What now for NH rugby?

[LukeFitzgerald]

I guess this is the nail in the coffin for "defences win world cups". As I said, defence is important but if you put so much emphasis on it that your attacking game vanishes then it just a slow, painful slide to defeat. Englands defence in the last 6N was a bit more sloppy but the attacking game improved hugely. We then abandoned all that going into the world cup and crashed out in the pool. The Wales game was the real teller, we were clearly playing to not lose in that game and win by the smallest margin we could get away with. It backfired.

Trys in the last 5 world cup finals:
2011 - 2
2007 - 0
2003 - 2
1999 - 2
1995 - 0

History has shown that RWCs aren't won on free flowing rugby. They're intense, attritional matches where the side that makes the least amount of mistakes and fronts up in defense prevails. Now I know these stats aren't the greatest calibrators of how rugby should be played to win RWCs but it's a pretty good indicator that defense is of upmost importance. Like all rugby fans, I'd love to see a replica of the final day of the 2015 6N where it was 4 teams chucking the ball around trying to score as much points as possible but it won't happen. Bruising encounters where there's an emphasis on set piece, defense and the breakdown can be as exciting and tense as a free for all rugby match.

 

[FrenchFan]

The French federation needs money to do this and they do not have this money, this is not a valid argument. Go to look for the federation budget and you will understand. this is why the first thing is to find some money and 1 of the first step is to build a stadium like Twickenham and make some profits out of it.

Of course they don't have the money. They're so badly run. Yet contracting the internationals is the only way out for them. That argument has never been more valid because the clubs are no longer playing ball with them.
They prefer to go into debt and throw +600 M euros at a stadium this country doesn't need.

http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...ost-2016-Final?p=686456&viewfull=1#post686456

 

[roggers2216]

Rewind a year and lots would have assumed Australia were vanishingly unlikely to get through the group, coach had quit, 7 losses in a row, in a shambles, going to play in unfriendly weather conditions, etc.

I'm a Pom living in Oz and I remember listening to the ABC ( Oz version of BBC ) radio, when Mario Ledesma lamented that he had contacted the Australians offering his
services as a scrum coach and had been ignored. He has since worked with the Wallabies and the difference in their scrummaging is plain for all to see.
Can anyone imagine the England setup accepting the same offer of help and advice ?

 

[Zed]

Honestly I don't think we are far off the level of Australia, South Africa and Argentina, Wales run both Australia and South Africa close and probably should of won at least one of those games on another day, Scotland 99percent should of beaten Australia . its not as disastrous as we may think , theres bound to be an over reaction because for the first time no northern hemp team made it through to the semi but sometimes thats the way it goes in sport ..NZ however are just streets ahead of anybody else in the world and that just because they have a conveyer belt of talent, right up from grass roots level , they have the perfect system in place hence why they are the best in the world.

I think if you just look at recent results, they can be misleading. E.g Scotland run NZ close at home 24 – 16, so one could argue that the teams are fairly evenly matched. But it's at the end of a long season for the ABs, they've flown halfway across the world, playing in wet miserable conditions with a long injury list. So you've got to put that game into perspective. Just looking at previous results you can see the gap is as wide as ever – 49 – 3, 32 – 6, 40 – 0. Wales have had a lot of close games against Australia recently, so again you could argue that Wales has bridged the gap. But almost beating an injury ravaged Wallabies side that is fielding one of its worst teams in recent years (pre – Cheika) gives people the false impression that NH teams are closer than ever to their SH counterparts. The reality is Wales haven't beaten the Wallabies in over 10 years. Those 2 point losses might as well be 20 points. The worst thing that could happen to NH rugby, would be for the various countries rugby organizations to stick their head in the sand and pretend there are no problems with how they're running the sport. The SRU might suggest they're going great guns because they should have beaten Australia, forgetting the fact that finished without a win in the 6N, both the WRU and IRU could also argue that without all their injuries they too could have won their quarter final games and nothing changes.

 

[PacDuran]

Trys in the last 5 world cup finals:
2011 - 2
2007 - 0
2003 - 2
1999 - 2
1995 - 0

History has shown that RWCs aren't won on free flowing rugby. They're intense, attritional matches where the side that makes the least amount of mistakes and fronts up in defense prevails. Now I know these stats aren't the greatest calibrators of how rugby should be played to win RWCs but it's a pretty good indicator that defense is of upmost importance. Like all rugby fans, I'd love to see a replica of the final day of the 2015 6N where it was 4 teams chucking the ball around trying to score as much points as possible but it won't happen. Bruising encounters where there's an emphasis on set piece, defense and the breakdown can be as exciting and tense as a free for all rugby match.

Only 1 in 2011 final man.

 

[smartcooky]

Only 1 in 2011 final man.

Two

Tony Woodcock for NZ
Thierry Dusautoir for France


As long as the NH fans, players, coaches and administrators continue to have the attitude that International Rugby is less important than Club Rugby, and only surpasses the domestic game in importance at World Cup time, they will continue to struggle at World Cups.

They simply cant just put up their best players for 6N, disrespect the Southern Tours and Autumn Internationals and expect to just rock up to he RWC and start winning... not any more. The NH teams have been caught out by the changes in the game over the last 4 to 8 years. The game is faster now than it has been since the early days of Super Rugby, with quick ball from the breakdown and players from 1 to 23 with great skill-sets. Players like Faumuina and Moody and Coles don't get their amazing passing and handling skills overnight or out of a Cornflakes packet. They are brought up with it, from schoolboy rugby, through JAB, through age-grade rep. teams, through ITM Cup and Super Rugby. As players advance, it is not enough to just do their core tasks really well, there are plenty of those about. Its the players with the additional skillsets who will be picked for rep. honours and further advancement.

If NH teams they to succeed, then the Club v Country antagonism might have to change, but first, the whole mindset needs to change from the grass roots upwards before you even consider dealing with the Club v Country issues.

 

[Tony Manx]

Two

Tony Woodcock for NZ
Thierry Dusautoir for France


As long as the NH fans, players, coaches and administrators continue to have the attitude that International Rugby is less important than Club Rugby, and only surpasses the domestic game in importance at World Cup time, they will continue to struggle at World Cups.

They simply cant just put up their best players for 6N, disrespect the Southern Tours and Autumn Internationals and expect to just rock up to he RWC and start winning... not any more. The NH teams have been caught out by the changes in the game over the last 4 to 8 years. The game is faster now than it has been since the early days of Super Rugby, with quick ball from the breakdown and players from 1 to 23 with great skill-sets. Players like Faumuina and Moody and Coles don't get their amazing passing and handling skills overnight or out of a Cornflakes packet. They are brought up with it, from schoolboy rugby, through JAB, through age-grade rep. teams, through ITM Cup and Super Rugby. As players advance, it is not enough to just do their core tasks really well, there are plenty of those about. Its the players with the additional skillsets who will be picked for rep. honours and further advancement.

If NH teams they to succeed, then the Club v Country antagonism might have to change, but first, the whole mindset needs to change from the grass roots upwards before you even consider dealing with the Club v Country issues.

Spot on!! I really do believe that in particular the French are much more orientated to the club game than the international one! That could take generations to change......

 

[ncurd]

As long as the NH fans, players, coaches and administrators continue to have the attitude that International Rugby is less important than Club Rugby, and only surpasses the domestic game in importance at World Cup time, they will continue to struggle at World Cups.

Not sure I know of many fans including season ticket holders if any that put club rugby above international. The clubs and coaches at those clubs do but that's what they are paid to do and their lively hoods depend on it. Administrators aren't really interested in either just money. Players are a complex one but many consider international rugby the pinnacle but have to perform well in their club system to get picked so that's what they work hard at doing.

 

[McTallshort]

Not sure I know of many fans including season ticket holders if any that put club rugby above international. The clubs and coaches at those clubs do but that's what they are paid to do and their lively hoods depend on it. Administrators aren't really interested in either just money. Players are a complex one but many consider international rugby the pinnacle but have to perform well in their club system to get picked so that's what they work hard at doing.

Spot on ncurd, I don't know were this supposed attitude towards international rugby comes from. I don't know anyone who would put the club game before England.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Spot on ncurd, I don't know were this supposed attitude towards international rugby comes from. I don't know anyone who would put the club game before England.

Maybe not England, but definitely France. But I don't want to open that can of worms again and have to read essays from Gaston about the French game.

The perception from me and so many South Africans with regard to NH rugby is that there is an over-emphasis on money. It seems like they are trying to go the route of the Barclays Premier League... But it's massively flawed, just look how terrible the English football team does in international competitions.

Once again, it's a perception we see from down here.

To give you guys another example. This past weekend was the Currie Cup Semi-finals. In the match between the Blue Bulls and Western Province there were 28 players combined by both teams that came through the Varsity Cup system. It was 14 players in both teams that came through the junior ranks to play in the Semi-finals of one of the most coveted rugby tournaments in the world. I don't know if we'll see that very soon in any of the NH tournaments, maybe Ireland.

The emphasis down here is on local talent and not trying to stock up our teams with money-hungry stars. We'll rather send them to you guys up north...

 

[smartcooky]

Not sure I know of many fans including season ticket holders if any that put club rugby above international. The clubs and coaches at those clubs do but that's what they are paid to do and their lively hoods depend on it. Administrators aren't really interested in either just money. Players are a complex one but many consider international rugby the pinnacle but have to perform well in their club system to get picked so that's what they work hard at doing.

I was thinking more if the Top 14 situations than Premiership.

 

[McTallshort]

It is just a perception and a flawed one at that. The AP is a sports league with professional clubs as is the football league but otherwise they are utterly different. Unlike the football the AP has very little overseas investment and a much smaller% of overseas players. Wages are comparable to players in the pro 12 (Irish players actually get tax breaks) and there is a working agreement in place with the rfu.

I think we are over thinking this a bit, England got knocked out because of poor selection, Wales because of bad conditioning in the WC camp, Ireland because they fell asleep for 20 minutes and Scotland were only there in the first place because Japan had a 4 day turnaround.

The only NH team with real problems is France but telling a Frenchman he is wrong is impossible so let them sort it out.

 

[smartcooky]

To give you guys another example. This past weekend was the Currie Cup Semi-finals. In the match between the Blue Bulls and Western Province there were 28 players combined by both teams that came through the Varsity Cup system. It was 14 players in both teams that came through the junior ranks to play in the Semi-finals of one of the most coveted rugby tournaments in the world. I don't know if we'll see that very soon in any of the NH tournaments, maybe Ireland.

The emphasis down here is on local talent and not trying to stock up our teams with money-hungry stars. We'll rather send them to you guys up north...

Yep, its the same here for the ITM Cup. Much of the talent has come through the National Secondary Schools First XV Competititons, and/or the age grade rep competititons. Some of the names that kiwi fans here are seeing and reading about this year, will be names that our NH mates will be starting to hear more about in the next couple of years...

Also, I don't care what anyone says; having a lot of foreign non-eligible talent in your domestic competititons MUST affect your international team at least to some extent. I don't buy the flawed argument that local players get better playing and training alongside star players from other countres. It doesn't happen to any extant that it has meaningful positive impact.

There are many reasons why New Zealand seems to have an apparent "talent conveyor belt" with such a limited number of players and such limited resources, while countries in the NH with far more players and far more resources don't seem to be able to replicate it. One of the key ones is that the older players head off to a retirement plan in the NH, and every time one does that, a door opens for a fresh, new young talent like Brad Webber, George Moala, Akira Ioane or Otere Black to step up to the mark. Meanwhile, on the other side of the planet, the arrival of a Conrad Smith or a Ma'a Nonu, or a Colin Slade, closes the door on a potential new talent.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

There is a gap, but it's not quite the chasm some people are suggesting.

The ABs or anyone else would have struggled with the number of injuries to key players that Wales and Ireland suffered. Both were in with a decent shout of the semis with reasonably full strength teams. The Scots came within a whisker of beating many people's favourites and the Rugby Championship winners.

England? Firstly, it's accepted that we're at a fairly early stage of the development cycle (compare our caps to NZ, SA, AUS, WAL, IRE....) and should have a much stronger team come 2019. But there was also a series of own goals in the build up - the ongoing centre and back row selection fiascos, seemingly a cock up in the Colorado fitness camp and then weak on and off field leadership. The good news is that most of this can be fixed relatively easily. We have some some excellent players, many already in the squad. Get the right men in charge and things could start to look a lot more positive very quickly.

The French however really do seem to be in a mess. The international game is poorer for them being in this state.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Yep, its the same here for the ITM Cup. Much of the talent has come through the National Secondary Schools First XV Competititons, and/or the age grade rep competititons. Some of the names that kiwi fans here are seeing and reading about this year, will be names that our NH mates will be starting to hear more about in the next couple of years...

Also, I don't care what anyone says; having a lot of foreign non-eligible talent in your domestic competititons MUST affect your international team at least to some extent. I don't buy the flawed argument that local players get better playing and training alongside star players from other countres. It doesn't happen to any extant that it has meaningful positive impact.

There are many reasons why New Zealand seems to have an apparent "talent conveyor belt" with such a limited number of players and such limited resources, while countries in the NH with far more players and far more resources don't seem to be able to replicate it. One of the key ones is that the older players head off to a retirement plan in the NH, and every time one does that, a door opens for a fresh, new young talent like Brad Webber, George Moala, Akira Ioane or Otere Black to step up to the mark. Meanwhile, on the other side of the planet, the arrival of a Conrad Smith or a Ma'a Nonu, or a Colin Slade, closes the door on a potential new talent.

Yeah, exactly Cooky!

But you and I know that, but it's not us that need the convincing, so it seems it falls onto deaf ears.

If I look at the Blue Bulls for example. They always had a good stockpile of locks, and the last 18 months have become panic stations as we were sitting with a crisis in the Lock dept. Paul Willemse & Flip van der Merwe went to France, Jacques Du Plessis is on his way to France, Victor Matfield is retiring and Grant Hattingh went to Japan. We were very worried of this position because there seemed to be no clear replacements. But luckily, thanx to the Currie Cup we found 3 great Locks so far, 2 of them were part of the Junior Boks.

Another position is centre. Most people know about Jan Serfontein and more recently Jesse Kriel, even though Jesse played fullback for the Bulls this year, but there is another 2 centres that have made people sit up and take notice, Burger Odendaal (some have seen him play in the Super Rugby already) and Dries Swanepoel (who reminds me a lot of Andre Snyman).

The production conveyor belt keeps on producing, even when we think that we might have a problem, and by not having foreigners taking up space, these young guns can get fast tracked the proper way into top rugby. Handre Pollard, Jesse Kriel, Lood De Jager and Etzebeth are all prime examples of that.

 

[FrenchFan]

The only NH team with real problems is France but telling a Frenchman he is wrong is impossible so let them sort it out.

ah yes..Eng got it right. is that why they got knocked out in pool stages and can't win the 6N in last 4 yrs.

 

[McTallshort]

ah yes..Eng got it right. is that why they got knocked out in pool stages and can't win the 6N in last 4 yrs.

How have the last 4 6nations gone for France?

 

[FrenchFan]

How have the last 4 6nations gone for France?

Nowhere. But we know why. I don't get why Eng can't win the 6N and leaves it to Wales and Ireland.

 

[McTallshort]

Like I said, try telling a Frenchman he is wrong....

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Maybe not England, but definitely France. But I don't want to open that can of worms again and have to read essays from Gaston about the French game.

The perception from me and so many South Africans with regard to NH rugby is that there is an over-emphasis on money. It seems like they are trying to go the route of the Barclays Premier League... But it's massively flawed, just look how terrible the English football team does in international competitions.

Once again, it's a perception we see from down here.

To give you guys another example. This past weekend was the Currie Cup Semi-finals. In the match between the Blue Bulls and Western Province there were 28 players combined by both teams that came through the Varsity Cup system. It was 14 players in both teams that came through the junior ranks to play in the Semi-finals of one of the most coveted rugby tournaments in the world. I don't know if we'll see that very soon in any of the NH tournaments, maybe Ireland.

The emphasis down here is on local talent and not trying to stock up our teams with money-hungry stars. We'll rather send them to you guys up north...

You keep talking about the "north" but you're only describing one out of the three leagues - none of it applies to the home nations even remotely.

There were some narrow margins in this world cup between victory and defeat but unfortunately I'm hearing lots of wilfull ignorance from northern posters about the relative state of things.

I agree that england had poor selection issues, wales many injuries and that Scotland were hard done by with the final penalty.

None of this explains why we routinely lose - and we do - to the southern hemisphere teams. Wales have faced Australia with a fully fit squad many times and still lost in their own backyard. How many times now? And I can't remember the last time England fluked a win against South Africa. Let's not talk about New Zealand...


The problem for Wales and the rest of us is not so much that Jonathan Davies was injured(for example) so much as the fact that there wasn't anywhere in wales another player who has equal skills and qualities. HE SHOULD NOT BE IRREPLACEABLE. Worse, England couldn't find an inside centre deemed suitably skilled in 4 years of looking.

Think of it like this. If we took away all coaches from the top international sides for 6 months worth of games and made them play each other, how would it turn out?

Only those teams whose instincts have been properly nurtured would cope, and that's only the southern sides in my book. The point about coaching should be that it embeds the right skills, instincts and mentalities, rather than babysitting players through a game plan to win a one off game as we tend to do in the north.

None of these arguments are new. But to blame our world cups on happenstance is to forget our appalling records against the southern teams.