What now for NH rugby?

[FrenchFan]

Like I said, try telling a Frenchman he is wrong.... .

The question about England not being able to win 6N is still wide open...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I don't think there is any one reason for anything this complex. If I might put down a few random thoughts in no particular order (apologies, this is just how my mind works);

- I don't think one can blame the weather for anything; NZ is pretty damn cold and wet especially in the South and the Highlanders just won this year's Super Rugby playing some bloody entertaining rugby. SA's climate on the other hand is perfect for backing your runners yet we see the traditionally more sucessful SA teams trying to bludgeon each other to death. Its simply culture IMO. No easy thing to change but at least more easy than changing the weather.
- Part f that culture stems from the type of rugby played in domestic leagues. I think formative years are as important but I'll get to that later. In Europe the teams are many and the seasons are long. This means money BUT it leads to a few things that will hurt your national side; your talent is spread across so many teams its difficult to select pre-existing combinations from club/province to test sides so interplay gets a knock right there and thats whats needed in most team sports and I'd argue in Rugby Union more than most. Also, more different teams means more unique ways of playing the game so you have to reprogramme players entering the national fold, select players that already play the type of rugby you want or otherwise try and fit square pegs into round holes.
- Foreign players filling random positions just exacerbates this situation of not being able to pick existing combinations.
- Long seasons means a less 'expressive' style of play will probably be a safer bet.
- Big money and a seperation of power (at least more than in the SH) means the domestic game is just about in direct opposition to the National team's purposes.

Erm, I'm just starting to ramble now but has the tournament actually been all that disastorous for the NH? I mean, one would expect the SANZAR teams to have gone through in any case. Two of the top NH teams were in the pool of death and one would expect all teams coming out of that pool to be a tad hurt coming into the QFs nevermind that one of those 3 teams was always going to miss out. It could've pretty easily have gone otherwise the differences are so small. France under PSA just has no soul and they've sent in a B team in many regards. I almost want to say they don't count ATM. Scotland, Ireland and Wales have actually all made massive strides the last while IMO. If anything I am saying that NH rugby is healthier than what it was 2 years ago its just things didn't pan out; its been NH teams who've been unlucky with calls, injuries and Argentina is in rude health. No great shakes.

 

[PacDuran]

Two

Tony Woodcock for NZ
Thierry Dusautoir for France


As long as the NH fans, players, coaches and administrators continue to have the attitude that International Rugby is less important than Club Rugby, and only surpasses the domestic game in importance at World Cup time, they will continue to struggle at World Cups.

They simply cant just put up their best players for 6N, disrespect the Southern Tours and Autumn Internationals and expect to just rock up to he RWC and start winning... not any more. The NH teams have been caught out by the changes in the game over the last 4 to 8 years. The game is faster now than it has been since the early days of Super Rugby, with quick ball from the breakdown and players from 1 to 23 with great skill-sets. Players like Faumuina and Moody and Coles don't get their amazing passing and handling skills overnight or out of a Cornflakes packet. They are brought up with it, from schoolboy rugby, through JAB, through age-grade rep. teams, through ITM Cup and Super Rugby. As players advance, it is not enough to just do their core tasks really well, there are plenty of those about. Its the players with the additional skillsets who will be picked for rep. honours and further advancement.

If NH teams they to succeed, then the Club v Country antagonism might have to change, but first, the whole mindset needs to change from the grass roots upwards before you even consider dealing with the Club v Country issues.

Sorry my mistake. Agree on all points. Club v Country is a huge problem but the biggest problem is rivall sports. In Ireland we have the hugely popular Gaelic football and soccer also. NZ doesn't have much competition for numbers and resources. We also need to get rid of all foreign players! It's pretty obvious why a national team's performance would decline when there is a huge amount of foreign players in domestic competitions, another problem NZ doesn't have.

 

[barthelemy]

ah yes..Eng got it right. is that why they got knocked out in pool stages and can't win the 6N in last 4 yrs.

He is right, it is the top14 and the mentality of the clubs the issue in France. at least England is almost winning the 6 nations, not like France being with the almost wooden spoon since 4 years and being slapped shamefully by NZ. England was in a death pool, not France.

You are typical of this french supporters that I know in France, never blaming the clubs and the money, being happy with the crappy display every weekend with Scrums lasting 30 minutes of the game in top14 and blaming the federation all the time.

For the federation, have your fact rights : the federation can't with a 100 millions budget a year contract properly players and compensate properly the clubs, this is as simple. Even if the federation was managed perfectly, they would not be able to compete withe money that clubs are offering to players. If they want to do a stadium, this is to improve this. Twickenham profits are bringing 40% of the budget of the RFU, have your facts right. These 40% budget difference with the FFR enable the RFU to offer something a bit more interesting to clubs and to players. the result is that the RFU can have the players on a more regular basis along the year than the FFR.

This is a question of money and this is not at the same time. NZRU is founding the rugby in NZ and is controlling it closely. In France, this is the other way around, clubs are founding the federation. In NZ, the focus is the rugby, this is a national pride, everybody wants to work together for excellence and everybody agrees on the way to make it happen, to have the best team of the world. In France, this is not the case, Clubs are fighting the federation and vice versa, every agreement about the french team is painful, clubs do care about the national team only if they can let their player a minimum time to play with the national team.

You can offer golden bridge to NZ players to come to play in France, they would not, their national team is above everything, we are sadly far from this in France. We are developping a mercenary culture and that will get worse and worse. and not only the club and the money are to blame, players are to blame as well, they are quite happy with that situation because they are making money.

in France, there is a lot of competition for Rugby, Rugby is far to be the main focus in France (I won't remind everybody but we have been world champion in many sports) and this explains as well the result of the french team of rugby and the mess about the french rugby.

We do not have the culture of excellence that you can find in NZ or other countries about rugby.

 

[TRF_heineken]

You keep talking about the "north" but you're only describing one out of the three leagues - none of it applies to the home nations even remotely.

There were some narrow margins in this world cup between victory and defeat but unfortunately I'm hearing lots of wilfull ignorance from northern posters about the relative state of things.

I agree that england had poor selection issues, wales many injuries and that Scotland were hard done by with the final penalty.

None of this explains why we routinely lose - and we do - to the southern hemisphere teams. Wales have faced Australia with a fully fit squad many times and still lost in their own backyard. How many times now? And I can't remember the last time England fluked a win against South Africa. Let's not talk about New Zealand...


The problem for Wales and the rest of us is not so much that Jonathan Davies was injured(for example) so much as the fact that there wasn't anywhere in wales another player who has equal skills and qualities. HE SHOULD NOT BE IRREPLACEABLE. Worse, England couldn't find an inside centre deemed suitably skilled in 4 years of looking.

Think of it like this. If we took away all coaches from the top international sides for 6 months worth of games and made them play each other, how would it turn out?

Only those teams whose instincts have been properly nurtured would cope, and that's only the southern sides in my book. The point about coaching should be that it embeds the right skills, instincts and mentalities, rather than babysitting players through a game plan to win a one off game as we tend to do in the north.

None of these arguments are new. But to blame our world cups on happenstance is to forget our appalling records against the southern teams.

Yeah, I use the North as all the 6 Nations teams combined. I'm generalising because I see from my personal view all the NH in the same light. The reason for that is I see South African guys on a yearly basis going to the NH to play rugby, for a lot of money. Whether it's for Montpellier, Ulster, Saracens, or whoever else, it always comes down to getting a lot of money.

But one thing that does help is that when the Sprigboks are called up, some of those guys are called back to the Bok Camp, Ruan Pienaar, Francois Louw, Zane Kirchner, Morne Steyn, Bryan Habana, Schalk Brits... Not only do they bring experience into the camp, but they give us a lot of inside info on the players, playing conditions and other things that could be of interest. Whereas only Freddy Michalak and Andy Goode would be able to give their team info on South African play, culture and whatever else.

It certainly helps

 

[barthelemy]

But one thing that does help is that when the Sprigboks are called up, some of those guys are called back to the Bok Camp, Ruan Pienaar, Francois Louw, Zane Kirchner, Morne Steyn, Bryan Habana, Schalk Brits... Not only do they bring experience into the camp, but they give us a lot of inside info on the players, playing conditions and other things that could be of interest. Whereas only Freddy Michalak and Andy Goode would be able to give their team info on South African play, culture and whatever else.

It certainly helps

Spot on !

 

[Hulkster]

Sorry my mistake. Agree on all points. Club v Country is a huge problem but the biggest problem is rivall sports. In Ireland we have the hugely popular Gaelic football and soccer also. NZ doesn't have much competition for numbers and resources. We also need to get rid of all foreign players! It's pretty obvious why a national team's performance would decline when there is a huge amount of foreign players in domestic competitions, another problem NZ doesn't have.

It's only in New Zealand where rugby union is king (though the still field world class cricket and rugby league sides).

All other countries have competing sports and sports mote popular than rugby union.

 

[barthelemy]

I don't think there is any one reason for anything this complex. If I might put down a few random thoughts in no particular order (apologies, this is just how my mind works);

- I don't think one can blame the weather for anything; NZ is pretty damn cold and wet especially in the South and the Highlanders just won this year's Super Rugby playing some bloody entertaining rugby. SA's climate on the other hand is perfect for backing your runners yet we see the traditionally more sucessful SA teams trying to bludgeon each other to death. Its simply culture IMO. No easy thing to change but at least more easy than changing the weather.
- Part f that culture stems from the type of rugby played in domestic leagues. I think formative years are as important but I'll get to that later. In Europe the teams are many and the seasons are long. This means money BUT it leads to a few things that will hurt your national side; your talent is spread across so many teams its difficult to select pre-existing combinations from club/province to test sides so interplay gets a knock right there and thats whats needed in most team sports and I'd argue in Rugby Union more than most. Also, more different teams means more unique ways of playing the game so you have to reprogramme players entering the national fold, select players that already play the type of rugby you want or otherwise try and fit square pegs into round holes.
- Foreign players filling random positions just exacerbates this situation of not being able to pick existing combinations.
- Long seasons means a less 'expressive' style of play will probably be a safer bet.
- Big money and a seperation of power (at least more than in the SH) means the domestic game is just about in direct opposition to the National team's purposes.

Erm, I'm just starting to ramble now but has the tournament actually been all that disastorous for the NH? I mean, one would expect the SANZAR teams to have gone through in any case. Two of the top NH teams were in the pool of death and one would expect all teams coming out of that pool to be a tad hurt coming into the QFs nevermind that one of those 3 teams was always going to miss out. It could've pretty easily have gone otherwise the differences are so small. France under PSA just has no soul and they've sent in a B team in many regards. I almost want to say they don't count ATM. Scotland, Ireland and Wales have actually all made massive strides the last while IMO. If anything I am saying that NH rugby is healthier than what it was 2 years ago its just things didn't pan out; its been NH teams who've been unlucky with calls, injuries and Argentina is in rude health. No great shakes.

Fully agree with all your points.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

First thing we do is get rid of Lucozade!!!!!

[video=youtube_share;TpSqEKpTLUI]http://youtu.be/TpSqEKpTLUI[/video]

 

[FrenchFan]

You are typical of this french supporters that I know in France, never blaming the clubs and the money, being happy with the crappy display every weekend with Scrums lasting 30 minutes of the game in top14 and blaming the federation all the time.

I couldn't care less the union is in a pickle. They made their bed and can't lie in it. They've had it coming for long enough.They had their chance to contract the internationals and walked away from it a long time ago (after 1995 RWC precisely). Nobody in club rugby is going to shed tears for them. And Noves is not going to save the day for them either.

All they've done for the last 10 yrs is get on the wrong side of the clubs with endless politicking and useless schemes like the LNR Agreement and 30-game limit that was shoved down the clubs throat and yielded Zero results.
It is up to FFR and LNR to reform the leagues here and rise up to their responsibilities. But we know they can't live up to that.
Their record in appointing the national selector is catastrophic. We had Lievremont, PSA, and now Noves, not looking great either http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/36670-France-Post-WC-discussion?p=762783&viewfull=1#post762783

And who made all these decisions? The union.

For the federation, have your fact rights : the federation can't with a 100 millions budget a year contract properly players and compensate properly the clubs, this is as simple. Even if the federation was managed perfectly, they would not be able to compete withe money that clubs are offering to players. If they want to do a stadium, this is to improve this. Twickenham profits are bringing 40% of the budget of the RFU, have your facts right. These 40% budget difference with the FFR enable the RFU to offer something a bit more interesting to clubs and to players. RFU can have the players on a more regular basis along the year than the FFR.

The new stadium you're raving about is a risky gamble. Financially, it's risky and costly. It will put the union into debt to the tune of 300M euros. In today's debt ridden economy, and with a union already on shaky financial ground, it is lunacy. The location for that stadium is a poor choice : 33 Km outside of Paris in Ris Orangis, the back of beyond. You shud take a trip there and see for yourself.
And the financial outcome for the region is already being felt: l'Essonne has been downgraded by Standard and Poor's.
Read for yourself http://cpdp.debatpublic.fr/cpdp-grandstaderugby/docs/documents-cpdp/gdstaderugby-compte-rendu-debat.pdf

How is that good? This is another FFr cock-up in the making. So take off the FFr blinkers and get your facts right as well.
I find it hilarious to hear lectures from FFr minions about 'all that money in T14 blabla' when the union is prepared to sink a staggering 600 M euros (and possibly more as they will no doubt go over budget). There is nothing in T14 that comes anywhere close to 600M euros!
It is more than double the total budget of all clubs combined!! Yet we know France Women and France Sevens managed by same FFr are chronically underfunded. And never mind the fact this country doesn't need another rugby stadium...

You should be able to land a job at FFr in their Propaganda Dept as another of their parrots :huh:. They need all the help they can get.

 

[ncurd]

First thing we do is get rid of Lucozade!!!!!

[video=youtube_share;TpSqEKpTLUI]http://youtu.be/TpSqEKpTLUI[/video]

It's a double bluff, the southerners clearly contaminated that batch in the van to make us play worse once we confiscated it of them. They knew they'd get caught!

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

It's a double bluff, the southerners clearly contaminated that batch in the van to make us play worse once we confiscated it of them. They knew they'd get caught!

Dear god that's right up there with South Africans coughing into the all blacks food in 1995!!!!!!!!

I feel a M. Night Shyamalan film coming up.

 

[barthelemy]

I couldn't care less the union is in a pickle. They made their bed and can't lie in it. They've had it coming for long enough.They had their chance to contract the internationals and walked away from it a long time ago (after 1995 RWC precisely). Nobody in club rugby is going to shed tears for them. And Noves is not going to save the day for them either.

You are just confirming my point, you could not care less and you are like thousands of supporters in France who are just happy to see their provincial team play and listen to the pilou pilou (or their bandas) every weekend, you could not care less about the rest, you are a perfect example of why the french rugby is in the crap

All they've done for the last 10 yrs is get on the wrong side of the clubs with endless politicking and useless schemes like the LNR Agreement and 30-game limit that was shoved down the clubs throat and yielded Zero results.
It is up to FFR and LNR to reform the leagues here and rise up to their responsibilities. But we know they can't live up to that.
Their record in appointing the national selector is catastrophic. We had Lievremont, PSA, and now Noves, not looking great either http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/36670-France-Post-WC-discussion?p=762783&viewfull=1#post762783

And who made all these decisions? The union.

the LNR is the clubs, just a reminder.

I have never said that the union does not have any responsibility in this mess but they have very little power today to change things. but you, you are putting everything on them.

The new stadium you're raving about is a risky gamble. Financially, it's risky and costly. It will put the union into debt to the tune of 300M euros. In today's debt ridden economy, and with a union already on shaky financial ground, it is lunacy. The location for that stadium is a poor choice : 33 Km outside of Paris in Ris Orangis, the back of beyond. You shud take a trip there and see for yourself.
And the financial outcome for the region is already being felt: l'Essonne has been downgraded by Standard and Poor's.
Read for yourself http://cpdp.debatpublic.fr/cpdp-gra...ents-cpdp/gdstaderugby-compte-rendu-debat.pdf

How is that good? This is another FFr cock-up in the making. So take off the FFr blinkers and get your facts right as well.
I find it hilarious to hear lectures from FFr minions about 'all that money in T14 blabla' when the union is prepared to sink a staggering 600 M euros (and possibly more as they will no doubt go over budget). There is nothing in T14 that comes anywhere close to 600M euros!
It is more than double the total budget of all clubs combined!! Yet we know France Women and France Sevens managed by same FFr are chronically underfunded. And never mind the fact this country doesn't need another rugby stadium...

You should be able to land a job at FFr in their Propaganda Dept as another of their parrots :huh:. They need all the help they can get.

Again, I have not raved about the stadium project, I'm just saying that this is a part of the way out for the federation moneywise. surely, it would be better to build it smartly but I think wherever it would be build, you would criticize anyway. and you did not answer to my twickhenam argument, the federation needs some money, you can't deny that.

As it stands, the federation can't contract the players, this was my point.

 

[FrenchFan]

You are just confirming my point, you could not care less and you are like thousands of supporters in France who are just happy to see their provincial team play and listen to the pilou pilou (or their bandas) every weekend, you could not care less about the rest, you are a perfect example of why the french rugby is in the crap

Pilou Pilou is Toulon. I'm Toulouse. You can't tell Toulouse from Toulon?!

'provincial team'?! WTF. There is no provincial team in this country. I support Toulouse, they're a club team. What a d***h*** :lol:.

Again, I have not raved about the stadium project, I'm just saying that this is a part of the way out for the federation moneywise. surely, it would be better to build it smartly but I think wherever it would be build, you would criticize anyway. and you did not answer to my twickhenam argument, the federation needs some money, you can't deny that.

You're a dope. Just parroting back the union's propanda. You can't come up with one shred of evidence to show their stadium is financially viable. On the contrary, there's already unbiased evidence that it is not. A downgrade from Standard and Poor's for starters. What a great start..
I am not talking about RFU. Your point about Twickenham has no point. Countries and unions are in vastly different situations. You can't just copy and paste what worked for one country and think it'll apply just the same over here.

You're a dope. Get a job with FFr. They love suckers like ya.

 

[ncurd]

One of the things to remember is building things back in 1907 and then subsequent expansion is far cheaper than trying to build something new in todays age.

Now I've no idea what all the subsequent developments on Twickenham cost but to build the initial stadium today would cost a mere fraction of a new French stadium.

http://www.measuringworth.com/ukcompare/relativevalue.php
In 2014, the relative value of £5,500 12s 6d from 1907 ranges from £519,700 to £4,682,000.

Try to remember that when thinking if the investment is good. We get all the money form Twickeham due to 105 years of investment into the stadium not just trying a flash in the pan solution that short terms could have disastrous financial implications.

- - - Updated - - -

In more recent context the MS cost a mere 121 million

Wembley cost 798 million but the FA has oodles of money.

 

[barthelemy]

Pilou Pilou is Toulon. I'm Toulouse. You can't tell Toulouse from Toulon?!

'provincial team'?! WTF. There is no provincial team in this country. I support Toulouse, they're a club team. What a d***h*** :lol:.

same crap

You're a dope. Just parroting back the union's propanda. You can't come up with one shred of evidence to show their stadium is financially viable. On the contrary, there's already unbiased evidence that it is not. A downgrade from Standard and Poor's for starters. What a great start..
I am not talking about RFU. Your point about Twickenham has no point. Countries and unions are in vastly different situations. You can't just copy and paste what worked for one country and think it'll apply just the same over here.

You're a dope. Get a job with FFr. They love suckers like ya.

Twickenham is the evidence, it works for the english (I'm not even saying of copying perfectly, I'm talking about the concept), there are events all along the year in this stadium. I'm not even disscussing about the specific project in Essone or anywwhere lese, I do not care, it is you who just went all bersek on this. I'm discussing about the idea to have a way to make more money and having a stadium is a good Idea, I do not care where it is built as long as it is working. But no, for guys like you, everything that comes from the FFR is a bad idea anyway, the 30 men squad ? bad idea. the stadium ? bad idea. surely, we will have better days with guys like you. Only negativity and narrow mind, typical french club supporters from his small region. This is what kill the national rugby in France.

 

[TJAY]

1 nz


2 aus
=3 sa/arg
=5 ire/wal
=7 eng/sc
9 fra
10 fij
11 jap
12 sam

 

[shiznit26]

There is a gap, but it's not quite the chasm some people are suggesting.

The ABs or anyone else would have struggled with the number of injuries to key players that Wales and Ireland suffered. Both were in with a decent shout of the semis with reasonably full strength teams. The Scots came within a whisker of beating many people's favourites and the Rugby Championship winners.

England? Firstly, it's accepted that we're at a fairly early stage of the development cycle (compare our caps to NZ, SA, AUS, WAL, IRE....) and should have a much stronger team come 2019. But there was also a series of own goals in the build up - the ongoing centre and back row selection fiascos, seemingly a cock up in the Colorado fitness camp and then weak on and off field leadership. The good news is that most of this can be fixed relatively easily. We have some some excellent players, many already in the squad. Get the right men in charge and things could start to look a lot more positive very quickly.

The French however really do seem to be in a mess. The international game is poorer for them being in this state.

You sure about that??

because I seem to remember the All Blacks winning in 2011 with their 4th choice flyhalf who had to be called in from a fishing trip in the bush.

After 2007 the all blacks approached the tournament well aware that injuries happen... They have to be ready and able to deal with it.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Yeah, I use the North as all the 6 Nations teams combined. I'm generalising because I see from my personal view all the NH in the same light. The reason for that is I see South African guys on a yearly basis going to the NH to play rugby, for a lot of money. Whether it's for Montpellier, Ulster, Saracens, or whoever else, it always comes down to getting a lot of money.

Put France aside and I doubt its the sort of money you're envisaging. In the premiership they have to fit within our salary cap. Which has actually constrained our ability to really compete with the French sides which in itself is proof of the difference between France and England.

But also I just don't think you should be so surprised that players want to play overseas. The guys you mention have spent most of their careers in south Africa..... No offence but south Africa isn't the centre of the world, and why wouldn't you want to try playing in Europe where rugby is a bit different, leagues are pretty good, lifestyle good too, show your family a different part of the world.

just because the top springboks can command a food wage abroad doesn't mean its all about the money or that this has affected how good we are.

besides which look at the home nations' clubs and you will find they are predominantly playing home nations players

 

[Hulkster]

I wonder if some English or French club could just decide to put itself forward as a Super Rugby franchise?