Wales: How do we turn this around?

[Ospreylian]

So I've had a few days to digest that Ireland game, and there's a few things I believe Wales need to do in order to turn things around:

- Firstly, Tipuric has to start. I can't keep track of how many times I've posted that statement on the forum since I joined, but it's beyond a joke now. Warburton was silenced on Saturday, probably due to his lack of match fitness. Tipuric has had another good season and has too much natural talent and class to be playing from the bench. Unfortunately, I think Sam should be dropped to the bench. Same goes for Lydiate, who hasn't had a particularly amazing game for Wales for quite some time.

- The half-back pairing needs altering, in some way. Now this is tricky, because Wales have a distinct lack of in-form scrum-halves. I believe Philips should be dropped for his slow delivery from rucks and getting caught around the fringes, but replacing him with Webb is risky - he didn't have a great time against Italy. I think Webb has had a good season for Ospreys, but international duty is a different kettle of fish. It's at times like these I wish Tavis Knoyle had been shown far more time and attention in his development - if he was given the chance in the jersey more frequently I think we would have had a good safety net for Philips by now. But then again, he seems to be another player Gatland and Howley are not in favour of. Biggar or Hook should start, Priestland has been mostly disastrous. What have Wales got to lose?

- No more of this kicking in-field and waiting for their mistakes nonsense. Both Priestland and Halfpenny gave away far too much potential counter-attacking ball and instead opted to send the ball down-field aimlessly. If they want to try the up-and-unders, they need chasers. Ireland had at least 2 chasers for each in-field kick.

- The forwards need to take a long, hard look at themselves. Coombs, Hibbard, and Faletau have played out of their skin all tournament, but I don't think the same can be said for any of the others. The scrum has been erratic, and I don't even know where to begin with the line-out, although I don't think this is a problem with Hibbard.

So my team for the France game would look something like this:

Jenkins, Hibbard, A Jones, AWJ (C), Charteris, Coombs, Tipuric, Faletau; Webb, Biggar, North, Roberts, S Williams (if fit), Cuthbert, Halfpenny

Bench: James, Owens, Lee, Ball, Warburton, Philips, Hook, L Williams/ J Davies (if fit)


Interested to hear what others feel would be the best course of action for Gatland and his men for the remainder of the championship...

 

[Big Ewis]

well I'd say the first and most important thing Wales needs to do, and this is very important, is not to "turn this around" against France. After that match though, I think it's imperative Wales find their form again and start beating teams badly as we all know they can.

 

[French TommyGun]

well I'd say the first and most important thing Wales needs to do, and this is very important, is not to "turn this around" against France. After that match though, I think it's imperative Wales find their form again and start beating teams badly as we all know they can.

I second this motion! Very strongly! Especially the 1st bit, then followed by the 2nd bit!

 

[Big Ewis]

I second this motion! Very strongly! Especially the 1st bit, then followed by the 2nd bit!

man he's going to return to his thread, eagerly, seeing there's been a number of replies, all excited only to find a couple of frenchies peed in it a little

Oh and yeah, the Welsh forwards definitely need to step it up. Honestly though this same exact Welsh squad has been through Hell and Heaven all within the span of a few months a few times. They can click and roll over everybody, it just takes one match and then it's set. But they really looked lethargic, without any intent or will to compete last weekend...that'll change.
If France shows up and Wales decide they wanna play too, this can be a huge one but looking at our past 2 meetings it's usually a very grind-it-out type of game with little sparkle...

 

[FrenchFan]

So I've had a few days to digest that Ireland game, and there's a few things I believe Wales need to do in order to turn things around:

- Firstly, Tipuric has to start. I can't keep track of how many times I've posted that statement on the forum since I joined, but it's beyond a joke now. Warburton was silenced on Saturday, probably due to his lack of match fitness. Tipuric has had another good season and has too much natural talent and class to be playing from the bench. Unfortunately, I think Sam should be dropped to the bench. Same goes for Lydiate, who hasn't had a particularly amazing game for Wales for quite some time.

- The half-back pairing needs altering, in some way. Now this is tricky, because Wales have a distinct lack of in-form scrum-halves. I believe Philips should be dropped for his slow delivery from rucks and getting caught around the fringes, but replacing him with Webb is risky - he didn't have a great time against Italy. I think Webb has had a good season for Ospreys, but international duty is a different kettle of fish. It's at times like these I wish Tavis Knoyle had been shown far more time and attention in his development - if he was given the chance in the jersey more frequently I think we would have had a good safety net for Philips by now. But then again, he seems to be another player Gatland and Howley are not in favour of. Biggar or Hook should start, Priestland has been mostly disastrous. What have Wales got to lose?

- No more of this kicking in-field and waiting for their mistakes nonsense. Both Priestland and Halfpenny gave away far too much potential counter-attacking ball and instead opted to send the ball down-field aimlessly. If they want to try the up-and-unders, they need chasers. Ireland had at least 2 chasers for each in-field kick.

- The forwards need to take a long, hard look at themselves. Coombs, Hibbard, and Faletau have played out of their skin all tournament, but I don't think the same can be said for any of the others. The scrum has been erratic, and I don't even know where to begin with the line-out, although I don't think this is a problem with Hibbard.

So my team for the France game would look something like this:

Jenkins, Hibbard, A Jones, AWJ (C), Charteris, Coombs, Tipuric, Faletau; Webb, Biggar, North, Roberts, S Williams (if fit), Cuthbert, Halfpenny

Bench: James, Owens, Lee, Ball, Warburton, Philips, Hook, L Williams/ J Davies (if fit)


Interested to hear what others feel would be the best course of action for Gatland and his men for the remainder of the championship...

no worries...take a deep breath..now, the next upcoming round of Top14 will take care of it for you and soften our frenchies to ensure les bleus are just about dysfunctional for Wales to win, no need to make any changes to your side

 

[Big Ewis]

well the Welsh players are returning to club duties too apparently...good to know there's some sort of parity.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think a problem with the Welsh team is thinking that you can simply batter through any defence. It has worked a fair few times but the Irish were prepared. Wales didn't offer enough variety so the Irish knew all they had to do was get enough people into the tackles and breakdown to stop the Welsh simply charging through their defence and they'd be stuck.

 

[munstermuffin]

1 bad game doesn't make Wales bad but they have to be careful not to follow mistakes of Ireland and be too dependant on guys then when they are spent realize there is no depth in that area. Also they need to develop a plan B and C

 

[McTallshort]

Dont panic

 

[j'nuh]

It's hard for this kind of thing to happen mid-tournament. When England were hammered by Wales last 6N, the coaches had a very long time to reflect on it and decide the way forward. Really, time and distance does help in recovering from these kind of games. We talked at length about how exposed we were in the breakdown... we spent the summer looking at "genuine 7s"... and now, a year on, we're back with Wood and Robshaw. And for good reason to be honest.

Some changes did have to be made, but this England side is still very reminiscent of the England side last year. Some of the differences are forced, some of the differences are because of form changes and some are because of a change in way of thinking.

Really, I don't think all that much needs to change. I'd stick with a very similar side to what appeared against Ireland. However, I do feel that this has exposed a facet of Gatland's Wales that should be under a lot of scrutiny - the idea of "Gatland's favourites". Rushing Warburton back is certainly a big hint of it.

Time and again, Gatland sticks by underperforming players from the 2011 World Cup team. Priestland, Lydiate, Warburton, Phillips, Roberts etc. I think his feeling is that he trusts them to come good. And if such a strong, young squad made it to the 2011 WC semis and probably deserved a final. Four more years to that young side, and what can be achieved then?

The problem with this thinking is that year-on-year, more of that original squad will come out of form. You can carry one or two out-of-form players, but if you aren't continually reacting to form, the squad eventually goes stale. Despite some good wins over the last couple of years, I'd argue that Wales haven't quite played as consistently well since the 2011 World Cup.

I'd have liked/would like to see more of A. Shingler, Ball, Lee, Biggar, Tipuric, Beck, Walker, Dirksen, Byrne even. Try and give some of the established players some rivals.

 

[Peat]

Short term or long term? I mean, short term, the guys who've just returned from injuries will have a bit more gametime, that result will have massively cleared any mental fatigue and you've still got a gameplan that has hockeyed most of the 6N with all the personnel to do it except maybe front row.

Long term, long term I don't know how but I feel you've always needed to change, the plan and personnel don't seem up to beating the 3N and that was before time and law changes caught up with Adam Jones, meanwhile Ireland have stepped up massively, England are building slowly and France have the potential. Wales need to find more options in how they execute play and, to hang in with the best, I think they need more and better decision makers. A better bench wouldn't hurt either.

Personally, if I was Gatland with a collection of lock sized wings, I'd be working very hard on their aerial skills to make the cross-field kick/bomb far more dangerous.

 

[Big Ewis]

yeah but they can't start changing NOW. They've selected all those players so consistently, and those are the same ones as you've said who've hammered England and won a second straight ***le. But they've been a highly unstable side, but not like France which can be great and then awful in a week's time, Wales have done it by large periods.
I mean 8 straight losses and a tournament win in 2013, the Lions Tour...

I don't think we can just say Gatland ball is dead now, it's been exposed, game over, let's look for smt else and forget about everything. The RWC is in a year and maybe they can experiment like France has been doing with a select few players, but there's no way obviously they should change more than that, and God forbid the idea of changing the culture of the team.
Not too many teams will be able to contain Wales' power like Ireland has on that day. Play Wales against Ireland in Cardiff next week, and maybe Wales put 30 on Ireland themselves. It's just one match, just one match.

As for plan B's and C's, are there really such things ? Aren't all teams conditioned/bound to play the one style they've been instilled ? How can Wales not play power Rugby ? What's a realistic, sustainable-for-a-whole-match approach at such a high level of int'l 6N Rugby ? you want to see Wales play like the Wallabies ? You want Wales to be clinical-forwards ruck-ruck-ruck like England ?

 

[smartcooky]

Wales are too one-dimensional. Rageranger's comments about battering through the defence are right on the money, its just about impossible to do that at the top levels of the game, because defences are too well organised, especially around the rucks & mauls.

What happened to the Wales that used to be one of the most expansive teams in Europe...the one that regularly got the ball wide quickly...the one that stormed to the ***le in 2013 by comprehensively smashing England 30-3 on the final weekend?

 

[dullonien]

So I've had a few days to digest that Ireland game, and there's a few things I believe Wales need to do in order to turn things around:

- Firstly, Tipuric has to start. I can't keep track of how many times I've posted that statement on the forum since I joined, but it's beyond a joke now. Warburton was silenced on Saturday, probably due to his lack of match fitness. Tipuric has had another good season and has too much natural talent and class to be playing from the bench. Unfortunately, I think Sam should be dropped to the bench. Same goes for Lydiate, who hasn't had a particularly amazing game for Wales for quite some time.

Agree that Tipuric should start on the basis of form. However it has to be said that Tips was also quiet against Italy. The big problem is that the forwards as a unit aren't playing well, so singling out anyone in particular is a little unfair.

- The half-back pairing needs altering, in some way. Now this is tricky, because Wales have a distinct lack of in-form scrum-halves. I believe Philips should be dropped for his slow delivery from rucks and getting caught around the fringes, but replacing him with Webb is risky - he didn't have a great time against Italy. I think Webb has had a good season for Ospreys, but international duty is a different kettle of fish. It's at times like these I wish Tavis Knoyle had been shown far more time and attention in his development - if he was given the chance in the jersey more frequently I think we would have had a good safety net for Philips by now. But then again, he seems to be another player Gatland and Howley are not in favour of. Biggar or Hook should start, Priestland has been mostly disastrous. What have Wales got to lose?

I thought Priestland had an OK game against Ireland. He put in some decent clearance kicks to touch, and found good distance on his penalty kicks to touch. Unfortunately the Welsh lineout couldn't take advantage. Saying that, Biggar would have better suited the Ireland game imo, and I'd still have him as Wales' starting 10. Also Sexton gave Priestland a lesson in his tactical kicking, but I don't think Biggar or Hook's tactical kicking game is comparable to the display Sexton put in either. Similarly I thought Phillips was OK as well, other than his stupid moaning that is. I normally try to refrain from criticising halfbacks in a game where the forwards have been second best by some distance, there's very little Philips of Priestland could have done to alter the course of the match when they are being supplied poor ball on the back foot.

- No more of this kicking in-field and waiting for their mistakes nonsense. Both Priestland and Halfpenny gave away far too much potential counter-attacking ball and instead opted to send the ball down-field aimlessly. If they want to try the up-and-unders, they need chasers. Ireland had at least 2 chasers for each in-field kick.

Agree. Our kicking game needs tweaking. There are times when kicking long makes sense, but there needs to be variety in our kicking game.

- The forwards need to take a long, hard look at themselves. Coombs, Hibbard, and Faletau have played out of their skin all tournament, but I don't think the same can be said for any of the others. The scrum has been erratic, and I don't even know where to begin with the line-out, although I don't think this is a problem with Hibbard.

I don't question Hibbard's appetite and effort, however he had a distinctly poor game against Ireland. He spilt ball going forwards, and was part of a lineout that was a real mess. Ken Owens appeared to stabilise the lineout somewhat when he came on, so I do think a big part of the problem on Saturday lay at Hibbards feet. There was also a communication breakdown as well.

Faletau did some good things, but he too lost the ball going forwards. A no. 8 shouldn't be just pushed out into touch with one hand.

Coombs did a couple of good runs, but I think he was lacking in other areas, especially in the tight and in the lineout.

 

[Big Ewis]

Wales are too one-dimensional. Rageranger's comments about battering through the defence are right on the money, its just about impossible to do that at the top levels of the game, because defences are too well organised, especially around the rucks & mauls.

well England are as one-dimensional as it gets, and they've had good results the last couple of years doing that. There's the occasional Tuilagi break, but he's been out and their gameplan has worked on everyone. Their waves of forwards thrown at the defense, constantly, throughout the 80'; you don't just figure it out and stop it, you just contain it as best you can and hope to counter but the point is it's there, we all see it clear as ever but won't necessarily stop it. It's worked on NZ, France, Scotland as of late, they always get in the opposite 22 doing just that.

As Gatland himself has said:
"People want to be critical and say it was the same and where is your Plan B? Well, we didn't even execute Plan A (against Ireland)."
"If you get those things wrong in terms of where we were dominated, Plan A, B or Z wouldn't have made any difference to the result. We just weren't good enough on the day."

It didn't work for Wales, and it worked for Ireland *THAT DAY*. They'll have a chance again to play a good 80' against France, that's all.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Wales are too one-dimensional. Rageranger's comments about battering through the defence are right on the money, its just about impossible to do that at the top levels of the game, because defences are too well organised, especially around the rucks & mauls.

What happened to the Wales that used to be one of the most expansive teams in Europe...the one that regularly got the ball wide quickly...the one that stormed to the ***le in 2013 by comprehensively smashing England 30-3 on the final weekend?

You're bringing two different era's together here. The Expansive Wales years were year ago, the years around the 2005 Grand Slam standing out to my memory... last year when we got bummed by them they were on top in most areas of the field... the tries they scored however to my memory were scintillating counter-attacks. We weren't overwhelmed by expansive rugby. Expansive rugby in and of itself is not hard-wired into their game plan and hasn't been for years as far as I can see.

well England are as one-dimensional as it gets, and they've had good results the last couple of years doing that. There's the occasional Tuilagi break, but he's been out and their gameplan has worked on everyone. Their waves of forwards thrown at the defense, constantly, throughout the 80'; you don't just figure it out and stop it, you just contain it as best you can and hope to counter but the point is it's there, we all see it clear as ever but won't necessarily stop it. It's worked on NZ, France, Scotland as of late, they always get in the opposite 22 doing just that.

As Gatland himself has said:
"People want to be critical and say it was the same and where is your Plan B? Well, we didn't even execute Plan A (against Ireland)."
"If you get those things wrong in terms of where we were dominated, Plan A, B or Z wouldn't have made any difference to the result. We just weren't good enough on the day."

It didn't work for Wales, and it worked for Ireland *THAT DAY*. They'll have a chance again to play a good 80' against France, that's all.

Same old rubbish from you, different day. You are seemingly incapable of watching a team without projecting your prior stereotypes onto it. England have hold of some enterprising backs and the most mobile, least stereotypable packs - yet you endlessly push this utter ******** about 'Mass' like a 12 year old child.

"Ireland are not usually good at the breakdown" "England rely on pure strength". Complete and utter ****e and you never listen to reason either, which is arguably worse.
Complete clown.

 

[Big Ewis]

Same old rubbish from you, different day. You are seemingly incapable of watching a team without projecting your prior stereotypes onto it. England have hold of some enterprising backs and the most mobile, least stereotypable packs - yet you endlessly push this utter ******** about 'Mass' like a 12 year old child.

"Ireland are not usually good at the breakdown" "England rely on pure strength". Complete and utter ****e and you never listen to reason either, which is arguably worse.
Complete clown.

...well that was unexpected !

 

[TRF_Olyy]

[...]

I think it's easier to just ignore Big Ewis at this point. He's clearly never watched England play rugby, despite how much he chirps on about us.
I'd question whether he watches any side other than France play, considering the tired, worn out, stereotypes he spouts about every nation.

 

[Big Ewis]

I think it's easier to just ignore Big Ewis at this point. He's clearly never watched England play rugby, despite how much he chirps on about us.
I'd question whether he watches any side other than France play, considering the tired, worn out, stereotypes he spouts about every nation.

now come on man. I'm being nice at this point, but there's a limit. England aren't one-dimensional ? Their main attack isn't wave upon wave upon wave of massive forwards gaining ground with each ruck, throwing themselves at the defense ? Well it's true as of late (esp. the France game) they've had a lot more inclusion of their backline, those new guys are really adding to their attack. But a reference match, ENG NZ 2013, is all about that.

And don't get mad, man. Yes I exaggerate sometimes but it's only because I look at the bigger picture. England IS massive players with high work rate, a whole lot of rucking and forward play, tactical kicking from the 10, pressuring the opponents for penalties, big defense moving up very fast...and when he was there, the occasional break from Tuilagi (2012-2013) and not a whole lot of interesting movements on attack, but it's better now like I said the backs seem to be included more.

 

[Amiga500]

Wales: How do we turn this around?

No matter how big you are, running into 2 or 3 men is not going to normally result in linebreaks. That is all we seen on Sat. Big men charging into a green line and getting absorbed by two or three who then either (a)evacuated the ruck and got back into the line or (b)made a turnover...


Obviously, developing 1 v 1 for widemen in space is the aim of any team. But the Welsh did nothing to move the point of attack around and stretch the defensive line from both ends*. It was just a shambolic 1-out truck it up most of the time.


Halfpenny is a decent passer, as is Priestland - and any of the 3/4 line are big enough to act as linebreaking 1st centres [if that line is suitably stretched] - so they need to move the ball both ways across the pitch by using both 10/15 as passers to the big runners, not just 1 direction till the touchline then back.