England 6N 2016 - General Chit Chat

[JJFlash]

So Beaumont has been added to the squad for Italy, presumably as an 8.
I would be delighted to see him play, but as Billy V had a stormer against the Sweaties he ain't going to be dropped, is he?
For me, Beaumont could be as good as Parisse and would bring an extra dimension to the England forwards but what does Eddie want of his no 8?
If Beaumont plays, precious back of the line-out ball would be guaranteed but who could be picked to provide the oomph in the back row, Ewers/Itoje?
A back row of Kvesic/Beaumont/Itoje - thoughts?

 

[j'nuh]

Jones is telling Vunipola that he could be the best 8 in the world (tbf, I don't disagree) and he is a vice-captain. I reckon chances as a starting 8 will be fairly hard to come by for Beaumont (and Morgan).

I would be tempted by Beaumont filling the 19 shirt some time in the future, covering second row and 8, allowing us a specialised flanker in the 20 shirt.

But then one of Kruis, Launchbury or Itoje loses out.

Tough decisions...

 

[JJFlash]

Jones is telling Vunipola that he could be the best 8 in the world (tbf, I don't disagree) and he is a vice-captain. I reckon chances as a starting 8 will be fairly hard to come by for Beaumont (and Morgan).

I would be tempted by Beaumont filling the 19 shirt some time in the future, covering second row and 8, allowing us a specialised flanker in the 20 shirt.

But then one of Kruis, Launchbury or Itoje loses out.

Tough decisions...

Yep. Beaumont on the bench covering 2nd row and 8 sounds the right option to me.
Kruis and Launchbury are nailed on and with Itoje at 6 means that Lawes would be surplus to requirements.

 

[MarkyH]

First post. Hello everyone. From reading this forum throughout the year, and post WC I get the impression we are want to see some minor changes as we have some potential coming through.. I see what EJ is doing regards experience and winning tight games, but it's Italy this weekend and we should beat them (Such English arrogance) with whatever XV we put out, let some fringe players put a marker down etc etc....

So this is the team I'd put out this weekend...

1. Mako
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Kvesic
8. Billy

9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Nowell
12. Devato
13. Daly
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George
17. Marler
18. Brookes
19. Beaumont
20. Clifford
21. Youngs
22. Ford
23. Joseph

Then I'd see what we can do for the Ireland game. Performance depending but I'd bring Haskell back in, maybe Ford and mix the squad up a bit so we have a better balance between youth and experience before slowly bringing more of the younger players into the first XV

 

[Which Tyler]

1. MVunipola - Simple rotation with the bench
2. Hartley - He captained well, even if he's 2nd choice hooker
3. Brookes - Played 80 minutes, so should have answere fitness questions - I won't complain if he's just brought onto the bench
4. Launchbury - If he's fit, then he's the best we've got
5. Kruis - Next best available, did a lot right, and nothing much wrong
6. Robshaw - Bit of a toss up between Robshaw and Haskell, I'd like to see Robshaw show what he can do in his more natural position, we already know that for TOWIH
7. Kvesic - Should have been there already; wouldn't object to him benching whilst Clifford starts
8. BVunipola - Our best forward, and has proven he can keep it going for 80 minutes

09. - we have no good options here, neither Youngs nor Care are the answer, Simpson isn't in the squad, and no-one else looks particularly ready to step up to international rugby (Cook/Chudley not good enough (yet?), Spencer/Robson are not getting the game-time whilst others are). Any Saffers/Kiwis out there with an England granny?
10. Farrell - Ford's confidence is shot and a change of environment is not enough on its own. Fazlet did better than expected at 12, but kept rushing up in defence for no known reason. Playing them together is setting both up to fail; Farrell suits the apparent game-plan better and is in better form (and yes, that did hurt to write)
11. Nowell - Keeps the shirt
12. Devoto - IC is going to be a toss of the dice anyway, and he's the next cab off the rank - earlier than ideal for him, but we've no-one else - still an upgrade on Farrell
13. Joseph - Did enough to keep the shirt, especially if we're keeping changes to a minimum; will help Devoto to have a club mate alongside him
14. Watson - Keeps the shirt
15. Brown - Keeps the shirt

16. Marler
17. George
18. Cole - Rotates out of starting
19. Itoje - Has experienced the camp, now to experience the bench and get on the pitch
20. Clifford
21. as above for #9.
22. Ford - Still need a FH
23. Daly - as above for #19.

So 1 positional change; 2 rotations between bench and starter; 2 new boys on the bench

 

[MarkyH]

And while I'm at it. Here's my 33 man squad for the Australia Tour.... Clean bill of health etc etc..

Mako, Marler
Hartley, George, Youngs
Cole, Brooks
Launchbury, Itoje
Kruis, Lawes
Robshaw, Ewers
Kvesic, Haskell, Clifford
Billy, Beaumont

Youngs, Care, Simpson
Ford, Farrell
Nowell, Lewington
Slade, Tuilagi
Joseph, Daly
Watson, Roko
Brown, Cipriani

(Standby list - Hill, Thomas, Attwood, Morgan, Fraser, Devato, Hill, Goode)

We have so much in depth... Just need to give them a chance to become worldclass now, so that means edging Haskell, Robshaw to the fringes, and playing Itoje, Cliford etc more

That's a cracking squad to be honest

 

[Every Time Ref]

Big dynamic guys with explosive power and good body positions sounds like the ideal to me more or less. I assume by dynamic ETR means speed, more or less. Power and speed is the main thing though.

Yes, basically I mean speed with some power behind it - there's a difference between Haskell's lumbering, slow strength (which has its value to be fair) and O'Brien's explosive power which smashes ruckers and tacklers backwards. Weight is ... not irrelevant exactly, but a tiny part of the equation.

I want to see Mako starting, as another carrier, I'm also well on the Kvesic bandwagon. Second row is good as it is, not sure I'd even bench Lawes (Beaumont instead maybe, and whihcever of Robshaw / Haskell doesn't get the 6 shirt as flanker backup).

In the backs, Farrell still isn't a 12 and Ford isn't, currently, good enough at 10. Farrell-Hill or Farrell-Devoto with everything else the same. Ford on the bench can come on to hopefully pile on the points and give himself some confidence later on against a tired defence. Plus the spare 10 means no need for Goode on the bench. Right ... ?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't want to see too many changes for the sake of it, but some are required:

Our forwards need more oomph with ball in hand. In the back row we need an injection of pace to go alongside the heavy duty carrying. This feels like a straight Clifford for Robshaw swap to me.

Behind, Fazlet to 10 and Devoto, I guess, to 12.

Don't think Brookes is in the 27 but he should come straight back in for the next match.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I don't want to see too many changes for the sake of it, but some are required:

Our forwards need more oomph with ball in hand. In the back row we need an injection of pace to go alongside the heavy duty carrying. This feels like a straight Clifford for Robshaw swap to me.

Behind, Fazlet to 10 and Devoto, I guess, to 12.

Don't think Brookes is in the 27 but he should come straight back in for the next match.

Based purely on back row balance I'd have Kvesic and Clifford into that back row. Realistically, two debutants (effectively) at 6 and 7 is a recipe for disaster, so it's one or t'other. I've always been pro-Kvesic (in a perfect world he'd already have 10-20 caps by now ant this wouldn't be an issue), however the way we look to be trying to play maybe the turnovers are less important than the carrying, maybe CLifford is the way to go.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

First post. Hello everyone. From reading this forum throughout the year, and post WC I get the impression we are want to see some minor changes as we have some potential coming through.. I see what EJ is doing regards experience and winning tight games, but it's Italy this weekend and we should beat them (Such English arrogance) with whatever XV we put out, let some fringe players put a marker down etc etc....

So this is the team I'd put out this weekend...

1. Mako
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Kvesic
8. Billy

9. Care
10. Farrell
11. Nowell
12. Devato
13. Daly
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George
17. Marler
18. Brookes
19. Beaumont
20. Clifford
21. Youngs
22. Ford
23. Joseph

Then I'd see what we can do for the Ireland game. Performance depending but I'd bring Haskell back in, maybe Ford and mix the squad up a bit so we have a better balance between youth and experience before slowly bringing more of the younger players into the first XV

I'd love to see that team, although I'd probably keep Haskell in and put him in over Itoje, drop Itoje to the bench for Clifford. Oh, and for me I'd have to go with Devoto over Devato. Just a slightly better player in my opinion. I always like the idea of Young sstarting and Care being able to ramp up the pace later on, not sure why Youngs didn't start last week but Care did a fine job as expected anyway.

 

[MarkyH]

I'd love to see that team, although I'd probably keep Haskell in and put him in over Itoje, drop Itoje to the bench for Clifford. Oh, and for me I'd have to go with Devoto over Devato. Just a slightly better player in my opinion. I always like the idea of Young sstarting and Care being able to ramp up the pace later on, not sure why Youngs didn't start last week but Care did a fine job as expected anyway.

You say Devoto I say Devato.... :-D I'd also be tempted to keep one of Haskell or Robshaw in the back row, and that would mean Clifford or Beaumont dropping out for me... I wan't them all to get game time though this 6N so I think rotation is key right now

 

[TRF_Olyy]

They're all professional players, they don't need someone to hold their hands.
Haskell shouldn't be getting more caps just because he HAS more caps than the others.

 

[Every Time Ref]

They're all professional players, they don't need someone to hold their hands.
Haskell shouldn't be getting more caps just because he HAS more caps than the others.

Totally agree on an individual level, but over the team as a whole, and units within that team, there's a lot to be said for not having too many inexperienced players concentrated together. "A balance of youth and experience" is a cliche for a reason.

 

[ncurd]

Lots of people saying bench Ford he's out of form and fair enough I see that.

But we're playing Italy next and looking to rack up a score (nice to admit it for a change). So what's more likely racking up a score with an in-form Farrell or out-of-form Ford, remember we're not really looking at defensive prowess in this game we should be able to manage Italy well enough on that front regardless of who plays at 10. More importantly isn't this exactly the kind of try to fill your boots game that Ford may have the chance to find some form in. It'll probably be the least pressured game he's played in for months and with Bath's position in the table and England's next three games the least pressured one he's likely to play for some time.

Just saying I'd start with Ford it's the Ireland and Wales games we don't want him to go searching for his form in when Farrell is deemed not good enough with 20 mins on the clock and more than one try needed.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Can't see Eddie making that many changes TBH.

Reckon it could be

1) Marler
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Launchbury
5) Kruis
6) Clifford
7) Haskell (I would pick Kevsic)
8) Vunipola
9) Youngs
10) Ford (Farrell for me)
11) Watson
12) Farrell (Devoto)
13) JJ
14) Nowell
15) Brown

16) George
17) Vunipola
18) Hills
19) Itojie
20) Beaumont
21) Care
22) Goode (Ford)
23) Daly

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Based purely on back row balance I'd have Kvesic and Clifford into that back row. Realistically, two debutants (effectively) at 6 and 7 is a recipe for disaster, so it's one or t'other. I've always been pro-Kvesic (in a perfect world he'd already have 10-20 caps by now ant this wouldn't be an issue), however the way we look to be trying to play maybe the turnovers are less important than the carrying, maybe CLifford is the way to go.

All agreed, but EJ clearly has some doubts over Kvesic. Wonder if his dream flankers are Clifford and Underhill either side of a unit like Billy or Hughes?

 

[Every Time Ref]

Can't see Eddie making that many changes TBH.

Reckon it could be

1) Marler
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Launchbury
5) Kruis
6) Clifford
7) Haskell (I would pick Kevsic)
8) Vunipola
9) Youngs
10) Ford (Farrell for me)
11) Watson
12) Farrell (Devoto)
13) JJ
14) Nowell
15) Brown

16) George
17) Vunipola
18) Hills
19) Itojie
20) Beaumont
21) Care
22) Goode (Ford)
23) Daly

I'd also be happy with that, as I said previously I don't think I'd pick both Clifford and Kvesic but agree that I'd rather have Ford on the bench and Farrell starting ten.

Ncurd's points on Ford are good though, I wouldn't be that unhappy to see him given one more chance to find form (although still feel Farrell at 12 is a waste of caps)

All agreed, but EJ clearly has some doubts over Kvesic. Wonder if his dream flankers are Clifford and Underhill either side of a unit like Billy or Hughes?

I haven't seen any of Underhill, but going by reputation that does sound like a pretty good balance.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

They're all professional players, they don't need someone to hold their hands.
Haskell shouldn't be getting more caps just because he HAS more caps than the others.

I completely agree, but Haskell should play because he was very good last weekend. Stick him at 6, get a real 7 in, Itoje on the bench and we're looking good.

Can't see Eddie making that many changes TBH.

Reckon it could be

1) Marler
2) Hartley
3) Cole
4) Launchbury
5) Kruis
6) Clifford
7) Haskell (I would pick Kevsic)
8) Vunipola
9) Youngs
10) Ford (Farrell for me)
11) Watson
12) Farrell (Devoto)
13) JJ
14) Nowell
15) Brown

16) George
17) Vunipola
18) Hills
19) Itojie
20) Beaumont
21) Care
22) Goode (Ford)
23) Daly

I still think get Daly and Devoto in despite their lack of experience. They'll run up a big score against the Italians and it will be a great opportunity to see them in this side and the shape we will be playing with when Slade returns.

Lots of people saying bench Ford he's out of form and fair enough I see that.

But we're playing Italy next and looking to rack up a score (nice to admit it for a change). So what's more likely racking up a score with an in-form Farrell or out-of-form Ford, remember we're not really looking at defensive prowess in this game we should be able to manage Italy well enough on that front regardless of who plays at 10. More importantly isn't this exactly the kind of try to fill your boots game that Ford may have the chance to find some form in. It'll probably be the least pressured game he's played in for months and with Bath's position in the table and England's next three games the least pressured one he's likely to play for some time.

Just saying I'd start with Ford it's the Ireland and Wales games we don't want him to go searching for his form in when Farrell is deemed not good enough with 20 mins on the clock and more than one try needed.

Maybe give Farrell the game at 10, Devoto at 12, and see how that goes, if Daly plays well I can see EJ playing Farrell 10, Daly 12 and JJ 13, although I don't agree with it, and then Devoto/Goode off the bench. Right now we don't need or really want Ford playing for us sadly.

 

[JJFlash]

Some of you are thinking that England will "rack up" a big score against Italy.
It might not be as easy as we think, as last Saturday the Italians played some of the best rugby I've ever seen them play.
OK, a win is to be expected, and justifiably so, but if England go into this match thinking it's done and dusted, they could be in for a surprise.

 

[ncurd]

Some of you are thinking that England will "rack up" a big score against Italy.
It might not be as easy as we think, as last Saturday the Italians played some of the best rugby I've ever seen them play.
OK, a win is to be expected, and justifiably so, but if England go into this match thinking it's done and dusted, they could be in for a surprise.

Eddie Jones has said that's what we intend to do so I think it's fair for us to talk about the game in that context even if it doesn't happen.

Plus this is the worst French side in my living memory.