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Depends on your perspective. Our lot measure it from the top down. So
nhperspective.jpg


However, The kiwis seem to measure it from the bottom up;
kiwiperspective.jpg


Which is always going to lead to arguments.
 
Bullitt said:
Depends on your perspective. Our lot measure it from the top down. So
nhperspective.jpg


However, The kiwis seem to measure it from the bottom up;
kiwiperspective.jpg


Which is wrong
Click to expand...

Haha you made diagrams! Nice.

On the topic, who are you to say what is "wrong"? The way we view things isn't as straight forward as "top down" or "bottom up".
The All Blacks are the most celebrated team in the country, that's a givein.
Then after that we (by in large) are most loyal to ITM cup and Club level teams. Why? quite a few reasons;

The NPC has been around since the 70s. There is real history there, there are established rivalries, heros and villains that can only be built up over a long period of time. The players are homegrown, we get the full spectrum of of players from the young teenage prodigies we have seen coming up from the local school level through to the loyal hometown veterans like Paul ***o and Micheal Johnson.
The players and teams are far more accessible and visible than at super 14 level, You would be hard pushed to find a rugby fan in New Zealand that doesn't personally know an ITM cup player. It all adds to the feeling that the ITM cup teams are actually representing their provinces instead of chasing paychecks.

Club rugby has such a following for much the same reasons. There are clubs older than the All Blacks, there are traditional rivalries, reputations and styles of play that have been around the scene for over a 100 years in some cases (baring in mind how young the country is that's very impressive).The club sides are the ones you sign up to play your first game of rugby for as a kid. Anyone can sign up to play for these clubs, anyone can come down, pull on the same jersey and rub shoulders or play alongside All Blacks and ITM cup players.
The clubs are tight knit communities, you really have to experience it to fully understand. At my club in Wellington for instance, the fullback for the 1st team broke his leg. To stay involved in the club while he was healing he volunteered to coach my colts team (without any sort of pay). Because he was new to coaching, Conrad Smith volunteered to assistant coach. When our halfback was struggling with his pass off the deck, another club member Dave Loveridge drove out to our practices twice a week to work with him one on one.

Its this intense loyalty and involvement at the base level that has kept Rugby strong as New Zealands national sport, not the All Blacks.

Conversely, the Super rugby his no real history to speak of. The franchises they represent just come off as cold, even the name Super rugby just seems fake and tacky. its just too far removed for people to really have any sort of investment in. It also isolates the rural provinces, which is where the bulk of the rugby community is. Its a cool concept to think of combining a bunch of the best players from ITM cup teams, but it loses something in the process. Super rugby doesn't have near the following that the other two tiers do and i don't see that changing any time soon.

So you know what mate? You guys are the ones who have it wrong. At the risk of sounding like a SH WUM, the game is stronger here. Rugby is the number one sport and our teams are successful (except for at the world cup). Maybe the way we have it is right and you NH lads could learn something from us.
 
ranger said:
So you know what mate? You guys are the ones who have it wrong. At the risk of sounding like a SH WUM, the game is stronger here. Rugby is the number one sport and our teams are successful (except for at the world cup). Maybe the way we have it is right and you NH lads could learn something from us.
Click to expand...

Haha cool story! Nice.

Again you make a simple and rather silly assumption that is only happens in NZ rugby and not in NH rugby. I get sick and tired of people and posters like you who go this is where the game is wrong in the NH etc and blah blah blah.

In Wales the same happens, ive been coached by Scarlets / Llanelli players and I know for a fact that they go out and volunteer and work in clubs / schools around.

If you also took a chance to look through, the franchise / regional system in Wales is even newer than the Super Rugby Franchises .... clubs like Neath, Llandovery, Llanelli, Ebbw Vale, Bridgend, Swansea, Pontypridd and Cardiff all have a rich history of rugby and rivalries. There are people there who would be very cross with your narrow minded view. People who follow Pontypridd and Bridgend were pretty ****** off when the Celtic Warriors folded, and now are not interested in supporting the Blues as the region that the clubs sort of fall under now.

SH is not the be all and end all and neither is NH rugby. But a little more respect is needed.
 
Either you spent 2 hours writing that or somethings gone wrong with the board, I changed that line immediately after posting it. Back on topic.

So you're saying to me the level below the ITM is the amateur clubs that any tom, dick or harry can sign up for, yet at the same time convince me that Premiership/Top 14 & ML are only one step up? So you don't know anything about the various league structures here I take it?

I'll tell you now that the "community" element of the bottom level clubs is not better or worse in either. We all know what it's like to be part of a rugby club - Ribbing is part of it, but don't pretend that any one amateur club is better then another just because of where they come from. If you honestly believe that, I think you've missed the point entirely. This isn't an issue for the rugby game anyway.

Also, nobody is disputing that the ABs are top of the tree. But that's only 22 blokes at a time and we've all seen how quickly teams rise then fall from grace.

The difference between the AP/ML/T14 & SR teams is non-existant. the only reason the games are played differently is due to the ground and weather conditions as it is generally colder and wetter here throughout the season. Plus there are other elements such as the season length which have an effect on the approach. The same difference between the pace of a half marathon and a full marathon are adjusted accordingly.

So yes, you do sound like a SH WUM saying that.
 
Cymro said:
Haha cool story! Nice.

Again you make a simple and rather silly assumption that is only happens in NZ rugby and not in NH rugby. I get sick and tired of people and posters like you who go this is where the game is wrong in the NH etc and blah blah blah.

In Wales the same happens, ive been coached by Scarlets / Llanelli players and I know for a fact that they go out and volunteer and work in clubs / schools around.

If you also took a chance to look through, the franchise / regional system in Wales is even newer than the Super Rugby Franchises .... clubs like Neath, Llandovery, Llanelli, Ebbw Vale, Bridgend, Swansea, Pontypridd and Cardiff all have a rich history of rugby and rivalries. There are people there who would be very cross with your narrow minded view. People who follow Pontypridd and Bridgend were pretty ****** off when the Celtic Warriors folded, and now are not interested in supporting the Blues as the region that the clubs sort of fall under now.

SH is not the be all and end all and neither is NH rugby. But a little more respect is needed.
Click to expand...

The assumptions i made were only based on the nifty diagram where Super Rugby should be more important than the ITM cup because its supposed to be a higher level. Thats bullshit, we may look at things "backwards" but whos to say thats wrong.
And what narrow minded view in particular would these people be cross with? Also, posters like me going "this is where the game is wrong"? i was directly responding to someone who had just said "This is how you do things and its wrong".

Bullitt said:
Either you spent 2 hours writing that or somethings gone wrong with the board, I changed that line immediately after posting it. Back on topic.

So you're saying to me the level below the ITM is the amateur clubs that any tom, dick or harry can sign up for, yet at the same time convince me that Premiership/Top 14 & ML are only one step up? So you don't know anything about the various league structures here I take it?

I'll tell you now that the "community" element of the bottom level clubs is not better or worse in either. We all know what it's like to be part of a rugby club - Ribbing is part of it, but don't pretend that any one amateur club is better then another just because of where they come from. If you honestly believe that, I think you've missed the point entirely. This isn't an issue for the rugby game anyway.

Also, nobody is disputing that the ABs are top of the tree. But that's only 22 blokes at a time and we've all seen how quickly teams rise then fall from grace.

The difference between the AP/ML/T14 & SR teams is non-existant. the only reason the games are played differently is due to the ground and weather conditions as it is generally colder and wetter here throughout the season. Plus there are other elements such as the season length which have an effect on the approach. The same difference between the pace of a half marathon and a full marathon are adjusted accordingly.

So yes, you do sound like a SH WUM saying that.
Click to expand...

Or, third possibility, i left the reply tab up while i visited the girlfriend and wrote a reply when i got back.

To your first point, yes sir. They may be amateur clubs, but how much money the players get paid isn't the be all and end all. Also any Tom dick or harry can sign up, which is the beauty of the system, but not any Tom, dick or harry makes the first team. These aren't club sides like they are in the NH where a player might get spotted there and rarely play for them again, the player strength is pretty impressive. Paul ***o notched up over 150 games for his club side, Sinoti Sinoti and Karena Wihongi were signed directly from NZ Club rugby. Its comparable to the All Ireland league was my original point. I also have a couple mates and family friends playing in various competitions around the UK so i think i have a fair idea of how the leagues are structured.

Tell me something, what happens if the majority of the NZ rugby public get there wish and NZ walks out of the Super Rugby deal. We would go back to the ITM cup being the highest level of competition in the country. All the players and all the squads would stay exactly the same. Would you still be trying to tell me that the ITM cup is the same level as the All Ireland league?

I went overboard with the club thing because i didn't want to be accused of giving my opinion without reason behind it.

As for the difference being non existent and down to the weather of all things, have you ever been to Dunedin? There is a reason they named the place after Edinburgh. The All Blacks also seem to score their fair share of points when they play in the NH aswell.

Look this is ridiculous. The moral of the story is Super Rugby isn't that well liked in New Zealand. If it is possible/financially viable it would be great if the countries most popular competition could be included in the rugby game.
 
Bullitt said:
Either you spent 2 hours writing that or somethings gone wrong with the board, I changed that line immediately after posting it. Back on topic.

So you're saying to me the level below the ITM is the amateur clubs that any tom, dick or harry can sign up for, yet at the same time convince me that Premiership/Top 14 & ML are only one step up? So you don't know anything about the various league structures here I take it?

I'll tell you now that the "community" element of the bottom level clubs is not better or worse in either. We all know what it's like to be part of a rugby club - Ribbing is part of it, but don't pretend that any one amateur club is better then another just because of where they come from. If you honestly believe that, I think you've missed the point entirely. This isn't an issue for the rugby game anyway.

Also, nobody is disputing that the ABs are top of the tree. But that's only 22 blokes at a time and we've all seen how quickly teams rise then fall from grace.

The difference between the AP/ML/T14 & SR teams is non-existant. the only reason the games are played differently is due to the ground and weather conditions as it is generally colder and wetter here throughout the season. Plus there are other elements such as the season length which have an effect on the approach. The same difference between the pace of a half marathon and a full marathon are adjusted accordingly.

So yes, you do sound like a SH WUM saying that.
Click to expand...

Again mate could you please review your facts for a while before you post on the forum .
 
New Zealand regions = GP/T14/ML Teams.

If you then put, say Leicester and London Irish together, that would be the equivalent of the Blues.
 
Invictus said:
New Zealand regions = GP/T14/ML Teams.

If you then put, say Leicester and London Irish together, that would be the equivalent of the Blues.
Click to expand...

No the teams the play in the ML GP T14 are the same teams as the ones that play in the HC.
 
Invictus said:
Please explain?
Click to expand...
There are "feeder" clubs that feed into the WPP teams, that are in lower divisons

e.g, you might play for Corus RFC in Port Talbot, then Swansea RFC then Ospreys
or Aberystwyth --> Llanelli --> Scarlets

(i think this is what Cymro means, anyway)
 
Olyy said:
There are "feeder" clubs that feed into the WPP teams, that are in lower divisons

e.g, you might play for Corus RFC in Port Talbot, then Swansea RFC then Ospreys
or Aberystwyth --> Llanelli --> Scarlets

(i think this is what Cymro means, anyway)
Click to expand...

Yes this is it!
 
Invictus said:
Oh I see... Is that the same for England?
Click to expand...
Not particularly,
You'd go from Lichfield RFC --> Leicester Tigers
That's in theory though, it's more likely you'd go to a Championship side (i.e Moseley, or Nottingham) then get signed from there.
Most English players in the Aviva (these days) will have either come through an Aviva clubs academy or been signed from a Championship side, i can't think of any off of the top of my head that have made the leap from Amateur to Professional club
 
In England and France it's virtually identical to the football model: Players get signed up by the top clubs as under-16s and are developed, loaned out to the lower leagues then occasionally brought back or signed as big stars. To make it into the 1st team they normally have to spend a long time in the reserve teams (e.g. Guinness 'A' League) or in the lower divisions. During that time they're usually earning extra income as a coach with their amateur clubs or various community projects to promote the club, therefore justifying a player who's not winning any ball.

While there are no merged franchises in England (they were considered but when pretty much every fan said "you do that an we won't come to watch them" the RFU backed down - a lesson learned from the SRU), the top-flight clubs stick together and compete in multiple competitions, rather then the same players playing under a different banner for each competition.
 
See I think the thing is, because the AP runs the whole season, with HC every few weekends, it's very difficult to compare the NH with the SH.

A player in NZ will have four teams, club (which an All Blacks may appear for once or twice in a season, and would be considered a great occasion), province (which most ABs would get maybe three games for in a season), a franchise (which they would theoretically play all games for) and their country.

I find it hard to believe, however, that one can compare an AP team with a Super Rugby team, when NZ clearly boasts more depth than the likes of England, surely one can conclude that five NZ teams would have more firepower than 12 or so Aviva teams?
 

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