What should be the H Cup qualification system?

[welshglory]

IMHO the Pro12 is a shithouse competition.

The only reason i bother to watch any games is because i support the Ospreys.

 

[Tony Manx]

The Celtic nations proposed a single extended tournament of 32 teams. With all 12 RaboPro12 sides, 10 Aviva Premiership sides and 12 Top 14 sides involved.

Er I think that is 34?

What about 12 AP 14 Top 14 and 6 Rabo teams to reflect the quality differences?!

 

[profitius]

Er I think that is 34?

What about 12 AP 14 Top 14 and 6 Rabo teams to reflect the quality differences?!

We'll see who is left at the business end of the season. Its a marathon, not a sprint.

 

[Teh Mite]

So the French are allowed excuses but the Rabo countries are not.

Reasoning, not excuses. Besides, nobody (including the competing teams) could give a tarts furry cup about the celtic purgatory league.

 

[Teh Mite]

We'll see who is left at the business end of the season. Its a marathon, not a sprint.

A marathon is playing your best side for nigh-on 30 games in a season. Not less then 10.

 

[McTallshort]

Isnt the proposal the top 6 teams with the winners of last years HC and Amlin cup?

 

[Teh Mite]

^^ Yep.

The bit I find deliciously amusing is the "[celts proposed a] extended 32 team tournament", so in essence they want a European super league... The exact thing they were dead set against only a few years ago.

They (Celtic Rugby ltd) are starting to sound like the Labour party - Opposing for oppositions sake without having any real agenda or policy, except of course looking after number 1 while pretending to be of the people.

 

[TrueSlawter]

^^ Yep.

The bit I find deliciously amusing is the "[celts proposed a] extended 32 team tournament", so in essence they want a European super league... The exact thing they were dead set against only a few years ago.

They (Celtic Rugby ltd) are starting to sound like the Labour party - Opposing for oppositions sake without having any real agenda or policy, except of course looking after number 1 while pretending to be of the people.

So the PRL are there for the good of the people?


I do think it should be restructured.. However for the good of the game they will have to figure a balance out for the pro12 qualifiers.. Also as for the proposed 12,10,10 thing it'd never be agreed dont know why they suggested it.. IMO 6 from Pro12, 6 from AP and 6 from Top14 then the winners of the HC and Amlin is the best way forwards. Then as for money split it evenly between all 3 as at the end of the day they have the same amount of teams competing from each league why should one get more than the other?

 

[Teh Mite]

No, the PRL are a privately operated company, with the top-flight clubs as the shareholder members, who organise tournaments. Essentially they are the same equivalent as the football Premier League only with it's own board of directors.

Celtic Rugby ltd are similar, except they were formed by the 3 celtic unions and operate under a close circuit after the Scots join the old Welsh Premiership. It is an exclusive membership company as company share cannot be transfered.

Big difference.

 

[mulldog]

My proposed system could be that the top 7 teams from the Rabo, Top 14 and Aviva automatically qualifies for group stage.

In order to find out the remaining 3 teams which go into the group stage there could be a preliminary qualifying round which involves an open draw between the 8th placed teams in each league, along winners and runners up in the Almin or something.

It gives extra importance to the Amlin which I think is important.

 

[skitee]

Personally, why should it be either? The top 8 in each league would be not judging the difference between each league and the way that the Rabo is made up of different countries. What about a system with 24 teams, like it is right now, with a default allocation of:
-3 spots for the top-ranked Irish sides
-2 for Welsh
-1 for Italian
-1 for Scottish
-4 for English
-4 for French
-1 more for the country where the winner of the Challenge Cup came from

The remaining 8 places will be made up of the country where each of the previous season's quarter finalists came from. If a country from the PRO12 has more allocations than teams, then the allocation due to that country will be passed on to the next-highest finisher in the PRO12 who didn't qualify for the HC.

I reckon that'd solve a few problems.

 

[Teh Mite]

So 4 from the English and French Leagues then 8 from the celtic?

You are from Dublin AICMFP.

 

[Draggs]

First of all, scrap the guaranteed slots for each Pro12 team. Why should a country be guaranteed into the HC if they are bottom of the league?
Top 6/7/8 or whatever from the league are given HC slots, simple.

 

[psychic duck]

First of all, scrap the guaranteed slots for each Pro12 team. Why should a country be guaranteed into the HC if they are bottom of the league?
Top 6/7/8 or whatever from the league are given HC slots, simple.

I think perhaps there should be just one guaranteed position for the top Italian/Scottish side. That way it removes the risk of the European Cup becoming just 4 nations, but means that those sides still have to some sort of competition and can't afford to switch off in the league.

It would also be a compromise where both sides of the argument get an element of what they want. Even if it's not perfect.

However I don't understand why the Celtic League is against a third European tournament proposed by France and England for the Tier 2 European nations and what would act as a qualifier to the Amlin Challenge Cup. That's nothing to do with them getting H Cup spots, so I don't know what it is about it that would make the Celts block it.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

However I don't understand why the Celtic League is against a third European tournament proposed by France and England for the Tier 2 European nations and what would act as a qualifier to the Amlin Challenge Cup. That's nothing to do with them getting H Cup spots, so I don't know what it is about it that would make the Celts block it.

Just like the English and French clubs want a bigger share of revenue from the tournament, I suspect money is the key behind the Celtic unions' opposition to a third competition. Somebody would have to pay for the new competition since TV companies won't care. If the Celtic unions' portion of TV prizemoney is going to be cut by compromising with the French and English clubs, they sure as hell won't compromise further with tier 2 nations unless it pays them to do so.

There was a third competition at one point by the way. The European Shield was a disaster and lasted only 2 or 3 seasons.

 

[Amiga500]

Why should a country be guaranteed into the HC if they are bottom of the league?

Please remember it is a competition organised by the national unions, not the leagues. Hence each union will want representation.

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Personally, I am changing my tune a bit on this - I now want to see some form of qualification, but at the same time I don't want to endanger the growth, or accelerate the decline of rugby in weaker nations. To that end, I don't want the financial split to change, regardless of what teams qualify from what country - so even if Ireland get all 4 teams in, Italy or Scotland (assuming they are the weaker nation) should still get their current financial share to help develop their game. Otherwise we face the scenario where only one our two countries can win the HEC AND the 6 nations.



So leaving aside the financial argument and moving onto qualification.

20 teams:
Top 6 English
Top 6 French
Top Irish
Top Italian
Top Scottish
Top Welsh
Next 2 best placed Pro12 teams
Previous HEC winner
Previous Amlin winner


So that is a split of 30% English, 30% French, 5-15% Irish, 5-10% Italian, 5-10% Scottish, 5-15% Welsh. [leaving aside previous years winners]



24 teams:
Top 7 English
Top 7 French
Top Irish
Top Italian
Top Scottish
Top Welsh
Next 4 best placed Pro12 teams
Previous HEC winner
Previous Amlin winner

Which is a split of 29% English, 29% French, 4-17% Irish, 4-8% Italian, 4-8% Scottish, 4-17% Welsh. [again, leaving aside previous years winners]

 

[Amiga500]

However I don't understand why the Celtic League is against a third European tournament proposed by France and England for the Tier 2 European nations and what would act as a qualifier to the Amlin Challenge Cup. That's nothing to do with them getting H Cup spots, so I don't know what it is about it that would make the Celts block it.

Would the T2 nations not be better served by stronger domestic leagues and grass-roots rather than expensive travelling across Europe?

Or would playing in a "European Shield" for the chance to play in the Amlin attract supporters out the door and build a bigger support base?



I would have thought it better building from the grassroots up rather than top down. Ensuring the amateur leagues are well run/officiated/organised and channel funding to club development schemes (i.e. pitches, training gear etc) would have a much better long-term impact on the game [IMO].

I'm comparing it to Gaelic here, which is definitely built from the grassroots up. Most clubs own their own pitches with changing rooms (that is on a village level), and compete within the county. From that, players then feed into the county teams which compete on a national level. Extremely solid foundations and a massive support base (far bigger than rugby in Ireland - and what would Wales/Scotland/Italy do to have the Irish-like attendance figures at their games) - which is also extremely active within the clubs and community... in many parishes, the club is the community.

 

[psychic duck]

Just want to point out that the Celtic Rugby's view on the European format is ridiculous and hypocritical.

Firstly this season's Heineken Cup performance of a few teams has done nothing to strengthen their argument. Under the English/French proposed format the tournament would be cut to 20 teams, and the RaboPro12 qualifying on merit.

Looking at the teams that wouldn't have made the Heineken Cup this season under that format. They really didn't do anything to help their cause. Just look at the dismal results of Edinburgh and Zebre both of whom would have been half of the teams cut out. And to a lesser extent the Cardiff Blues who also wouldn't have been in under the 20 team format.

All those teams basically did was distort the tournament and allow for all the teams in their respective groups to get gifted home quarter finals.

Booting out Zebre and Edinburgh would actually lead to a more exciting tournament with more competitive games in my opinion. And not just the current situation where the group winner is given a home QF with them in their pool.

I also don't understand why Celtic Rugby doesn't get that qualification would improve their product of the RaboPro12 and then lead to more money into that tournament with more meaningful games.

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Secondly, the argument about keeping the guaranteed spots for the likes of Zebre and Edinburgh to make sure the tournament remains continental is rubbish and hypocritical.

The same Celtic Rugby who are using that as an argument for keeping two guaranteed spots for Italy and Scotland, are also trying to prevent the English/French plans to give opportunities to Tier 2 European clubs in the Amlin Challenge Cup or a third tournament.

In fact despite the Celtic Rugby preference for the status quo. Their alternatives were a single tournament of 32 teams from the leagues, including all 12 of the RaboPro12 having guaranteed places, and Aviva Premiership and Top 14 10 each.

 

[McTallshort]

The 32 team effort is shocking, what would happen to our current club game if that got started?

Its hard to understand the arguement against a change to the HC, people talk about development of the game but since the HC started all those years ago its hard to see how it has helped the Scottish, Welsh or the Italians. The irish have been helped by a real deal region set up, lack of salary cap and tax breaks for players staying in Ireland but having loads of teams in the top tourament has only really helped the nations that have won it and out of the 6 nations involved only 3 have.