I have then compared Georgia to countries who I logically think can achieve world power status based on the current sports development structures in those countries. I have also compared Georgia to other tier 2 countries with similar glass ceilings.
USA has never been a top nation in a sport which they don't own, or isn't an Olympic sport.
They are undoubtedly improving at rugby and evidence is their Junior team this year, but their senior team has a fair amount of expats, if they had such a good development structure they wouldn't need them.
I think you are intentionally not understanding my posts and are simply looking for a reason to be angry.
And unfortunately, given the attitude in your post, I know feel I must point out your errors.
Nope, not at all. Sorry you interpreted it that way.
I'm glad you find people of a suitable size and you have an altruistic billionaire. That being said, relying on an altruistic billionaire to fund the program proves my previous points on Georgia's financial future.
Georgia isn't reliant. And especially wouldn't be if they got more opportunities and benefited from bigger TV deals of getting into bigger tournaments.
You intentionally ignored my point again. USA and Russia do not have glass ceilings because they control their future. They have no hindering factors like other countries. You also purposely misread the Russia comment. Russia development structure (meaning Olympics, Soccer and Hockey) is very good. As well, I would to point out that there is 13 other positions on a rugby field aside from Prop.
You are ignoring the USA and Russia's hindering factors. Rugby is not popular there. They have a glass ceiling, because they will never be a top sport in the nations. Certainly not within the next 40 years.
I highlight prop as it is a position you can't just put a big guy in and expect to do well. They have to master the technique and the skill of it, in modern day rugby if you don't have at least a passable scrum you will struggle. It basically single handedly cost Canada their fixture with Italy.
World class prop who will always have to scrummage every time in the game > World class winger who doesn't get the ball as the scrum can't win their own ball.
USA would not even attempt to poach NFL. Pointless exercise. However, there are plenty of high calibre athletes that do not make the NFL or CFL every year. If the USA was smart (and they are) an intelligent way to recruit high end athletes is to have rugby programs throughout school and college. Use a similar strategy that is used for basketball and Football.
As TRF_Nickdnz points out, rugby does not benefit from NFL. The amount of potential skilled players they lose from it would be far greater than players they gain, most NFL rejects would probably just go to an ordinary job anyway.
Besides there is no guarantee they would be a top rugby player anyway. For every Dan Lyle you got, there would be a Tom James. A very quick player with an athletics background, but with no idea of how to play rugby.
Your point about having access to first choice talent directly relates to population size. Smaller population with small GDP means smaller revenue = weaker program = less access to top class players.
Georgia's program sends players out to France to play a higher level of rugby (like Argentina used to develop players), so in effect the players go through the same system as the French players do. Players like Tamaz Mchelidze, Merab Sharikadze have both been sent to Western Europe as teenagers.
As previously pointed out, niche sports in large multisport countries do not need to become major sports for it the have success. Perfect example is USA with Hockey. Relatively niche sport (in American terms) yet USA is one of the top teams in the world (2 Olympics finals in last 3 Olympics.)
Do you have any examples which aren't Olympic sports?
Soccer (football) is the nearest they've got to a good team in a sport which the US doesn't own, or isn't an Olympic sport.
Jamaica athletics is a bad example. They are more comparable to NZ because of the amount of money in the program and Usain Bolt (Jamaica's brand if you want to call him that.)
Exactly. You say that now, but where were they earlier in the 1980's and 1990's?
They haven't always had that money in their system, they have got it now as they got a world class generation, but they didn't before.
If Georgia or any other nation got a golden generation which led it to rise, then the money and sponsorship would come with the success. If any country became a top nation in a sport they would get more money than being lower ranked, that is obvious, and it would apply to Georgia too.
As well, USA does not care about cricket because there is no money to be made in cricket in USA. It's a boring, unattractive sport. Rugby however is a entertaining, rough sport with plenty to offer to both hardcore and casual fans. Plus, with the inclusion of the Olympics, the sport should gain more exposure.
That's just your opinion.
Georgia is not the problem, its crazy neighbours are. Good luck finding foreign investors for a country stuck between a bunch of countries that the UN doesn't recognise. Hence, the low GDP.
Pakistan are one of the craziest countries there are and it borders a war torn Afghanistan, yet they themselves can excel in cricket. By your logic, Russia couldn't excel as it borders a crazy country in Belarus next to it. Ethiopia and Kenya both excel at Athletics and they are bordering the worst country in the world in Somalia.
Yes NZ is consistently the best. They have the most money. England and France are both world class programs and also happen to have a lot of money. Thank you for proving my point.
New Zealand don't have the most money. If they did, then they wouldn't lose players to the Northern Hemisphere, and Sonny Bill Williams would still be with them.
Your point makes no sense. It took a long time for Argentina to become as good as they are now. Hate to remind you, rich country, good program. Argentina has a good program that has built itself up by increasing it revenue stream. Very popular in Argentina and a very easy sell to a country with useful infrastructure. Easy to sell advertising and will only continue higher with the new Rugby Championship.
What makes you think Argentina has a good program?
They were lucky by their timing. They would have got left behind post professionalism (much like Canada, Romania both did), but were lucky to have a good generation that beat Ireland in the 1999 World Cup, and after that there was an explosion in Argentines getting pro contracts in France and to a lesser extent England.
This meant that Argentine players could continue to play and train professionally, and the amount of Argentines going there has continued ever since.
If all Argentina's players had stayed in the Argentine amateur system, they would have never been a force in professional rugby and would have struggled. You talk of their program, but their program hasn't always been that good, until recent strides to add a small amount of professionalism with the best Argentine based players. An example of how their own system has been poor is their lack of a good domestic league which is amateur, you make it seem like they have been pouring money into their system for years. They now have with IRB funding had to get their act together domestically, but before very recent developments, the best Argentines would most of time have to travel to France or England aged 20 and play professionally to aid their career.
They could still get around the fact their own domestic system was a poor relation to other Tier 1 nations by exporting their players to play professionally elsewhere. You see this in football too, dozens of the top South American, Eastern European and African footballers go to play a better standard in Western Europe, meaning they get benefits from the richer nations such as England, France etc.
Georgia has essentially done the same thing, they send most of the players to play in France and play a higher standard, and it's worked. This is actually exactly what Argentina did as well.
I'm sorry you don't like Kevin Tkachuk. He had a long successful career and was only on that tour because Canada sent a relatively inexperienced team. This was supposed to his retirement tour (from what i heard) and he was meant to provide an element of calm to the team. If he was so bad why was he one of Glasgows top players for a few years?
He was hardly one of Glasgow's "top players" to be honest, he was an honest squad player at best, and couldn't hold his own against the top international scrums. I remember watching a Wales vs Canada match from a few years ago and he was struggling. Never remember him being particularly special at club level either, he was more of a squad reserve.
If you prefer I'll use Miles craigwell. Perfect example of what's to come. Never played rugby before 2010. Cut by Miami Dolphins. This guy is a safety, not even a running back. Give him a bit more time and watch out.
We'll see. Looks like he just plays Sevens from that video.
Good for Georgia having more professionals but why is their backline so anemic? As well, Dan Carter is a world class, elite level athlete and is more valuable than anyone you mentioned.
Having the base of the pack is most important, then build on the backs later. Prop, number 8 and fly half are the most important positions.
You mention Dan Carter, but he may not have been as good had he played behind a dreadful pack, and also may not have been as good had he not had quality players at the Crusaders to learn from.
Stop calling players athletes as well, Dan Carter is a world class rugby player.
Georgia with a solid pack, can give whoever the next young fly half is more chance to develop and more chances to try risks behind a solid base. Also with more professionals in France, the players can learn alongside better players. For example Vito Kolelishvili the Georgian back rower who has been part of the Clermont academy for a few years and got a full contract this season.
USA has 1 world class rugby player (Ngwenya.) Georgia 1 (Gorgodze), Romania 0, Russia 0.
Ngwenya is another player who is simply fast but lacks other skills. True he has got some special tries. But he isn't a world class rugby player, he's just fast. He also wasn't really that effective in the RWC for USA anyway as he hardly got the ball, he's the kind of player who's good for the good teams who can provide space and opportunities for him, but won't make opportunities for himself and make bad teams good. USA's best player is Todd Clever, he's a lot more important than Ngwenya.
How many elite level athletes has Georgia/Romania produced? None. USA/Russia? Ridiculous amount.
Of course USA and Russia have more sport stars, but they have them in sports they like such as NBA or NFL either that or in Olympic sports.
Who has produced more top level rugby players?
By your logic, the USA could be the best at cricket because they have Tiger Woods. It's irrelevant.
Georgia/Romania are poor performing countries in athletics. Georgia's only medals were in judo/wrestling. Romania had 9 medals (2 gold, 5 silver, 2 bronze) in shooting, gymnastics, weightlifting, judo.
That is not rugby. Shane Horgan wouldn't be a top sprinter, neither could you just pluck an Olympic sprinter an expect them to become the best winger.
Georgia have more high performing rugby players in the Top 14, than USA or Russia. I would say that is more relevant.
Besides having good wrestlers would be more compatible with rugby than a good 400 metre runner anyway to be honest.
Canada had 18 medals (1 gold, 5 silver,12 bronze) in a variety of sports. Summer olympics also get half the funding winter olympics get (where Canada was 26 medals 14 gold, 7 silver, 5 bronze.) Romania and Georgia had 0 each. USA and Russia finished much higher than Canada in both events.
Nobody cares about the Winter Olympics outside the snowy countries. Seriously in the UK where I live, nobody cares that we are crap at the Winter Olympics. I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same in other countries too.
I think you might have a prejudice against Russia for some reason.
Nope. Just presenting facts to people who probably haven't seen the side play, have little knowledge of rugby there, and are over hyping them.
All of the following are facts.
- They senior team lost 46-0 to Georgia, and 25-0 to Romania this year.
- They finished 4th in the ENC this year, if they finish that low again they are eliminated from RWC 2015.
- Their U18 team lost 34-14 to Spain this year
- Their scrum is the joke of the ENC
- They failed to qualify for the IRB Junior World Trophy
- Their matches aren't shown on TV
- Their national team matches are played in front of empty stadiums
No chance that USA rugby well get any benefit from the NFL dude. For every Miles Craigwell that rugby gets, it loses a Haloti Ngata...
They also lost Hayden Smith, their top lineout lock and professional with Saracens, to be just in the practice squad of the NY Jets.
