2012 New Zealand Squads

[donmcdazzle]

I think Leonard is a much better halfback for Cruden. Cruds dominates for the Turbo's cause Smith whips it quickly off the deck, clears it really fast. Cruden hasn't looked good playing outside Weepu who takes a few steps before passing it (similar to what Kerr-Barlow does). Cruden needs a pass-first halfback to really look good and get the backline going.

All signs look like Rennie wants to play the same ruck and run style the Turbos play; if there's quick ball it goes wide.

 

[donmcdazzle]

You for real? You can hardly accuse Hammett of being Wellington biased.

How do you explain Motu Matu'u getting picked above Rob Foreman? Matu'u played a handful of games off the bench for the Lions and looked decidedly average. Foreman has started something like 60 games in a row for Manawatu, and was a key part of their pack that were great this season, and had one of the most successful lineouts in the ITM cup. This sort of selection is disgraceful. If Matu'u was sitting on the bench for the Turbos (better team than Wellington this year) do you think he would've been picked? No, but cause he is a Wellington player he gets picked. Ridiculous.

 

[ranger]

I'd disagree there, but I do think it is hard to accurately compare the passing game of two players. Kerr-Barlow has a very good passing game (one of the best in the country), but I think Smith's passing is better, both in distance and accuracy. You only have to look at how much time Cruden has when he plays for Manawatu. I really rate Kerr-Barlow, and I actually think he has the potential to be a better player than Smith - not only does he have a strong passing game, but he is a big physical defender, and is dangerous whenever he runs (not that Smith isn't a dangerous runner, just that Kerr-Barlow has a better running game). My main issue with Kerr-Barlow is that he often tries to do far too much himself, but that is something he will (hopefully) improve as he gets more experienced. I really hope Kerr-Barlow gets plenty of starts for the Chiefs this season, as he (and Smith) look like they could be quality AB's halfbacks within the next couple of years.

Yeah its not just that he tries to do too much himself, the way he goes about doing those things is often just silly. A lot of unneccesary behind the back and no look passes.

I think it will come down to Smith, Kerr-Barlow and Parenara for 9 in the next couple of world cups. Parenara is behind the other two at the moment but he is the youngest (still back in the under 20s next year) and brings potential of leadership qualities, goal kicking ability and the ability to control a game from 9 that the others don't at this stage.

We are looking at a 9 trio for 2015/2019 of:

Smith: Potential world class passing game, quality decision making, agile runner in the pocket
Kerr-Barlow: Game-breaking runner, powerful defender for a 9, tidy passing game
Parenara: Leadership, playmaking and backline commanding, goal kicking

Thats a better 9 selection than NZ has had in a very long time

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

That being said we are looking at them mainly based on potential at the moment Let's see where we're at a year or two from now...

 

[ranger]

That being said we are looking at them mainly based on potential at the moment Let's see where we're at a year or two from now...

Obviously, but still, i dont think NZ has been in a position with this much potential at 9 before.

 

[William18]

How do you explain Motu Matu'u getting picked above Rob Foreman? Matu'u played a handful of games off the bench for the Lions and looked decidedly average. Foreman has started something like 60 games in a row for Manawatu, and was a key part of their pack that were great this season, and had one of the most successful lineouts in the ITM cup. This sort of selection is disgraceful. If Matu'u was sitting on the bench for the Turbos (better team than Wellington this year) do you think he would've been picked? No, but cause he is a Wellington player he gets picked. Ridiculous.

Well, I don't know who Rob Foreman is. A big difference between a bad call and bias in any case. Disagree about Matu'u looking average as well.

 

[nickdnz]

Obviously, but still, i dont think NZ has been in a position with this much potential at 9 before.

Well, at one stage there was Marshall, Devine, Kelleher, Weepu etc...

I'm not sold on either Peranara or Kerr-Barlow. Peranara looks like he's a little lost at NPC level in my opinion (I know he's still very young) and Kerr-Barlow makes stupid errors where he tries to be too tricky. Not saying they won't eventually become good, but I'm not convinced they'll be as good as some of the other AB halfbacks. At this stage I'd still take Mathewson and potentially Weepu into the next World Cup with Aaron Smith the third.

 

[ranger]

Well, I don't know who Rob Foreman is. A big difference between a bad call and bias in any case. Disagree about Matu'u looking average as well.

That sort of shows the Wellington bias he was talking about man.. Rob Foreman is a quality player and a stand out for a side that performed far better than Wellington did. You would think that the starting hooker from a well performed side would have the inside running over a bench hooker from an average side.

Well, at one stage there was Marshall, Devine, Kelleher, Weepu etc...

I'm not sold on either Peranara or Kerr-Barlow. Peranara looks like he's a little lost at NPC level in my opinion (I know he's still very young) and Kerr-Barlow makes stupid errors where he tries to be too tricky. Not saying they won't eventually become good, but I'm not convinced they'll be as good as some of the other AB halfbacks. At this stage I'd still take Mathewson and potentially Weepu into the next World Cup with Aaron Smith the third.

Weepu is 10 years younger than Marshall haha, they can hardly be seen as the same sort of draft class which is what i was getting at.

I don't know, i guess ive biased myself by seeing a lot of them in younger levels, but i'm convinced they could all be internationals. One massive reason is the sheer amount of specialised coaching that Parenara and Kerr-Barlow are getting. Kerr-Barlow was signed by Waikato and started training with the squad at 17, Parenara played for Wellington at 17, while still in school. These guys should be monsters by the time they hit their mid 20s.

 

[james5000]

I see people moaning about Wellington bias in the Hurricanes, well its just what seem's to happen in this ridiculous competition. The major teams in the region always have a huge bias towards their players.

Look at the Chiefs squad it has 3 Bop players from this years ITM Cup (we have 4 now that Retallick is now a BOP man) and 2 Counties players.
I think its pretty disgusting when you consider we have 7 Hawkes Bay reps (6 without Retallick), and 4 Taranaki reps plus 2 Manawatu reps.


I know I don't speak on behalf of all BOP and Counties fan's but the Chiefs can get ****ed, I hope they get hammered.

Where the hell is Bourke, he's the best number 8 in our region and we don't need broken down washed up Wellington rejects in our team (Waldrom). We should have never let Luke Braid out of our grasp.

I think we would go a bit better if we had some loyalty, we don't need basically a whole team that has no affiliation to our region.

I

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

You can't really say the major teams are biased, because Taranki etc. players obviously aren't from Waikato.

That's not say I don't think we should have more players from BoP and Counties (though I think there are probably more deserving players in Waikato), but you can't blame the lack of those players on the 'major team in the region'.

Bourke doesn't do enough of the tight work, he spends too much time in the backline. I thought Waldrom was one of our top two forwards last season, so I don't know why you're heckling him.

 

[james5000]

You can't really say the major teams are biased, because Taranki etc. players obviously aren't from Waikato.

That's not say I don't think we should have more players from BoP and Counties (though I think there are probably more deserving players in Waikato), but you can't blame the lack of those players on the 'major team in the region'.

Bourke doesn't do enough of the tight work, he spends too much time in the backline. I thought Waldrom was one of our top two forwards last season, so I don't know why you're heckling him.

Waikato still have 8 players in the squad, which is double BOP and Counties combined (close enough to double). Historically its been much worse than that obviously

Colin Bourke has never been given a fair go with the Chiefs, he makes a good impact when he plays and he always delivers for the BOP. Why do we need Waldrom in the squad we have too very good 7's and Lee could cover at a pinch pus we have development cover as well. He's basically stealing a BOP spot, ****** me off.

Edit:I didn't blame anything on Waikato, I said that all squads have bias to the major teams and they always will. Stop putting words in my mouth lol

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Sorry it sounded like that what you were saying, considering your complaining about Taranaki etc. came straight after what you were saying about the major teams.

Bourke plays like a back for the Bay, the Chiefs already have fantastic backs - they need the forwards to do the hard grafting, and Bourke isn't the kind of player to do that. That's probably why he missed out on making any squad - that's not Waldrom's fault.

Waldrom played a lot of games at six for us last season, he was fantastic. If anything I'd drop Latimer.

 

[Muzzy]

Where do you see the major weaknesses in the Blues squad? To me it looks like a very strong squad (on paper at least). Weepu may not have that much experience at 10, but he is surely a massive upgrade over Stephen Brett! If the Blues squad can remain fit (perhaps a big IF) they could very well be ***le contenders in my mind. However if they have a few injuries they may struggle, as they probably are lacking a bit of depth in some positions.

While I too am surprised to see Tikoirotuma picked ahead of Tokula, I think it is a good choice. Tokula looks good with the ball in hand, but he is a hopeless defender - he is even liability at NPC level. Tikoirotuma on the other hand not only offers a strong attacking game, but also a pretty good defensive game too from what I've seen (admittedly not a huge amount).

all the Blues midfield players are the same kind of players, they're all guys that get used to break the line but no 12 who can bring a kicking game or good passing game, although Nonu's passing game has gotten a lot better, maybe they play Toeava in the midfield. The only wingers in the team I like are Stowers and Ranger, and thats if they play them on the wing and I don't think Weepu will be good for as at 10, he seems an on and off player when he's the main play maker.

But I am happy to see Lachie Munro in the team, disappointed Matt Luamanu isn't in it

 

[UilamOsa]

all the Blues midfield players are the same kind of players, they're all guys that get used to break the line but no 12 who can bring a kicking game or good passing game, although Nonu's passing game has gotten a lot better, maybe they play Toeava in the midfield. The only wingers in the team I like are Stowers and Ranger, and thats if they play them on the wing and I don't think Weepu will be good for as at 10, he seems an on and off player when he's the main play maker.

But I am happy to see Lachie Munro in the team, disappointed Matt Luamanu isn't in it

Actually they've got Benson Stanley who's a quality number 12. Pat Lam has stated that Ranger is looking at playing in the midfield as well. Jared Payne is their biggest loss for me. With Smylie a close second to Brett. And Wulf played midfield for Harbour. I don't think with all the game time that Nonu's had to date he'll actually start the campaign, maybe a mid round impact player then finals starter

I'd go for the first few matches (barring injuries)

9. Mathewson
10. Weepu
11. Stowers
12. Stanley
13. Ranger
14. Raikuna
15. Toeava

It's a bit flakey without Nonu but if worse comes to worse during the early rounds, I wouldn't be too disappointed if Lachie was at 15, Toeava in the middle and Ranger back on the Wing.

Gutted about Luamanu but with Bourke not picked up either, it just goes to show that there is a fine line between good at ITM and good in S15.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Well, I don't know who Rob Foreman is. A big difference between a bad call and bias in any case. Disagree about Matu'u looking average as well.

The fact you don't know who he is says more about your knowledge than his ability. Tell me how a bench player from a rubbish side (Wellington) gets picked ahead of a starter in a better side with a better forward pack and especially lineout? If you ask any person who watched a decent amount of ITM cup who had a better season out of those two players, the answer would be the same; Foreman by miles. It's clearly Wellington bias.

 

[james5000]

Sorry it sounded like that what you were saying, considering your complaining about Taranaki etc. came straight after what you were saying about the major teams.

Bourke plays like a back for the Bay, the Chiefs already have fantastic backs - they need the forwards to do the hard grafting, and Bourke isn't the kind of player to do that. That's probably why he missed out on making any squad - that's not Waldrom's fault.

Waldrom played a lot of games at six for us last season, he was fantastic. If anything I'd drop Latimer.

That's rubbish Bourke does a lot of work do you even pay any attention to him playing? He makes plenty of tackles and carries the ball, he's great off the back of a scrum, not to mention he has the best ball skills of any number 8 going around. He's an all round player. He's much better than Bradley and i'd give him a definite edge against Fritz Lee too, Bourke has paid his dues, he deserves a contract. Its a shame really.

Latimer is a much better player than Waldrom, Waldrom is just plain washed up. Latimer can play 6 and 7 better than him and he's from the BOP which should give him an edge anyway given he's born and bred from the region. If the Chiefs want to call BOP part of their region they should show some respect and pick some of their players.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

How can you honestly say Latimer is a better player than Waldrom??

 

[james5000]

How can you honestly say Latimer is a better player than Waldrom??

What isn't he better than Waldrom at? Waldrom is an old man and he has the knee's of an even older man, he has a major injury nearly every year.
Waldrom has lost his sharpness, Latimer is still young he's fitter, stonger and faster, and he's got all the skill's Waldrom has and more.

Plus Latimer is BOP born and bred, he's got to be the starting openside,with hopefully Cane the back up.

 

[nickdnz]

That's rubbish Bourke does a lot of work do you even pay any attention to him playing? He makes plenty of tackles and carries the ball, he's great off the back of a scrum, not to mention he has the best ball skills of any number 8 going around. He's an all round player. He's much better than Bradley and i'd give him a definite edge against Fritz Lee too, Bourke has paid his dues, he deserves a contract. Its a shame really.

Latimer is a much better player than Waldrom, Waldrom is just plain washed up. Latimer can play 6 and 7 better than him and he's from the BOP which should give him an edge anyway given he's born and bred from the region. If the Chiefs want to call BOP part of their region they should show some respect and pick some of their players.

Bourke has a terrible work rate. He stands in the backline and often hopes the ball comes his way from fullback. Yes he's got skills for a #8, as he used to be a fullback, unfortunitely he makes less tackles and makes it to the break down hald as much as Waldrom or Lee.

I think you'll be alone in thinking Latimer is a better player than Waldrom. Waldrom was probably the best 7 in this ITM Cup, he looked brilliant for Taranaki. I have a feelling your a bias BoP fan, so I'm not too suprised you like Latimer and Bourke over clearly better players.

 

[Darwin]

That's rubbish Bourke does a lot of work do you even pay any attention to him playing? He makes plenty of tackles and carries the ball, he's great off the back of a scrum, not to mention he has the best ball skills of any number 8 going around. He's an all round player. He's much better than Bradley and i'd give him a definite edge against Fritz Lee too, Bourke has paid his dues, he deserves a contract. Its a shame really.

Latimer is a much better player than Waldrom, Waldrom is just plain washed up. Latimer can play 6 and 7 better than him and he's from the BOP which should give him an edge anyway given he's born and bred from the region. If the Chiefs want to call BOP part of their region they should show some respect and pick some of their players.

I've seen him playing, and I have to agree 100% with Invictus's analysis. Bourke has phenomenal ball skills and can be very dangerous given space, but when was the last time anyone saw him hit a ruck? It's all well and good to look great with ball in hand, but if you aren't doing your primary job as a loose-forward you aren't really that much of an asset to the team. Behind a dominant tight-five I could see the attraction of someone like Bourke, but behind the Chiefs pack I think he would be a bit of a liability.

To be honest I don't think Bradley that much of a better option at Super Rugby level though. He looks very good at ITM Cup level, but just seems to lack a yard or two of pace, which could mean he is far less effective at Super Rugby level. He's the sort of player that won't let the team down, but I can't really see him excelling in Super Rugby.

I have to completely disagree with you on Waldrom too - he is far from washed up. He had a strong Super Rugby season with the Chiefs (before he was injured) - alongside Todd and Luke Braid he was the pick of the New Zealand opensides on display. He followed this up with a great ITM Cup season with Taranaki, where he was in my opinion the best openside flanker in the competition. He is still incredibly fast, is great at the breakdown, and ball carrying and offloading has improved vastly in recent years. Had McCaw been forced out of the RWC with injury I'd have been happy to see him called up into the AB's squad. In contrast Latimer seems to have gone backwards in recent years. He is still a hard working player, but he is not at all dynamic. He tackles well and runs good lines in support, but he is largely ineffective at the breakdown, and offers next to nothing with the ball in hand. He can be effective playing a 'Reuben Thorne' roll alongside a genuine openside (as he did for the Chiefs at the start of last season), but I don't rate him that highly at all as openside flanker.

all the Blues midfield players are the same kind of players, they're all guys that get used to break the line but no 12 who can bring a kicking game or good passing game, although Nonu's passing game has gotten a lot better, maybe they play Toeava in the midfield. The only wingers in the team I like are Stowers and Ranger, and thats if they play them on the wing and I don't think Weepu will be good for as at 10, he seems an on and off player when he's the main play maker.

But I am happy to see Lachie Munro in the team, disappointed Matt Luamanu isn't in it

A really good point on the midfield there. I felt Payne was a real key for the Blues last season, and though I didn't think MacAlsiter had a great season he did provide a number of different options for the midfield. As you suggest the Blues midfield this season looks like it will lack a bit of creativity - it will probably really largely on brute power (especially if there is a Nonu/Ranger combo as has been suggested). I don't think that they will play Toeava in the midfield, but there is no reason why he couldn't enter the backline quite a bit from fullback, which could add a number of different options (as he is a very good passer).

I don't think the Blues have any issues outwide at all: Ranger can be devastating (though he may play at centre), and Rudi Wulf is a very classy player. Stowers, Raikuna, and Moala may lack experience at Super Rugby level, but they are three of the most dangerous attacking players in NZ rugby with the ball in hand.