

I'm not denying that Robshaw is a brilliant player, and yes I agree that it's the pack as a whole that wins games, not just one player. However there is no denying that there is a difference between the numerous 6.5's playing at the moment (SOB, Robshaw) and the classical openside, as Peat termed it (Tipuric, McCaw, Pocock, Hooper). Robshaw is a 6.5, a very good one, but I still think he'd be even more effective on the blindside alongside a classical openside like Tipuric.

All of those things you attribute to Robshaw, Tipuric does better imo, the turnover work, the link-play, the open field running (sidesteps anyone?) and I've also heard that Tips is up there with the fittest Welsh players, if not the fittest. What Robshaw is better at though, is the type of work usually more attributed to a blindside, the grunt work, the tackling, the carrying.

Ultimately, I'm not really saying Robshaw OR Tipuric, I'm saying Robshaw AND Tipuric.

Edit. England play with two 6.5's really in Robshaw and Wood, in a similar way to how France employ left and right flankers instead of blindside and openside (although in England's case Robshaw does stay on the openside of scrums). On top of this, Cole is very evident in the rucks, jackling ball. It works well, but means that if Robshaw does stay at 7 for the Lions, the 6 has to fit that 6.5 mould as well, so SOB or Wood, over Ferris, Lydiate or Ryan Jones.

McTallshort · Feb 16, 2013

Lets see what happens for the rest of the 6N, Ferris and Lydiate are both due back as is Croft so all this chat might come to nothing, although it would be interesting if in Cardiff in March Messers Robshaw and Tipuric were to go head to head.....

UlsterRugby2012 · Feb 16, 2013

Tallshort said:
Lets see what happens for the rest of the 6N, Ferris and Lydiate are both due back as is Croft so all this chat might come to nothing, although it would be interesting if in Cardiff in March Messers Robshaw and Tipuric were to go head to head.....

I don't really think Croft has much of a chance in the starting XV

McTallshort · Feb 16, 2013

That got said last time and he ended up in the test side scoring some tries. Gatland knows what he can bring to the party so I wouldnt be suprised if I see him touring.

UlsterRugby2012 · Feb 16, 2013

I would

Peat · Feb 16, 2013

Just to be all snobby, I'm not sure Pocock really counts as a classical openside. He is a devastatingly effective jackal, but his link play, his tracking of the carrier? I might be forgetting it, but he's never struck me as a classical openside, not like say Martyn Williams was or Hooper's turning out to be.

I would also like to make the prediction that the front row jackal will become more and more of a thing.

Dull - Fez fits very easily into a 6.5 mould. So too Lydiate in a way, but in a way so very similar to Robshaw I don't think I'd want to play the two together. Lydiate and O'Brien though, I could see that.

Ulsterrugby - Saying that because of his injury, or more a case of not rating him? Any particular reason if the latter?

duncanb · Feb 16, 2013

IMHO the reason why teams can turn over is due to speed of a player wether 7 or not getting to tackle/breakdown first on his feet or not if quicker than ref ; teams that are turned over is due to lack of supporting players and players clearing out quickly enough at breakdown.
It could be a point that a genuine 7 is a player who is the first up tackler who then allows another to turnover before a ruck can form or is quick enough back to feet to turnover himself as a 'Pocock' for example and a McCaw is a good example of a player off his feet who is quicker than the ref.
My own choice at present for what we have in NH is Tipuric but he is not as good as either Pocock/McCaw or Hooper.
If the Lions select some Forwards with abit of pace around the breakdown/tackle area's then wether an allout 7 is select will be not as much of an issue.
We all have our own choice's for positions of the starting 15 but my pack would contain players with speed in relation to their position as whilst the Aussie pack may not be the strongest in the world they are a fairly quick unit.

UlsterRugby2012 · Feb 16, 2013

Peat said:
Ulsterrugby - Saying that because of his injury, or more a case of not rating him? Any particular reason if the latter?

Uhm mostly the former, although I think he's a little overrated at times (however I thought his try vs France was spectacular). How many games has he played in the last 9 months? Very few, he's basically starting from scratch after a serious injury - and there's so many form players that can fit the position. I suppose he has the experience, and Lydiate and Ferris are both coming back from injury too, but they haven't really been long term injuries. (In Ferris's case anyway)I still think he's a good player, just not starting XV quality.

McTallshort · Feb 16, 2013

You could go for one of those big back rows that England used to use in the mid 90s when Ben Clarke was open side.

6.Ryan Jones/Tom Wood
7.O'B
8.Morgan

Would put the squeeze on the Aussies which does work from time to time

Joseph14 · Feb 17, 2013

Crapspray said:
Did you watch the England versus Scotland game? Robshaw spent half of it mopping up and securing possession. Link play is what he does day-in day-out at 'Quins. He's also considered one of the fittest players in the England team, spending time doing extra training with Tom Wood (the fittest). Not to mention he gets through more work than anyone else during matches; tackles and carrying.

Except for the last few years he's played at 7 for club and country...

The desperation for an 'genuine' or 'out-and-out' open-side really is a straw man. Most of the people listed as one have inferior stats to the peasant 6.5s. James Haskell got four turnovers in 35 minutes against Scotland as a blind-side playing blind-side. Heck, Wales put two 'genuine' open-sides on the pitch against Ireland, it didn't make them unstoppable or even stop them getting turned over. The idea, as well, that suddenly fielding 'genuine' open-sides makes teams much better at securing possession is fairly fatuous. England were destroyed at the breakdown against Australia because the Wallaby pack was far better, not simply because of Robshaw versus Hooper. Similarly, few would argue that Robshaw is a better open-side than McCaw, yet England certainly won the breakdown against the All Blacks two weeks later. If we want the Lions to win the breakdown it will take the whole pack performing, not just one forward playing with the sobriquet of 'genuine'. Robshaw has proven, time and time again, that he can consistently perform and get through a huge amount of work. That's what we want, isn't it?

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