What should be the H Cup qualification system?

[Gavin]

OK.

I thought the Heineken Cup was the European Rugby Championship, the symbol of European Club Rugby superiority, fought out between the best 24 club teams from all the nations in Europe.

The winner of the Challenge Cup may not be a top 24 team, but they have automatic entry, so maybe I was wrong about that.

Generally the winner of the Challenge Cup played in that year's Heineken Cup but failed to get through the group stages. The semi-finals this year contain Stade Francais, Toulon, Brive and Biarritz (Biarritz being the only team to also play in the Heineken Cup). If we look at the quarter-finals (Stade Francais, Toulon, Brive, Biarritz, Wasps, Exeter, Scarlets and Harlequins) three of those teams played in the Heineken Cup this year.

 

[Amiga500]

I imagine you'll be pleased as punch in 2 years time when he HEC becomes the exclusive plaything of the Purgatory teams, after the French and English sides f-off and play with the South Africans.

Such gibberish.


The English teams already f**ked off in 1998-99, but came back a year later.


The HEC isn't going anywhere - regardless of how many sensational soundbites are thrown around.

 

[Amiga500]

try doing your research before gobbing off. The rep of the PRL and Top14 pretty much said to the ERC stop the skewer ot were off.

So name the changes that resulted?

Only the most one eyed felt could possibly believe the competition isn't skewered in the part-time franchises' favour.

Cry me a river.

 

[psychic duck]

just to let people know what teams will qualify for the Heineken Cup next season

If either Ulster or Leinster win the Heineken Cup, then Connacht qualify
If either Clermont or Edinburgh win the Heineken Cup, then Wasps qualify, if Wasps are relegated Bath qualify
If neither Brive or Biarritz win the Amlin Challenge Cup, then Stade Français qualify

Teams confirmed in next year's tournament are

France: Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Montpellier, Castres, Racing-Métro
England: Harlequins, Leicester, Saracens, Northampton, Exeter, Sale
Wales: Ospreys, Scarlets, Cardiff Blues
Scotland: Glasgow, Edinburgh
Ireland: Leinster, Munster, Ulster
Italy: Treviso, TBC

Other teams to be decided from: Brive, Biarritz, Stade Français, Wasps, Bath or Connacht

 

[TRF_Cymro]

From the ERC Media:

QUALIFICATION PROCESS FOR THE 2012/13 HEINEKEN CUP

With fans from over 100 countries watching this weekend's action from Europe's premier club rugby tournament on television, the games willl be even more intensely monitored by supporters in North London and the west of Ireland as the results of the Heineken Cup semi-finals in Dublin and Bordeaux could see a coveted place in next season's Heineken Cup going to either London Wasps or Connacht Rugby.

While Ulster Rugby, Edinburgh Rugby, ASM Clermont Auvergne and Leinster Rugby, as well as the four Amlin Challenge Cup semi-finalists, are focused on European glory, the outcome of both tournaments will have an impact on qualification for next season's Heineken Cup.

If Ulster Rugby and Leinster Rugby both happen to win their semi-finals this weekend, Connacht Rugby will be guaranteed a place in next season's Heineken Cup.

However, if Edinburgh Rugby and ASM Clermont Auvergne win their semi-final matches, then the 24th​ place in the 2012/13 Heineken Cup will go to London Wasps provided they retain their Aviva Premiership status for next season.

2012/13 HEINEKEN CUP QUALIFICATION SCENARIOS

• If either Ulster Rugby or Leinster Rugby win the Heineken Cup final at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday, 19 May, then Ireland will have four clubs – Connacht Rugby, Leinster Rugby, Munster Rugby and Ulster Rugby – in next season's tournament

• If either Edinburgh Rugby or ASM Clermont Auvergne win the Heineken Cup, then the 24th​ place in the 2012/13 tournament will be allocated to the highest ranked non-French club in the ERC European Rankings which has not qualified through its domestic qualification process. Based on the ERC European Rankings which reward consistent performance over four seasons, London Wasps will secure the 24th​ place provided they retain their Aviva Premiership status.

• France will have seven clubs in next season's tournament. With Toulon, Stade Francais Paris, Biarritz Olympique and Brive through to the Amlin Challenge Cup semi-finals, a French winner of the tournament is assured so securing France an additional seventh place in the 2012/13 Heineken Cup.

* Please note that the ERC European Rankings are finalised after the completion of both the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup tournaments.

HEINEKEN CUP QUALIFICATION

Each of the six competing nations are guaranteed a minimum number of places with the qualification criteria for these places set by the relevant Unions / governing bodies

• England: six places (performance in Aviva Premiership and LV= Cup winner)
• France: six places (performance in the Top 14 Orange)
• Wales: three places (performance in the RaboDirect Pro 12)
• Ireland: three places (performance in the RaboDirect Pro 12)
• Italy: two places
• Scotland: two places

The remaining 23 and 24th​ places are determined by who wins the previous season's Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup. Both tournament winners are guaranteed a place in the 2012/13 Heineken Cup and they can also potentially earn their country an additional place in the tournament.

France and England are each limited to seven clubs in the tournament and if either England or France win both ERC competitions, they cannot exceed seven places, while Italy and Scotland cannot exceed two.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Ah, cheers for clearing that up. Just out of interest, what's the logic behind an English team getting in if Clermont or Edinburgh getting in? Is it something like France can't have any more teams with the Amlin champions and Scotland don't have another team?

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Teams confirmed in next year's tournament are

France: Toulouse, Clermont, Toulon, Montpellier, Castres, Racing-Métro


Other teams to be decided from: Brive, Biarritz, Stade Français, Wasps, Bath or Connacht

Actually, from France only Toulouse and Clermont are officially qualified. For Toulon not to qualify, there would have to be some kind of catastrophe (SF getting a bonus point win over RM92, but for less than 7 points difference, and both teams to win their last games, Toulon to lose both games, Montpellier and Castres to win at least one game). Montpellier and Castres are also pretty much in. Stade français have a realistic option of clinching the sixth spot from RM92, though. And if Brive or Biarritz win the ACC, then Racing won't be playing the HC.

 

[cyRil]

So name the changes that resulted?





Cry me a river.

I like the balls on this guy!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sale aren't completely qualified yet - if Bath get a 5pter vs Tigers and we get nothing vs Quins then they'd go ahead of us on games won or points difference or whatever.

I like the balls on this guy!

You like the balls on any guy.

 

[psychic duck]

Sale aren't completely qualified yet - if Bath get a 5pter vs Tigers and we get nothing vs Quins then they'd go ahead of us on games won or points difference or whatever.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Haha, very true - However I'm taking nothing for granted as it stands

 

[welshglory]

I hope for the sake of Wasps now that Clermont or Edinburgh win, i was already cheering for both of them anyway but Heineken cup rugby next year could very well save them

 

[Tony Manx]

Changes to composition of the H and Amlin Cups

http://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/coupe-d-europe/2011-2012/h-cup-passage-a-20-clubs_sto3250037/story.shtml


Rugby - European Cup
Heineken Cup: France wants a move to 20 clubs

Posted on 27/04/2012 at 15:28, updated on 27/04/2012 at 15:52
NRL wants to negotiate a reform of the two European competitions on the horizon of the 2014-2015 season including a shift to 20 clubs in the Heineken Cup. If the process fails with representatives of other nations, the league could then terminate the agreements in force.

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61

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• • On this topic
  • • All results of the Heineken Cup
    • All results of the European Challenge

European rugby competitions could face a serious facelift. Indeed, representatives of French rugby are busy behind the scenes to reform it. This choice comes at a time when the two meet competitions unprecedented success including 50 million euros in turnover for the ERC and 1.1 million viewers earned during the group stage. The reform would address the current formula and the will of the NRL from 24 to 20 clubs in the Heineken Cup. Which would consequently an overhaul of the European Challenge Cup and a new financial distribution. This proposal would focus on " raising the level of both competitions and especially the European Challenge . "A unanimity requirement ...This reform, however, could not enter into force rapidly since the current format of European Cups is fixed until June 2014. The ERC will indeed within two years to implement new agreements to avoid crisis. And if no action is taken, the current agreements (which are from 2007) will be extended for another year.Midi Olympique announced Friday that several meetings have taken place between representatives of French and English, which may suggest an agreement between both parties. But the Celts are not yet open to reform. And to change the formula of the Heineken Cup, the unanimous vote of the six nations is required. The beginning of a long consensus ...Find more information on Friday in Midi Olympique ...

 

[psychic duck]

Here is a brief summary on the proposed new format from the English and French teams for those who haven't seen it:

Heineken Cup qualification (20 teams)
Top 6 sides from the Top 14
Top 6 sides from the Aviva Premiership
Top 6 sides from the RaboDirect Pro12
Extra team from nation of the winner of the Heineken Cup
Winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup/Extra team from the nation of the winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup

Under these rules the qualifiers for the 2012/13 Heineken Cup would be:
Leinster, Toulouse, Biarritz, Munster, Northampton, Clermont, Ulster, Leicester, Harlequins, Toulon, Ospreys, Scarlets, Glasgow, Saracens, Connacht, Sale, Castres, Racing-Métro, Montpellier, Exeter
Teams who would miss out who qualify from the current system:
Cardiff Blues, Edinburgh, Treviso, Zebre

Amlin Challenge Cup qualification (20 teams)
Remaining 7/8 sides from the Top 14
Remaing 5/6 sides from the Aviva Premiership
Remaining 5/6 sides from the RaboDirect Pro12
Top two teams from a new third tier European tournament which would include clubs from Italy, Spain, Romania, Portugal, Russia, Georgia

Under these rules the teams for the 2012/13 Amlin Challenge Cup would be:
Cardiff Blues, Stade Français, Edinburgh, Wasps, Perpignan, Bath, Gloucester, London Irish, Treviso, Dragons, Newcastle, Worcester, Bayonne, Agen, Bordeaux-Bègles, Mont-de-Marsan, Grenoble, Zebre, Winner of third tier tournament, Runner Up of third tier tournament

New proposed third tier European nation tournament (? teams)
Teams from the Italian league (Eccellenza)
Teams from the Spanish league (División de Honor)
Teams from the Romanian league (the SuperLiga)
Teams from the Portuguese league (Divisão de Honra)
Teams from the Russian league (Professional Rugby League)
Teams from the Georgian league (Georgian Championship)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-nations-over-Heineken-Cup-qualification.html

 

[Feicarsinn]

To be honest I'm not opposed to the changes proposed. Maybe I'm coming from a privileged position in that my team is pretty much guaranteed to qualify for the tournament, but it would be nice to have a bit more legitimacy added to the Celtic League.

 

[Melhor Time]

Here is a brief summary on the proposed new format from the English and French teams for those who haven't seen it:

Heineken Cup qualification (20 teams)
Top 6 sides from the Top 14
Top 6 sides from the Aviva Premiership
Top 6 sides from the RaboDirect Pro12
Extra team from nation of the winner of the Heineken Cup
Winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup/Extra team from the nation of the winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup

Under these rules the qualifiers for the 2012/13 Heineken Cup would be:
Leinster, Toulouse, Biarritz, Munster, Northampton, Clermont, Ulster, Leicester, Harlequins, Toulon, Ospreys, Scarlets, Glasgow, Saracens, Connacht, Sale, Castres, Racing-Métro, Montpellier, Exeter
Teams who would miss out who qualify from the current system:
Cardiff Blues, Edinburgh, Treviso, Zebre

Amlin Challenge Cup qualification (20 teams)
Remaining 7/8 sides from the Top 14
Remaing 5/6 sides from the Aviva Premiership
Remaining 5/6 sides from the RaboDirect Pro12
Top two teams from a new third tier European tournament which would include clubs from Italy, Spain, Romania, Portugal, Russia, Georgia

Under these rules the teams for the 2012/13 Amlin Challenge Cup would be:
Cardiff Blues, Stade Français, Edinburgh, Wasps, Perpignan, Bath, Gloucester, London Irish, Treviso, Dragons, Newcastle, Worcester, Bayonne, Agen, Bordeaux-Bègles, Mont-de-Marsan, Grenoble, Zebre, Winner of third tier tournament, Runner Up of third tier tournament

New proposed third tier European nation tournament (? teams)
Teams from the Italian league (Eccellenza)
Teams from the Spanish league (División de Honor)
Teams from the Romanian league (the SuperLiga)
Teams from the Portuguese league (Divisão de Honra)
Teams from the Russian league (Professional Rugby League)
Teams from the Georgian league (Georgian Championship)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-nations-over-Heineken-Cup-qualification.html

yes please!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Agree with the changes in PDs post, that would be the best way forward imo, and would spice up the Pro12 a bit too.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

 

[SelimNiai]

Here is a brief summary on the proposed new format from the English and French teams for those who haven't seen it:

Heineken Cup qualification (20 teams)
Top 6 sides from the Top 14
Top 6 sides from the Aviva Premiership
Top 6 sides from the RaboDirect Pro12
Extra team from nation of the winner of the Heineken Cup
Winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup/Extra team from the nation of the winner of the Amlin Challenge Cup

Under these rules the qualifiers for the 2012/13 Heineken Cup would be:
Leinster, Toulouse, Biarritz, Munster, Northampton, Clermont, Ulster, Leicester, Harlequins, Toulon, Ospreys, Scarlets, Glasgow, Saracens, Connacht, Sale, Castres, Racing-Métro, Montpellier, Exeter
Teams who would miss out who qualify from the current system:
Cardiff Blues, Edinburgh, Treviso, Zebre

Amlin Challenge Cup qualification (20 teams)
Remaining 7/8 sides from the Top 14
Remaing 5/6 sides from the Aviva Premiership
Remaining 5/6 sides from the RaboDirect Pro12
Top two teams from a new third tier European tournament which would include clubs from Italy, Spain, Romania, Portugal, Russia, Georgia

Under these rules the teams for the 2012/13 Amlin Challenge Cup would be:
Cardiff Blues, Stade Français, Edinburgh, Wasps, Perpignan, Bath, Gloucester, London Irish, Treviso, Dragons, Newcastle, Worcester, Bayonne, Agen, Bordeaux-Bègles, Mont-de-Marsan, Grenoble, Zebre, Winner of third tier tournament, Runner Up of third tier tournament

New proposed third tier European nation tournament (? teams)
Teams from the Italian league (Eccellenza)
Teams from the Spanish league (División de Honor)
Teams from the Romanian league (the SuperLiga)
Teams from the Portuguese league (Divisão de Honra)
Teams from the Russian league (Professional Rugby League)
Teams from the Georgian league (Georgian Championship)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...-nations-over-Heineken-Cup-qualification.html

Difficult to find fault with that in the main

 

[Teh Mite]

Reads well to me. Now for the beurocrats to argue against it and delay it for 3 seasons.

 

[psychic duck]

Agree with the changes in PDs post, that would be the best way forward imo, and would spice up the Pro12 a bit too.

Sent from my HTC Incredible S using Tapatalk 2

yes, with the current system a Dragons v Treviso match for example wouldn't mean much, but it would be more important with qualification at stake

also I don't buy that no Italian team in the H Cup hurts Italian rugby,

in the Amlin Challenge Cup Treviso could realistically reach a quarter final, or get close, or even get further

that in my opinion would benefit Italian rugby and interest fans at least as much as being in the Heineken Cup where they have no realistic chance of reaching the quarter finals, and the best they can hope for is an upset or two

I also really like the proposed idea of a third ERC tournament for the rest of Europe