Heineken Cup talks "have now ended"

[Tony Manx]

It works by 1) having developed the vast majority of the squad themselves 2) having a cheap academy U23 side as second choice depth and 3) having sold off virtually every well known overseas player and several expensive backs for cheap Tier 2, journeymen club players or simply new rising talents.

Not sure that it has been said before but the salary cap in France for the next THREE seasons is 10 million euro (approx £8,5 million) per season - http://www.sports.fr/rugby/top-14/scans/lnr-le-salary-cap-fixe-a-10-millions-d-euros-663101/

and, as I uderstand it, from 2013/14, 60% of Top 14 squads must come from French training clubs or centres - http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/03/23/no-doubt-frances-top-14-is-killing-french-rugby/

 

[Prestwick]

Apparently the RFU and Ian Richie are now acting as an unofficial and impartial back channel between the Celtic unions and PRL/LNR. Anybody got a link to a story about this?

The RFU. Acting maturely. And sensibly. And not dead centre in yet another controversy?!

Bugger me are those pigs flying outside my window?!

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24452479

 

[St George]

The EUROPEAN CUP is about competition between the best club/provincial teams in EACH COUNTRY in Europe, not just the best teams overall.

Exactly....and there lies the problem.

The current setup means that the representative sides of the Rabo12 nations only get to play each other, and so therefore cannot be classed as "the best club/provincial teams in EACH COUNTRY " when there is no competition or meritocracy to being able to compete in the Rabo12 league. And the fact that certain teams then finish bottom and STILL qualify for the HC makes the whole process even more absurd.

An example of competition and gaining reward thru merit is the Exeter Chiefs, who were in the 2nd tier of English rugby a few years ago, and are now playing in Europes top club competition. Under the systems that the Rabo12 operate, they would not have that chance.

 

[coolbawn]

Here's a story for you re progress on compromise, Prestwick.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rug...pro12-sides-ready-to-compromise-29657427.html

 

[coolbawn]

Hello St George. I can understand and agree with "certain teams then finish bottom and STILL qualify for the HC makes the whole process even more absurd".

Not sure I even understand "The current setup means that the representative sides of the Rabo12 nations only get to play each other". That's what leagues do. By your logic, the French and Emglish clubs wouldn't qualify for Europe because they only play each other in their leagues. The Irish provinces all play each other in the Rabo and they play the Welsh, Scottish and Italian clubs. What more do you want ?!

You say "there is no competition or meritocracy to being able to compete in the Rabo12 league". I suspect you don't watch the Rabo matches. They are played with great intensity. All the matches between clubs from the same nation are local derbies with plenty of grudges based on history (other than the Italians) which is a great deal longer than most rivalries in the PRL. All the matches between clubs of different nations have grudges based on nationalism / patriotism. The matches between Italian clubs and other clubs have been fired up by the desire not to lose to an Italian club or to bring down an established club. As in the EPL, most of the players picked have to play well to be picked next time. Maybe one or two matches at the end of the season happen to be between two clubs which won't get into the playoffs, don't have to worry about qualifying for the HC and don't have to worry about relegation but the odds on both teams being in that position are small and anyway, that's a great opportunity to play a couple of young shavers who the knowlegeable fans want to see.

If you had your way, Scarlets wouldn't have dared try out Jordan Williams, U20 Welsh star, earlier this season, therefore wouldn't have dared play him against Quins and wouldn't have seen him win the match with a star turn. You'd prefer Scarlets to recruit a so-so Islander aged 28 and risk going backrupt.

And don't try to convince us that English teams always have to play their HC starting 15. We are well aware that various clubs at the bottom of the EPL give other clubs the same chance to rest their players as the stronger Rabo teams have.

The Chiefs story is heart-warming (and deserves massive respect). A reason why they have flourished is because the RFU hand out English HC money to all English clubs equally, I believe - probably much to the chagrin of Sarries etc. That social democracy (or whatever) makes the EPL more competitive. So why not allow a similar approach in Europe ? The Rabo countries have taken that approach with the Italians and Treviso are improving visibly in the Rabo and HC. Even if the Rabo franchise approach wouldn't have allowed a new club in, it encourages the Italians, Connacht, Edinburgh, Dragons and any other club who have a dodgy run in future to improve/recover and compete again eg Edinburgh beating Munster, Connacht beating Quins and giving Sarries a fright. Who in Raboland complains about the franchise system ? The Irish don't clamour for another club. Too early for the Italians. Some borders fans might like one but that didn't work. The Welsh don't like their regions but do they actually want relegation and promotion ?

Different geography and demographics requires different solutions. Worry about your own setup. If you feel inferior to Rabo clubs, see how you can imrpove your situation (eg use half of your fixtures to qualify for the HC) rather than trying to impose your approach on others. It seems that the Rabo clubs can't get it right in some people's eyes - either they are too strong and therefore are cheating or they are too weak and therefore are cheating. The truth is that all Rabo clubs will have to fight like mad to get out of their pools; some will; some won't; same with the EPL clubs. Get over it and enjoy the good bits about all the clubs.

 

[psychic duck]

Hello St George. I can understand and agree with "certain teams then finish bottom and STILL qualify for the HC makes the whole process even more absurd".

Not sure I even understand "The current setup means that the representative sides of the Rabo12 nations only get to play each other". That's what leagues do. By your logic, the French and Emglish clubs wouldn't qualify for Europe because they only play each other in their leagues. The Irish provinces all play each other in the Rabo and they play the Welsh, Scottish and Italian clubs. What more do you want ?!

You say "there is no competition or meritocracy to being able to compete in the Rabo12 league". I suspect you don't watch the Rabo matches. They are played with great intensity. All the matches between clubs from the same nation are local derbies with plenty of grudges based on history (other than the Italians) which is a great deal longer than most rivalries in the PRL. All the matches between clubs of different nations have grudges based on nationalism / patriotism. The matches between Italian clubs and other clubs have been fired up by the desire not to lose to an Italian club or to bring down an established club. As in the EPL, most of the players picked have to play well to be picked next time. Maybe one or two matches at the end of the season happen to be between two clubs which won't get into the playoffs, don't have to worry about qualifying for the HC and don't have to worry about relegation but the odds on both teams being in that position are small and anyway, that's a great opportunity to play a couple of young shavers who the knowlegeable fans want to see.

If you had your way, Scarlets wouldn't have dared try out Jordan Williams, U20 Welsh star, earlier this season, therefore wouldn't have dared play him against Quins and wouldn't have seen him win the match with a star turn. You'd prefer Scarlets to recruit a so-so Islander aged 28 and risk going backrupt.

And don't try to convince us that English teams always have to play their HC starting 15. We are well aware that various clubs at the bottom of the EPL give other clubs the same chance to rest their players as the stronger Rabo teams have.

The Chiefs story is heart-warming (and deserves massive respect). A reason why they have flourished is because the RFU hand out English HC money to all English clubs equally, I believe - probably much to the chagrin of Sarries etc. That social democracy (or whatever) makes the EPL more competitive. So why not allow a similar approach in Europe ? The Rabo countries have taken that approach with the Italians and Treviso are improving visibly in the Rabo and HC. Even if the Rabo franchise approach wouldn't have allowed a new club in, it encourages the Italians, Connacht, Edinburgh, Dragons and any other club who have a dodgy run in future to improve/recover and compete again eg Edinburgh beating Munster, Connacht beating Quins and giving Sarries a fright. Who in Raboland complains about the franchise system ? The Irish don't clamour for another club. Too early for the Italians. Some borders fans might like one but that didn't work. The Welsh don't like their regions but do they actually want relegation and promotion ?

Different geography and demographics requires different solutions. Worry about your own setup. If you feel inferior to Rabo clubs, see how you can imrpove your situation (eg use half of your fixtures to qualify for the HC) rather than trying to impose your approach on others. It seems that the Rabo clubs can't get it right in some people's eyes - either they are too strong and therefore are cheating or they are too weak and therefore are cheating. The truth is that all Rabo clubs will have to fight like mad to get out of their pools; some will; some won't; same with the EPL clubs. Get over it and enjoy the good bits about all the clubs.

This is BS Western Mail influenced talk. In fact the entire post is pretty deluded.

 

[St George]

Hello St George. I can understand and agree with "certain teams then finish bottom and STILL qualify for the HC makes the whole process even more absurd".

Not sure I even understand "The current setup means that the representative sides of the Rabo12 nations only get to play each other". That's what leagues do. By your logic, the French and Emglish clubs wouldn't qualify for Europe because they only play each other in their leagues. The Irish provinces all play each other in the Rabo and they play the Welsh, Scottish and Italian clubs. What more do you want ?!

What i have said is quite straightforward when put into context with what Smartcooky posted about the "best club/provincial teams in EACH COUNTRY" being in the HC. IMO the "best clubs" etc, should be those that have acheived that status via fair competition and merit. The Rabo 12 are teams that do not compete to be in the Rabo12, their places are guaranteed unless their Union deems otherwise, and so cannot be regarded as the best on merit for their country. For these so called best of their nation to be given guaranteed places in the HC just compounds the issue. And the fact the Rabo12 seem to be wanting to compromise on that criteria says it all.

You say "there is no competition or meritocracy to being able to compete in the Rabo12 league". I suspect you don't watch the Rabo matches. They are played with great intensity. All the matches between clubs from the same nation are local derbies with plenty of grudges based on history (other than the Italians) which is a great deal longer than most rivalries in the PRL.

Hopefully what i post above explains that my comment has nothing to do with the actual games in the Rabo12, but the fact that they cannot be regarded as "the best of their country" unless there is some sort of competition which gives them that status. At the moment afaik, there isnt.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to what i posted so i'll leave that for others to comment. The Chiefs story is relevant as they are where they are by competing and being the best in the 2nd tier, and then competing and being one of the best in the PRL and finishing in one of the required top 6 places.

 

[St George]

People sometimes like to compare football with rugby. Well the Rabo12 and EPL could be compared as they are both leagues with more than one nation competing in it. Another comparison would be if the two Welsh sides, Cardiff & Swansea, were given automatic places in the Champions League as the best of their nation. The fact that they are where they are on merit is what makes them good sides, and with further investment, they will compete for the top places and also enter the Champions League on merit. That is what healthy competition should be about.

 

[coolbawn]

[This is BS Western Mail influenced talk. In fact the entire post is pretty deluded.]
Ha ! I may well be deluded but have never read the Western Mail. Just happen to like the arrangements roughly as they are but happy for some changes if necessary.

 

[Packman]

This is where the RFU have been the stand out players in this whole saga. They've risen above the whole drama and walked an extremely fine line in order to help arbitrate this without offending the clubs or the unions.

As an arbitraitor the RFU spectacularly failed to prevent a European meltdown. Personally I think the RFU have sat on the fence and that has encouraged the Wreckers to ruin the best club competition in the world.

Its looking like Italy are going to cut adrift and left to sink while Scotland's elite player pool is slashed by approx 40% overnight (personally I don't think the Edinburgh players will stay at the club, and that opens another can of worms for everyone no matter what national team you support. The FFR have said they will not recognise a Anglo-French competition. What have the RFU done? Left the door open... You can call that rising above the whole drama. I call it pouring petrol on a smouldering fire.

Roll on the erc meeting at the end of October. Let's see if LNR and PRL make good on their promise of not attending. We may see a few chess peices moved in the aftermath of the meeting. If we don't then I'll take that as proof that the Welsh and Irish have followed Scotland's lead and bottled it and the death knell for italian rugby has been struck.

Oh and even after round One I think Edinburgh, Scarlets and Gloucester's wins this weekend prove that the whole qualification argument is deeply flawed. But then again doesn't it get shot down in every eurocup? Connaught, Treviso, Edinburgh, Scarletts, all have giant killing traditions in this competition.

If the IRB, unions, individual clubs, players and us fans let LNR and PRL set up a non inclusive european competition then we will deserve what we get, and we're talking ramifications for everyone, no matter which hemisphere you live in. It will affect you.

 

[smartcooky]

What i have said is quite straightforward when put into context with what Smartcooky posted about the "best club/provincial teams in EACH COUNTRY" being in the HC. IMO the "best clubs" etc, should be those that have acheived that status via fair competition and merit. The Rabo 12 are teams that do not compete to be in the Rabo12, their places are guaranteed unless their Union deems otherwise, and so cannot be regarded as the best on merit for their country. For these so called best of their nation to be given guaranteed places in the HC just compounds the issue. And the fact the Rabo12 seem to be wanting to compromise on that criteria says it all.



Hopefully what i post above explains that my comment has nothing to do with the actual games in the Rabo12, but the fact that they cannot be regarded as "the best of their country" unless there is some sort of competition which gives them that status. At the moment afaik, there isnt.

The rest of your post is irrelevant to what i posted so i'll leave that for others to comment. The Chiefs story is relevant as they are where they are by competing and being the best in the 2nd tier, and then competing and being one of the best in the PRL and finishing in one of the required top 6 places.

Even if there was relegation in Pro 12, if you look at the record since 2005 when it went to its current format as regards the Welsh regions, Connacht is the only Irish team that would have been relegatyed (2008, 2009 & 2010). Since 2011 it has always been Italian teams on the bottom - Aironi (2011 & 2012) and Zebre, who are just Aironi in another form, in 2013.

But the point here is that there ARE only four Irish Teams, because there are only four Irish provinces, there ARE only four Welsh teams because there are four Welsh regions. By default, they are the best teams in those countries. If an Irish or Welsh team finished bottom of the Pro 12, and was relegated, who would be the team to replace them when there isn't one. There is no tier below the Pro 12 from which to promote a team. In fact it is meritorious indeed that teams like Leinster and Munster, who have performed well and won the HC on several occasions, have never been near the bottom despite that fact that they supposedly rest players because there is not relegation.

The "fight for relegation story" being put up by the PRL is a crock of shiite. I would argue that if the Pro 12 teams didn't rest players regularly, then tables will still end up looking much the same. In the last eight years, Leinster have finished 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st & 2nd; while Munster have finished 4th, 4th, 6th, 3rd, 1st, 4th, 3rd, & 6th. These are all qualifying position despite supposedly playing weakened teams for some matches.


ETA: Oh, and people who think that PRL and LNR teams don't rest players for matches they think they can win with a weakened team, are living on Planet Fantasy. ALL teams rest players, and if they don't, then injury will do the job for them.

 

[McTallshort]

I agree with most of that, Prestwick. Ironically, you might have fallen for the PRL media strategy you mention, when you state that ERC and the Celtic unions have sat around twiddling their thumbs. How do we know unless we were at all those meetings ? Only the "rampaging" PRL talk about those meetings. So we don't know for sure.

The other irony is that McClafferty was the ERC Commercial Chairman, so if ERC didn't do anything about sorting out the commercial things he moans about (TV deal and internal revenue share), either he should blame himself or he never intended that ERC should sort it out.

Mark Souster at The Times seems to have good Celtic contacts as he seemed to specialize in Celtic rugby matters before becoming their chief rugby correspondent. In today's Times he suggests that Ian Ritchie et al are making progress behind the scenes - always the most likely scenario.

So if we dont know how do you know its only media strategy?

 

[psychic duck]

Even if there was relegation in Pro 12, if you look at the record since 2005 when it went to its current format as regards the Welsh regions, Connacht is the only Irish team that would have been relegatyed (2008, 2009 & 2010). Since 2011 it has always been Italian teams on the bottom - Aironi (2011 & 2012) and Zebre, who are just Aironi in another form, in 2013.

But the point here is that there ARE only four Irish Teams, because there are only four Irish provinces, there ARE only four Welsh teams because there are four Welsh regions. By default, they are the best teams in those countries. If an Irish or Welsh team finished bottom of the Pro 12, and was relegated, who would be the team to replace them when there isn't one. There is no tier below the Pro 12 from which to promote a team. In fact it is meritorious indeed that teams like Leinster and Munster, who have performed well and won the HC on several occasions, have never been near the bottom despite that fact that they supposedly rest players because there is not relegation.

The "fight for relegation story" being put up by the PRL is a crock of shiite. I would argue that if the Pro 12 teams didn't rest players regularly, then tables will still end up looking much the same. In the last eight years, Leinster have finished 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 1st, 1st & 2nd; while Munster have finished 4th, 4th, 6th, 3rd, 1st, 4th, 3rd, & 6th. These are all qualifying position despite supposedly playing weakened teams for some matches.

Actually this statement is what's a crock of shiite.

If Leinster had access to their Heineken Cup team all season in the Schmidt years then they would have won the league by a considerably larger and more dominant margin with defeats to Connacht out the window. Treviso would also probably be a top 6 side without the FIR handicapping them in the international periods.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that the gap between the international providers and the non international providers would grow considerably. Dragons surprisingly good record against the Ospreys is largely down to the strange amount of times that the latter has been under strength. When the Dragons won at the Liberty in 2010 the Ospreys had gems like Gareth Owen, Jamie Nutbrown, Sonny Parker, Dai Flanagan and Tom Smith all in the starting lineup. The Ospreys may still always finish ahead end of season as they produce decent players (unlike the Dragons) but ambush type matches as such would be eradicated and the gap widened.

It is palpable that resting players changes the league. Scarlets and Glasgow have both in recent times got league places beyond their actual ability. Edinburgh got 2nd in the league and Dragons got 7th in 2010 I think as well. In both cases down to the teams they played.

That so many games are watered down leads to the need to take these positions by a pinch of salt, teams are judged on European performance. Glasgow are undefeated in the Pro12 yet got a tonking with 50 points put on them in Toulon, would the same happen to 5th place Leinster with only 2 wins? Certainly not. In fact I just checked their team that lost to Glasgow, only half of it started the Heineken Cup game, where a team that could have certainly beaten Glasgow was picked.

 

[coolbawn]

Hello Tallshorts.
I don't know, so I say "might" and "So we don't know for sure.".
I find it hard to understand the RFU because the were old farts but it seems that Ritchie may be different.

 

[McTallshort]

Its easy to understand the RFU,they dont want the full blown war with the clubs that people on here are so desperate for because they are not stupid and realize forcing the clubs into something they dont want to be in could seriously damage pro rugby in England.

 

[Peat]

Glasgow are probably one of the biggest providers of internationals in the league. Bizarre to say that internationals being held back has allowed them to take up a league place above their actual ability. Edinburgh reaching 2nd had more to do with Andy Robinson than other teams resting internationals if memory serves.

The question has to be "Why would Leinster stop resting players"? As smartcooky shows, they don't have to stop doing that to keep making Pro12 playoffs and European qualification. It keeps their players fresh for the end of the season when the important games happen, giving them an advantage when it matters. Plus, of course, its not their call. Its the IRFU's, and I don't see why they're going to change the formula as long as it works.

I suppose the answer is that if everyone's going harder to get qualification, and their position comes under threat, they'll change to follow. That's a bit of an if though. But yeah, even if they do go for it, they'll still end up around the top. I can't see saying they'd end up by even more points substantially challenges smartcooky's point.

Tbh, my guess, is that as the Irish provinces are currently far ahead of the pack, the big three there will dominate the league... which doesn't really entail a lot of change.

 

[psychic duck]

Glasgow are probably one of the biggest providers of internationals in the league. Bizarre to say that internationals being held back has allowed them to take up a league place above their actual ability. Edinburgh reaching 2nd had more to do with Andy Robinson than other teams resting internationals if memory serves.

The question has to be "Why would Leinster stop resting players"? As smartcooky shows, they don't have to stop doing that to keep making Pro12 playoffs and European qualification. It keeps their players fresh for the end of the season when the important games happen, giving them an advantage when it matters. Plus, of course, its not their call. Its the IRFU's, and I don't see why they're going to change the formula as long as it works.

I suppose the answer is that if everyone's going harder to get qualification, and their position comes under threat, they'll change to follow. That's a bit of an if though. But yeah, even if they do go for it, they'll still end up around the top. I can't see saying they'd end up by even more points substantially challenges smartcooky's point.

Tbh, my guess, is that as the Irish provinces are currently far ahead of the pack, the big three there will dominate the league... which doesn't really entail a lot of change.

Actually Glasgow play more emphasis on the regular league and have a better team more often, it was the same when Edinburgh finished 2nd, they treat the league with more importance than other teams who will gladly sacrifice games for H Cup success and lose players more often. The WRU and FIR takes away even fringe players like Tavis Knoyle or Aaron Jarvis for squad training, the IRFU has the player welfare thing. The SRU always allows them to have fringe members available. Also I never said specifically "internationals being held back" has allowed them to do that. It actually read that if teams had their full options available all season they wouldn't be flying quite so high. In a Heineken Cup pool of Leinster, Ulster, Ospreys and Glasgow, they certainly wouldn't top it.

And smartcooky's point was that tables would end up looking much the same if the teams didn't rest players which is clearly not true. The chasm between the providers and non international providers would obviously grow and the elite would lead the league in a much more dominant fashion and there would be no flukes like there can be now. The league would change in dynamic completely.

Also as you yourself said, it's an obvious point that Leinster wouldn't be able to get away so easily if the opposition (say Munster for example) were full strength and gunning for a playoff place. Which is exactly why the league needs to have full teams more often and more riding on the matches to make it a better product.

 

[coolbawn]

This is an entertaining thread but it's quite easy (for me at least) to forget what we are arguing about / discussing. It's sometimes useful to remind myself what the point of rugby admin should be before I can say that structure x is better than structure y. To me, off the top of my head, the objectives are:
1. to get as many people as possible playing rugby and enjoying playing it
2. to get as many people as possible watching rugby and enjoying watching it.

Rugby being a sport in which mismatches are more likely to make dull games for players and spectators, I don't really care if there are intended or unintended mechanisms which handicap the best teams and give the less strong teams more of a chance.

I have favourite teams but I'd give up watching them if I *knew* they were going to win a match against every pretty good team or if I *knew* they were going to get 5 points against every weaker team.

So I personally don't care if:
- weaker clubs get more of the dosh than their current ability might "deserve"
- stronger clubs lose more players to internationals and rest
- stronger clubs feel they have to play squad players slightly more often than their current merit deserves to keep them interested in staying with that club until they mature.

I don't expect everyone to agree with the above so I do expect people to have different views on structures:
- some people are more fanatical than others
- some people care more about their club than their country and vice versa.

But it's a shame when some fans and clubs appear endlessly to seek to change the structures until they find a mechanism whereby their team is likely to win the HC - irrespective of the impact on the general good of the game.

Obviously there are self-seekers in any organisation, but I do think it's more likely that the unions will have the above objectives in mind when they seek changes. I have little faith in club owners having the same objectives in mind. In the same way, it's more comfortable to send your kids to state schools or schools owned by charitable trusts; if you send them to privately-owned schools, there's always a ****le that things you don't agree with are being done to line the owners' pockets - even if the owners are moderate capitalists. Some of these EPL clubs are really well run by people whose hearts seem to be in the right place. Others appear to be self-seeking. They also appear to have hired a CEO who has been told to look only short-term and ignore the general good.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That so many games are watered down leads to the need to take these positions by a pinch of salt, teams are judged on European performance. Glasgow are undefeated in the Pro12 yet got a tonking with 50 points put on them in Toulon, would the same happen to 5th place Leinster with only 2 wins? Certainly not. In fact I just checked their team that lost to Glasgow, only half of it started the Heineken Cup game, where a team that could have certainly beaten Glasgow was picked.

Just on this point here, Leinster always start slower than anyone else in the league. It has been part of our season for a few years now. (Joe Schmidt got awful abuse in 2010 due to a slow start) I'm not saying your point is invalid but Leinster are a bad example, compare us to Munster this year, 2nd after 5 and Ulster last year, top after 5 and they have similar restrictions to Leinster. Leinster will, as they always do, shoot up the table between now and Christmas.