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Wales vs England - 16/03/2013

My main gripes for England:

- Lack of awareness. England had few tries but if you watched replays, we actually developed many try scoring chances with favourable overlaps. It's that the players inside are so used to not looking to the wings that these overlaps are wasted. If the players had been more aware of what was going on around them, we could have been in a very different situation. Hell in the Wales game we presented 2 nice overlaps that we compeltely wasted.

- Lack of support. Says it all really. When players make breaks we don't have people on their shoulder to keep up the pressure and our forwards aren't up fast enough to clear out and keep momentum.

- Poor clearing of the ruck. In the game vs Wales the Welsh would clear the ruck pretty quickly most occassions. The English side in comparison were poor at clearing the ruck and terrible at competing. Part of this was due to Walsh being selective in punishing breakdown infringements but that still doesn't excuse it.

- Inability to react. If we are weak in the scrum then for the love of God don't try to play games in the scrum. Get the ball in and out again as quickly as possible.

Lastly slow line reorganisation. Forwards should not walk back to the line when on the wrong side. Whilst he is on the wrong side there is a gap in the line that can be exploited by a pick and drive as the Welsh did. We need our players back in position ASAP. Most teams do this well when the game is right on their try line which is why teams really struggle to make that last meter. England have become sloppy again with the speed of our forwards reorganising. Granted it's tiring but more tiring is having to then rush further back when the opposing team just battered through the line where that forward should have been.

Got to agree, and on your first point; The backline seem to want to dummy or trick every defender which has led to a huge amount of late passes being smacked back in the tackle when the pass should already have been given.
 
Austin Healey is a complete tool, always have thought that of him. Just seems to have St George's cross-tinted glasses on all the time. One of the few English pundits I believe is biased. His tweets just look ridiculous and embarrassing after that result. He also probably owes quite a lot of money to the Welsh public judging by that first tweet! Love Matt Dawson though, had some great words for both sides after the game.

Also, was impressed with Phil Vickery on Scrum V earlier. I wrote that guy off as a pundit/commentator after his co-commentating in the world cup, which I thought was pretty poor. But he seems to have his head screwed on in a more laid-back atmosphere, like speaking in the aftermath of a game.

He basically talked about how the English players were completely outclassed and will all learn a valuable lesson from the result. One good point he mentioned was that Andy Farrell's inclusion in the Lions setup should now be questioned. He said Shaun Edwards is the best coach he has ever worked with and should, without a doubt, be heading to Australia instead. He posed the question of whether Farrell's inclusion was "political". He has a good point to make here imo, with Edwards' defensive coaching obviously paying off again with Wales - the team having only conceded 3 tries this tournament, and not a single one conceded in the last 4 games. Anyhow, guess there's nothing that can be done now anyway.

Wales were outstanding on Saturday. I'd go so far as to say it's potentially the best, or rather, most complete performance I've ever seen from a Welsh side. Everything just clicked into place and every man played out of their skin. Although England didn't play up to standards I wouldn't be too disheartened if I were an England fan because I do think the team were perhaps over-awed or overwhelmed by an occasion too great for them to handle, and a Welsh team just too powerful and on-a-roll to deal with. I think after the Italy match there was always the possibility of this happening to England.

To England/ English fans - unlucky this time, but the players will learn so much from being destroyed like this in a grand slam decider. It may actually play to their advantage in the long term (towards the 2015 world cup). The coaches will learn too. Hopefully Lancaster has learnt that you can't just keep playing players of past form in the hope they will return to their best (the likes of Ashton, Farrell), or players who are just blatantly not playing well (Goode really stands out here). If I were the England set-up I would be looking to drop Marler, T Youngs, Haskell, B Youngs, Farrell, Barritt, Brown, Goode and Ashton. That's a pretty hefty list, but only because none of them have proved their worth in my opinion. Goode's been terrible and indecisive all tournament, Ashton awful in defence, Brown bad in defence and not enough of a threat, Barritt good in defence but offers little else, Farrell is 100 times less the player Burns is, Youngs is off form still, as to is Haskell. Marler was destroyed in the scrum.

To Wales - a fantastic turnaround in this tournament and a great way to end. Tipuric is an unbelievable force at the moment and long may his form continue. I was quite emotional in the anthem, as other fans have said, and maybe I am too soppy. But when I saw Halfpenny, Roberts and Adam Jones with tears in their eyes I sort of knew something special was about to happen. However, the team should not get too carried away with this result and need to keep their feet firmly on the ground. A lot of work still needs to be done before they attempt challenging the SH teams again. But pleased for the team and I am a proud Welsh fan :) It's not every day your team gets to beat a grand slam-hunting England side by 27 points!
 
A useful character building 'tanking' for England this, although it does`nt feel like it at the mo.
We`ve been here before though, Wales at their zenith win a Grand Slam and that`s their ceiling, England`s ambition is naturally higher.

Don't know whether this is a wind up, but it's sweet that you get thrashed by a team, then immediately say you are in a different league to them (higher, that is). I hope the beating instils humility in the England team, not the arrogance yu display even in humiliating defeat.
 
Don't know whether this is a wind up, but it's sweet that you get thrashed by a team, then immediately say you are in a different league to them (higher, that is). I hope the beating instils humility in the England team, not the arrogance yu display even in humiliating defeat.

Can we please dump this myth? The current England team is not arrogant, they do not need humility instilled into them. Largejanner does not represent the majority of England fans opinions, and just to clear up - neither does the media.
 
Hello guys watched the game 2 times now here are my review of the game for the England performance….

Alex Goode 5/10
His preference to kick and play the aerial game all the time is a little restrictive as I would like to see him run with the ball. With Brown/Foden our full back look dangerous with Goode we just look solid/but nothing special and no threat to opposition. We got to look at changing something here as the whole reason Goode is in the team is due to deficiencies in the centre.

Chris Ashton 4
Ashton tried his heart out but again when he has to play defensively he is to often wondering where he should be and then gets exposed defensively. Sides since Scotland have figured out that playing on his side is a good route to success as Ashtons defensive ability is very average at best. Didn’t give up from trying and kept running trying, but sadly its not enough. SL needs to explore other options.

Manu Tuilagi 5
As I been saying if you shackle manu from any ball and space, manu doesn’t have the game to change. He spilled early pass from set move which someone with good hands and vision might of finished. Exposed for his lack of variety and was given little ball to make his bursts forward.

Brad Barritt 5
Tackled everything in his channel but again like Manu his variety of skill as a centre showed. Manu was shackled and barrit doesn’t have the flowing/passing/creativity game to help England out of a hard game. Defended firmly but SL must look at other options now, manu and barrit seem to similar.

Mike Brown 6
Playing out of position kind of shows in browns game, it’s not his fault he is the best full back we have. Can’t fault his tackling and his commitment at the breakdown he gets “stuck in†but SL must pick him in his right position. England’s most dangerous back. Saved a probable try with tap-tackle on North

Owen Farrell 5
Tactical kicking was fine, defensively not much to fault on. His sarries positioning and coaching helps. He got into great position to cover the tackle on North by brown. But very uncharacteristic penalty kicking was worrying, did the occaision get to him? Did he need a game to get into the groove after missing the Italy game?? Other then that did what he could which was mostly defensively.

Ben Youngs 5
You can only be as good as your forward pack, and with England faulting youngs found it hard to get England moving. He doesn’t have the physicality like Phillips so he can’t go into contact/gaps. Tried to get going but he was overshadowed. Shame. A busy first half but became largely a bystander behind a beaten pack after the break.

Joe Marler 4
I commented before Marler probably find it hard against the top top scrummers in the 6N. Maybe experience, Skill? Maybe strength? not sure. He is young and will get better. Was murdered by Jones but he has to figure out the tricks of the scrum at international level â€"Quick. Looked a little slower in the loose was replaced 5mins in the 2nd​ half SL lost patience in him. Worrying as I am not sure who else other then Mako we have in the tighthead position who can compete at this level.

Tom Youngs 4
Had a hard time in the scrum and Walsh kind of got into his head. Walsh was a little harsh on him but that’s what happens when your on the backfoot. Gave away Halfpenny’s second penalty and saw a couple of line-out throws go astray. But dynamic in the loose but was fighting a losing battle against the wales power game.

Dan Cole 5
Again another who struggled against his opposite number at scrum time and although made his presence felt in the loose, as he acts as another flanker. Lost his discipline which was kind of harsh on him once. But committed as ever

Joe Launchbury 4/5
I said it before when the game is a street fight/physical battle it doesn’t play to his strengths. More worrying was he looked a little average was his injury still causing him concern? Or was it the opposition just didn’t allow him to get going? He is young I expect JL to be a future Lion. Tried his heart out but was subbed.

Geoff Parling 6/7
I love Parling. He continues to amaze me with his CONSISTENCY at this level. Once again made a huge amount of tackles, and tried and tried to get England moving. No shame in his performance he tried his best but was not allowed to do his best and had little support from teammates.

Tom Croft 5
Brought into the team for some firepower in the lineout and some pace going forward. But had little impact of doing so. Could not support Robshaw in the breakdown as he was lacking the quickness of thought and guile. Maybe would have been better to start with Haskell as he is more accustomed to the physicality of the breakdown? Good effort some tackles and carries, but was expecting more.

Chris Robshaw 7
One of England’s best player in the first and 2nd half, just would not let his team die and be battered. Was everywhere and while the team should of taken a look at his commitment and astonishing work-rate in trying to get England moving, they wilted. He met the physical challenge full-on but wasn't supported enough in the breakdown so was left fighting a losing battle. Shame as he made his usual huge tackle/carries count which again makes him so important.

Tom Wood 7
Another combative performance and my England player of the game. Tackled his heart out with astonishing 24 tackles and got subbed before the end as he was out on his feet. He was forced in making the tackles as Robshaw etc were getting outgunned in the breakdown and played almost like a 6 and 8 hybrid. Great defence and work-rate in the mind was willing but his body gave up and was subbed with a slight knock too. Thing is he PROBABLY be a Lion choice as Rowntree said not many flankers can compete with woods all action/work-rate and commitment over 80mins.
 
Great game to watch! England will learn from this though! You don't become a bad team overnight!

Think a few have blown their lions chances though
 
Having a coach picking an inform Michalak really helps you
 
I didn't notice Tuilagi move onto the wing (my head was in my hands for a lot of the second half). It certainly seems that Lancaster wants him there. To be honest, I think it's worth a shot. England only scored one try when Tuilagi returned and it was lucky to be awarded. Against Scotland the ball moved wider earlier, distribution was better, and players ran at gaps.

I certainly don't think it's Tuilagi's fault; whenever he's on England seem to just use him by default and exclusively, "Sod it, give it to Manu and hope." this was particularly evident against Italy when Flood's apparent first instinct was to pass to Manu and use Barritt as a dummy-runner. Cue three Italians blitzing him. As a winger he could be used far better and open up 13 for someone in the mould of BOD or Will Greenwood, i.e. with a good footballing brain, to use the ball (and Tuilagi) far better. He could still be used as a battering ram when needed and we might get to see him one-on-one against fullbacks at the end of overlaps; a situation one would imagine he'd excel in. The use of Vainikolo against Ireland in 2008 is a fine example of what could be done.
 
That is just Austin Healey's sense of humour, I don't know why it would bother you Welsh guys. It is just banter.
 
uhhmmm........YES YOU DO !!!!

When i read that quote by England, i thought a little. You don't become a bad team overnight but every game in the 6 nations we have played we havent really built our attacking play at all.

I get the impression that we think defence is the best form of offence! and as teams have watched us play they see that all they need to do is stop Tuilagi! I think at the moment we are an average team with a lot of average players. We will never progress with some many backs who arn't natural footballers.
 
TOMM WOODDD


theres only oneeeeee TOMM Wood


Tom wood.


TOOOOMMMMM WOOODDDD
 
Therein lies your problem I would suggest, success for you is beating England and winning a yearly second rate NH tournament.
You win a grandslam last year them lose to Samoa in the autumn, it must do your heads in!

England haven't won a Grand Slam in 10 years. Try achieving some success in the 6 nations before you set your sights on the world cup. If the NH tournament is second rate, it's the likes of England are second rate. Wales are first rate.
 
Can we please dump this myth? The current England team is not arrogant, they do not need humility instilled into them. Largejanner does not represent the majority of England fans opinions, and just to clear up - neither does the media.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the England team are arrogant. They aren't. I do think they were surprised at what they found themselves up against, and didn't appear to have a plan B, perhaps cos they didn't think they needed one. But England fans can't dine out on 2003 forever - that was a totally different team and coaching set-up. Wales have ambitions higher than 6 Nations, although we absolutely love the tournament, and (sorry for this) beating England is the most enjoyable victory.
 
You don't become a bad team overnight but every game in the 6 nations we have played we havent really built our attacking play at all.

I get the impression that we think defence is the best form of offence! and as teams have watched us play they see that all they need to do is stop Tuilagi! I think at the moment we are an average team with a lot of average players. We will never progress with some many backs who arn't natural footballers.

You don't say ?! :lol:
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the England team are arrogant. They aren't. I do think they were surprised at what they found themselves up against, and didn't appear to have a plan B, perhaps cos they didn't think they needed one. But England fans can't dine out on 2003 forever - that was a totally different team and coaching set-up.Wales have ambitions higher than 6 Nations, although we absolutely love the tournament, and (sorry for this) beating England is the most enjoyable victory.

To be fair I don't think the vast majority of England fans actually are dining out on 2003 these days. I'm sure most English fans are disappointed with the way their team pretty much imploded through the tournament. I think most England fans are fairly realistic and want players such as Burns, Twelvetrees, May, JSD, Vunipola, and Wade to be starting, but for whatever reason the coaches seem to be turning a blind eye to what the overwhelming majority of the public wants to see.

I also think the game would have been a lot tighter had it been played at Twickenham. Perhaps Wales still would have won the match, but maybe it would not have been quite the same runaway score.

EDIT: what I mean by this is that quite a few of those England players had never played in the Millennium before, and it was probably one of the most intimidating atmospheres I have ever seen in a match. It was electric. I just wonder if the players were slightly overwhelmed by it all and that may have contributed to how they played.
 
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To be fair I don't think the vast majority of England fans actually are dining out on 2003 these days. I'm sure most English fans are disappointed with the way their team pretty much imploded through the tournament. I think most England fans are fairly realistic and want players such as Burns, Twelvetrees, May, JSD, Vunipola, and Wade to be starting, but for whatever reason the coaches seem to be turning a blind eye to what the overwhelming majority of the public wants to see.

I also think the game would have been a lot tighter had it been played at Twickenham. Perhaps Wales still would have won the match, but maybe it would not have been quite the same runaway score.

EDIT: what I mean by this is that quite a few of those England players had never played in the Millennium before, and it was probably one of the most intimidating atmospheres I have ever seen in a match. It was electric. I just wonder if the players were slightly overwhelmed by it all and that may have contributed to how they played.

Thank god, someone talking sense about English fans :) . Just because a few of us are stuck in the days of Richard Hill and Martin Johnson doesn't mean the rest of us assume that England have a divine right to win games.

On a more interesting note according to the BBC Alex Goode gained the most meters ball in hand of any player in the tournament. He may look like me doesn't know what to do going forwards but clearly he was doing something right.


  • Alex Goode (Eng) 387
  • Louis Picamoles (Fra) 351
  • Mike Brown (Eng) 347
  • Stuart Hogg (Sco) 336
  • Yoann Huget (Fra) 288

Of course the fact that England have two of the top five runners in terms of meters gained and still scored so few tries might, for some, be proof that we need some better backs.
 
Teams were purposely kicking at Goode because they knew he offered no threat running it back. Especially Wales, it worked.
 
Anyone spot the incident when Ashton was stomping on Jamie Roberts in the ruck, and AW Jones pushed him and he dived away appealing to the ref in mid flight? He has some class, Ashton, I realised that when he used to do a floating dive over the line with a ball for a try from a the a midfielder who'd done all the hard work and passed to him. Class. Of course, haven't seen him doing his try dive for some time now. I suppose you're right - 2003 has faded from most fans' memory now. Thise were the days when England were heavily forward oriented. I think England play best when the forwards dominate the game plan. You have some great backs in the premiership, but the ball rarely comes out of the ruck for you, and when it does, it doesn't get beyond the inside centre. I think Wales are over-estimating quite how good our forwards are because they haven't been much challenged this 6N. And that's not good for us.
 
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