Top 14 Day 4

[Big Ewis]

Yep Wisniewski ran the show he was excellent. Here is a guy that should slot in behind FTD for the next AI.

I agree with that. Best two flyhalves around with Giteau for me, and Flood not far (still needs a bit of accustoming). Funny how they're neither of the 10's PSA picks well, not that funny really...:cryy:

Yes you are right Grenoble started strongly again this season, but this changing of clubs every other week seems to have affected your memory, B. E.!!!!
For the last 2 seasons Grenoble were in the top 6 just up to about Jan then injuries, not enough depth in the squad, fatigue, started to play its part and low and behold they just squeezed themselves out of relegation, this could well happen again.All the lower classed teams try and start strong as they know that this will happen to most, and points gained now are points that nobody can take away later, but later it is a hell of a lot tougher for the smaller clubs than the present moment. The teams that will finish in the TOP 6 have other problems at the begining of the season, key players coming back from tours either injured or just tired, massive influx of new players and getting the plays right for multi language speakers, the difference between South and North Hemp.type of play a few reasons why sometimes not all the big clubs start the season on fire , but look what happens to them after Jan when they are at their most competitive!!!!!

relevance, relevance gastonaille ! At least a little bit of it, I ask, not much !! My memory is just fine and changing colors still gets me stiff, thank you wary mashed. I've only said a couple of posters here have underestimated Grenoble quite largely, who are at home and against a depth-lacking modest club that's only just hatched out of Pro D2 ! Warning, Grenoble can really play, and they sting a bit more at home. That's my message. I'm not saying they're going to beat Toulon for the no. 1 spot in time for the playoffs.

And with the last bit I see you're making an argument for your very own Montypellier ! Yes they're coming off a fantastic win in the volcano (although it should be said it's been asleep, asleep for a while now.....) but also some sub-par performances too...(one of which, to very Grenoble in fact).

Since this topic is on the barbecue grill now: I don't think Grenoble will make the Top 6. Right now I've got:
Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont, Montypellier, (Free)Macing Retro 29, Castres.

Same as last year, now that I lay it out clean. But this is just as of Day 3, it means nothing. Like everybody else speculating, I think Bordeaux can squeeze in, but they haven't shown a whole lot to convince they can so far, in fact Grenoble have impressed a lot more and are clearly the better team so far.
Castres will come right back, but Sivivatu out is really the bummer they couldn't afford...
Stade Francique just aren't convincing so far, remember their Day 1 victory against Castres, Castres wasn't really at home at all.

I was just pulling your leg but you know that. I was thinking, when French Fan was mentioning the teams you move between; Toulouse, MHR and Castres.. I see them as the most 'French' teams if that makes sense. I mean, RM92 for me, Toulon was mentioned by ImScotty in the other thread as a team he'd purchase, those are teams very accessable to foreigners but those other 3- very 'loveable' teams mind you- seem very much critical to actual French (as opposed to global-) rugby.

no actually I didn't get it as it happened, thought you were srs, I'm not familiar with your knowledge of Top 14, sorry for thinking you were serious ! get it now

MP aren't all that French, they're very int'l flavored. I'd say right now Toulouse, Paris, Clermont...and believe it or not but Toulon although it's ironic. They produce good players out of their academies (Chiocci, Fresia, Bruni, Orioli..) and have hired some good French talent they actually do play in Mermoz, Bastareaud, Menini, Guirrado, Romain Taofifenua, Tilous-Bordes, Barcela, Suta, Escande...even Michalak

 

[gaston le gaff]

Quote B E Since this topic is on the barbecue grill now: I don't think Grenoble will make the Top 6. Right now I've got:
Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont, Montypellier, (Free)Macing Retro 29, Castres.

Same as last year, now that I lay it out clean. But this is just as of Day 3, it means nothing. Like everybody else speculating.3

i am nearly going to have to agree with you, BUT Castres this season i have my doubts, but the problem who to replace them with Bordeaux maybe but i shall take time out to think about my 6th TOP 6

 

[Big Ewis]

i am nearly going to have to agree with you,

dear God what has this all come to...

 

[FrenchFan]

I agree with that. Best two flyhalves around with Giteau for me, and Flood not far (still needs a bit of accustoming). Funny how they're neither of the 10's PSA picks well, not that funny really...:cryy:

FTD will be back for the AI unless injured.

Since this topic is on the barbecue grill now: I don't think Grenoble will make the Top 6. Right now I've got:
Toulon, Toulouse, Clermont, Montypellier, (Free)Macing Retro 29, Castres.

Toulon, Clermont, Montpellier, Racing, Castres, Grenoble. Hey this is a big statement for me to leave out my club out of the top 6. When was the last time we didn't make the last 6? i think i wasn't born

 

[gaston le gaff]

don't get too excited it will not happen often, just would not be fun if we both agreed with each other, "you lousy turncoat"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FrenchFan]

.and believe it or not but Toulon although it's ironic. They produce good players out of their academies (Chiocci, Fresia, Bruni, Orioli..) and have hired some good French talent they actually do play in Mermoz, Bastareaud, Menini, Guirrado, Romain Taofifenua, Tilous-Bordes, Barcela, Suta, Escande...even Michalak

this is true. Toulon have an excellent academy, they have produced many top players, Fickou and Maestri are both Toulonnais believe or not. Maestri came out of the Toulon academy.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

this is true. Toulon have an excellent academy, they have produced many top players, Fickou and Maestri are both Toulonnais believe or not. Maestri came out of the Toulon academy.

yeah, as ewis pointed out this is hard to believe and if they did why do they need the foreign players ?

 

[FrenchFan]

Warning, Grenoble can really play, and they sting a bit more at home. That's my message. I'm not saying they're going to beat Toulon for the no. 1 spot in time for the playoffs.

yep i think Grenoble are going to surprise many. But like Gaston pointed out they might struggle after the winter. Their pre-season prep with 2 games agst Argentina was impressive. They are expertly coached by Landreau who is developping into a great coach. But I think they will lack depth to last the full run.

 

[FrenchFan]

yeah, as ewis pointed out this is hard to believe and if they did why do they need the foreign players ?

It's down to their president and the business and sporting modele he is following. They probably have had the 2nd best academy in the country for a while. We have the budget to go the Toulon way but Bouscatel is not Boudjelal and he won't allow the club to follow Toulon's way.
We have a different model of 1/3 academy 1/3 foreign 1/3 internationals which has worked brilliantly but this is under threat more than ever with the stupidity of the agreement btw the clubs and FFR (the 30 Elite group I've been ranting about). It's forced Toulouse to go after a foreign star where they might have gone for a French player a few years ago in order to circumvent the effect of the agreement.
This agreement is already impacting on the Top 14, did you find actual comments from a coach or a player that said it was good? i have not.

If it is not rescinded after the WC it will increase the influx of foreigners in our league. But the biggest irony is it will backfire on the national side in the end.

 

[Big Ewis]

It's down to their president and the business and sporting modele he is following. They probably have had the 2nd best academy in the country for a while. We have the budget to go the Toulon way but Bouscatel is not Boudjelal and he won't allow the club to follow Toulon's way.
We have a different model of 1/3 academy 1/3 foreign 1/3 internationals which has worked brilliantly but this is under threat more than ever with the stupidity of the agreement btw the clubs and FFR (the 30 Elite group I've been ranting about). It's forced Toulouse to go after a foreign star where they might have gone for a French player a few years ago in order to circumvent the effect of the agreement.
This agreement is already impacting on the Top 14, did you find actual comments from a coach or a player that said it was good? i have not.

If it is not rescinded after the WC it will increase the influx of foreigners in our league. But the biggest irony is it will backfire on the national side in the end.

Vincent Clerc, here's a thread I started about it before you joined the forum:
http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...rds-FFR-LNR-agreement?highlight=vincent+clerc


Eh ouais, betrayed and stopped in your momentum by your very own Vinscenté Clerico, the great Italian stallion (check the internal rhyme there, mmm hmm). You see, while you were checking out pictures of Assa Koita online, some were doing their homework...-_-

Of course, that's purely from a player's point of view, i.e. in regards to the physical dimension of the calendar/agreement. No need to again go through how terrible the deal is when it comes to clubs, recruiting and coaches...we know, and nobody disagrees.

don't get too excited it will not happen often, just would not be fun if we both agreed with each other, "you lousy turncoat"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that's strange...there seems to have been an absolute epidemic of the word "turncoat" here lately...hmmm......??..

 

[gaston le gaff]

Just stating the obvious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[FrenchFan]

Vincent Clerc, here's a thread I started about it before you joined the forum:
http://www.therugbyforum.com/thread...rds-FFR-LNR-agreement?highlight=vincent+clerc


Eh ouais, betrayed and stopped in your momentum by your very own Vinscenté Clerico, the great Italian stallion (check the internal rhyme there, mmm hmm). You see, while you were checking out pictures of Assa Koita online, some were doing their homework...-_-

Of course, that's purely from a player's point of view, i.e. in regards to the physical dimension of the calendar/agreement. No need to again go through how terrible the deal is when it comes to clubs, recruiting and coaches...we know, and nobody disagrees.



that's strange...there seems to have been an absolute epidemic of the word "turncoat" here lately...hmmm......??..

But that comment was made way back last year BEFORE the agreement was introduced in the Top 14 . Vincent hadn't even given 2 thoughts about how stupid and impractical it all is for coaches and players alike. Now the season is underway many are begining to look at it for what it is : a load of bollix. And in the end, if you think that 30 game limit is going to fix the coaching disaster for les Bleus, you might as well believe in Pere Noel...:lol:

 

[gaston le gaff]

After serious thought (thats a laugh already) the 30 match club will not fix the coaching problem of France but it will do the players no harm and they will hopefully get to the Internationals and the 6 Nations not absolutely fu****. This will be a problem for coaches and clubs but they may also learn from it that by managing players better, you will get the best out of them. I am not in total agreement with it all but i think you have to look at it also from a players perspective, this is not Bollix as French Fan mentioned but a possible chance of giving the players the amount of rest time they all need. The French National team will have fresh players still coached by idiots but at least they will not arrive knackered, and perform better than in the past. I did say i was not in agreement with it all before the massacre starts!!!!!!!!!

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

1 RCT
2 ASM Clermont
3 RM92
4 MHR
5 Castres
6 Paris

 

[Big Ewis]

But that comment was made way back last year BEFORE the agreement was introduced in the Top 14 . Vincent hadn't even given 2 thoughts about how stupid and impractical it all is for coaches and players alike. Now the season is underway many are begining to look at it for what it is : a load of bollix. And in the end, if you think that 30 game limit is going to fix the coaching disaster for les Bleus, you might as well believe in Pere Noel...:lol:

didn't say or imply any of that on this thread. And there's no denying the absolute truth that Vinscenté Clerico is extending:
clearly the bodies tire, statistically you're more inclined to be injured if you play more. The more you play, the more prone to injury you are - that is how it happens. Obviously the Top 14 (+H Cup for the players, don't forget) is the longest and most arduous season that exists on Earth atm and is the only league that has its clubs struggling to play on both ends (own league, and either European cup).
France is the nation whose players you see complain the most about playing too much. You only hear about us and our clubs when it's "oh, they put out a bad team in the European Challenge Cup..." - "oh they just couldn't play on both fronts, with the H Cup as well, so will focus on their own league..." - or even within the Top 14: "oh Clermont was just way exhausted by the time the calendar hit Top 14 playoffs..." - or international: "our guys play way too much, weren't fresh at all and are nursing injuries".
Nicolas Mas, I repeat, was actually removed from the 23 entirely (in Aus last summer) because of, I quote, "fatigue généralisée", a general state of profound fatigue.

I appoint you FF to this same, redundant place: our guys do play way too much - "too much" meaning, to a point that isn't viable anymore for the human body and mind; a point that is not sustainable, or positive, or logical to pursue. And the vast majority of the matches and mental strain occur in the Top 14 for the players, not at Test Rugby level.

Here, I've only stated fact, and interpreted and concluded objectively on what's been said during the last two years. I'm not offering subjective thought on the 30-match solution or entire LNR-FFR agreement whatsoever, nor am I concluding it is the way to go. But something definitely NEEDED to be done, and this was the most direct way of addressing the freshness issue.
Of course, the French Rugby chessboard is so complex today with so many heterogeneous interests intertwined forming a spiderweb battlefield, any smallest decision on one end will influence greatly on another corner of the spectrum.
It should be said, I've forgotten how the English protect their players and although they only have 12 teams they're not that far off from us and are doing quite well (many injuries too, though...).


EDIT:

1 RCT
2 ASM Clermont
3 RM92
4 MHR
5 Castres
6 Paris

not bad, storming one...I do think Toulouse will make the Top 6, but I see your scope there and it's a tad gutsy and def. feasible. Happy to see you've taken on good interest of the Top 14, even though being the unread peasant you are you actually had Castres and Biarritz mixed together...tskk...

 

[FrenchFan]

After serious thought (thats a laugh already) the 30 match club will not fix the coaching problem of France but it will do the players no harm and they will hopefully get to the Internationals and the 6 Nations not absolutely fu****. This will be a problem for coaches and clubs but they may also learn from it that by managing players better, you will get the best out of them. I am not in total agreement with it all but i think you have to look at it also from a players perspective, this is not Bollix as French Fan mentioned but a possible chance of giving the players the amount of rest time they all need. The French National team will have fresh players still coached by idiots but at least they will not arrive knackered, and perform better than in the past. I did say i was not in agreement with it all before the massacre starts!!!!!!!!!

in theory yes. It sounds great. Players' welfare is a nice tune.
in practise no. The Devil is in the details.

Because 1. it's hard to implement the Agreement in practise as Laporte & Guirado recently pointed out, and as many more will soon find out.

2. It's highly likely that some clubs will ignore the Agreement to protect and/or save their season when it come to shove and push later in the season. Sorry if a club has to chose btw survival in the elite by fielding its strongest side for every game, and adherence to some ****ed up Agreement that has been a thorn in their side all season, what do you think they'll choose? we'll get the answers in a few months....

There's also a long term risk to our rugby. If the Agreement is not rescinded after the WC. What will the big providers like Toulouse resort to bypass the Agreement and avoid another season of misery? they will hire more foreigners to cover for les Doublons. Problem solved. And we will get more foreigners in the league. Not good.

This is why i argue that the Agreement will, ironically, backfire on les Bleus in the end. Never mind the fact that it doesn't even address the issues that have plagued in the last 3 years.

I have discussed this with JM Rancoule here who is in charge of recruitment. He said the club would be forced to hire more foreigners if the Agreement isn't scraped after 2015. French internationals will become a liability as the club pay them full time but they can only play a limited number of games. Much easier to hire foreigners as the Agreement doesn't apply to them.

 

[FrenchFan]

I appoint you FF to this same, redundant place: our guys do play way too much - "too much" meaning, to a point that isn't viable anymore for the human body and mind; a point that is not sustainable, or positive, or logical to pursue. And the vast majority of the matches and mental strain occur in the Top 14 for the players, not at Test Rugby level.

Here, I've only stated fact, and interpreted and concluded objectively on what's been said during the last two years. I'm not offering subjective thought on the 30-match solution or entire LNR-FFR agreement whatsoever, nor am I concluding it is the way to go. But something definitely NEEDED to be done, and this was the most direct way of addressing the freshness issue.
Of course, the French Rugby chessboard is so complex today with so many heterogeneous interests intertwined forming a spiderweb battlefield, any smallest decision on one end will influence greatly on another corner of the spectrum.
It should be said, I've forgotten how the English protect their players and although they only have 12 teams they're not that far off from us and are doing quite well (many injuries too, though...).

oh i'm long sold on the idea of player burn-out in our league. Tu prêches un converti. It's the biggest issue in our league, streets ahead of the concussion issue (which is bad enough).
But my point is the agreement won't fix the problem because it won't work in practise. And some clubs will ignore it.

 

[gaston le gaff]

I do think you are missing the point a little FF, you talk about using players at the end of the season to stay in the Elite, eg Bayonne Brive Oyonnax Lyon and La Rochelle all probably in that group who will be fighting for survival, how many French Internationals amongst the whole 5 teams mentioned very few if any!!!! so it does not really count for all the teams in the bottow 5 of the TOP 14. as you mentioned if it comes to push or shove later in the season, the teams that manage their players well, will have them there at the end of the season and the 30 games will not be that big an issue. The teams that will be affected are the top 8 teams and more so Clermont, Toulouse, Toulon Castre Stade Frangipan and us to a certain degree, already some coaches gave Internationals friendly match time, excuse me but if i knew about the rules of the agreement so did everyone else , eg FTD only played 2x19 mins of Friendlies so nothing counted for FTD, thats good player management.I'm not happy about the situation but even if you are dead against it, the fact that the players will be rested has to be a good thing, we ca't help who coaches them when they go to Marcoursis, thats out of our hands.
This is a very complex affair and it could be a step in the right direction but everybody has to be onboard. So we go back to the academies and bring players through like we do at Montpellier, Selponi, Artru, Sicart, Berard, Nems, Quercy, FTD, Ouedraogo, Galletier etc etc all came through the system and still playing for the club and then you should start seeing some light at the end pof the tunnel. Something has to be done its not ideal at the moment but if the situation carries on it will get worse not better!!!!!!!!!

 

[FrenchFan]

I do think you are missing the point a little FF, you talk about using players at the end of the season to stay in the Elite, eg Bayonne Brive Oyonnax Lyon and La Rochelle all probably in that group who will be fighting for survival, how many French Internationals amongst the whole 5 teams mentioned very few if any!!!! so it does not really count for all the teams in the bottow 5 of the TOP 14. as you mentioned if it comes to push or shove later in the season, the teams that manage their players well, will have them there at the end of the season and the 30 games will not be that big an issue. The teams that will be affected are the top 8 teams and more so Clermont, Toulouse, Toulon Castre Stade Frangipan and us to a certain degree, already some coaches gave Internationals friendly match time, excuse me but if i knew about the rules of the agreement so did everyone else , eg FTD only played 2x19 mins of Friendlies so nothing counted for FTD, thats good player management.I'm not happy about the situation but even if you are dead against it, the fact that the players will be rested has to be a good thing, we ca't help who coaches them when they go to Marcoursis, thats out of our hands.
This is a very complex affair and it could be a step in the right direction but everybody has to be onboard. So we go back to the academies and bring players through like we do at Montpellier, Selponi, Artru, Sicart, Berard, Nems, Quercy, FTD, Ouedraogo, Galletier etc etc all came through the system and still playing for the club and then you should start seeing some light at the end pof the tunnel. Something has to be done its not ideal at the moment but if the situation carries on it will get worse not better!!!!!!!!!

well Gaston obviously we're only talking about the big providers like Toulouse Clermont etc. That rules out the clubs you mentioned Bayonne Brive Oyonnax Lyon and La Rochelle - that was a given - but Toulouse could be fighting to stay in the top 6 - in which case my point is still valid.

It would be unthinkable for many to see Toulouse drop out of the top 6. Yet I think it could very well happen this season. In which case mighty Toulouse will be every bit as desperate to field their best XV in which case SCREW the Agreement. Don't forget Bouscatel has walked out of the deal. So he won't be bothered giving Noves the go-ahead to do so. The club is already at loggerheads with the Suits.
If Toulouse season takes a turn for the worse (no prospect of any ***le + out of the top 6 or 7) they will ignore the Agreement. They would be crazy not to. In which case Philippe is more than welcome to find his internationals elsewhere, say Montpellier . I hear there's a great fly half there that doesn't get a look in and Alex Tulou has a French passport so....

I agree that something should be done. It's LONG overdue. But unfortunately the Agreement as it stands does NOT address those issues.

The power that be are not targeting the real issues. Because all the Agreement does is legally cover their arse to have full access to the internationals .

It does not address the relationships with the clubs. It doesn't address the calendrier. It doesn't address issues around national side (coaching, management etc)

It's going to create more problems than provide solutions.

in the long term it will force the big providers to hire more foreigners. How is that a solution?

 

[Big Ewis]

oh look, the Cistes 23 came out...

1. Misha NARIASHVILI - 2. Mickaël IVALDI - 3. Chris KING - 4. Tom DONNELLY - 5. Sitaleki TIMANI - 6. Fulgence OUEDRAOGO (Capitaine) - 7. Kélian GALLETIER - 8. Ben MOWEN - 9. Jonathan PELISSIE - 10. François TRINH-DUC - 11. Lucas DUPONT - 12. Wynand OLIVIER - 13. Rene RANGER - 14. Timoci NAGUSA - 15. Benjamin FALL
Les remplaçants: 16. Thomas BIANCHIN - 17. Yvan WATREMEZ - 18. Thibaut PRIVAT - 19. Alex TULOU - 20. Benoît PAILLAUGUE - 21. Pierre BERARD - 22. Robert EBERSOHN - 23. Na'ama LELEIMALEFAGA

See more at: http://montpellier-rugby.com/news/la-composition-pour-mhr-co-1#sthash.6vqx78hl.dpuf