Third Test: Australia v British and Irish Lions (06/07/13)

[ZeFrenchy]

Given that none of the centres have shown to be in great form on tour, it makes sense to choose on class and drop the best centre of the pro era.

 

[Peat]

Lads I on phone but can someone go on YouTube and get the video "Lions Centre Combination" by Murray Kinsella (A video analyst) and post it here its a very fair clip

 

[webbyinjapan]

Given that none of the centres have shown to be in great form on tour, it makes sense to choose on class and drop the best centre of the pro era.

In fairness, Davies has played well at outside centre,,, his preferred position.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I haven't enjoyed this tour one bit. I made my reasons clear at the beginning and it looks like they've been justified as it has gone on. When Warren Gatland was announced as coach I was skeptical. Surely the Lions had learned the lessons of 2001 and 2005, that a coach too close to one nation's setup would naturally favor said nation.

When the squad was announced, complete with 15 Welshmen, I let it slide. Every coach has his preferences, so we'll just see how it pans out.

When Warburton was named as captain, despite not even being the form 7 in Wales and most certainly assured of a test berth at the tour's outset I was miffed, but willing to get on with it.

When the squad trained with the Welsh squad to tour Japan I was how there might be some convenience to it, but was rightly ****** off. Surely training a less depleted Scottish squad or and English side with more strength in depth would be more beneficial?

When a Welsh under 20's player was brought in to train with the side as they were short of numbers I saw little sense in it. How was this going to benefit the Lions over a more accomplished club player?

When Warburton was retained as captain, despite Gatland saying any player unavailable for the first two games wouldn't be considered thereafter I was peeved. Surely any element of fair competition is fading out of the tour.

When tactics that haven't worked for Wales countless times against weaker Australian sides than this one were introduced I was worried.

Now here we are at the third test. Philips reintroduced despite having a shocker in the first test. Tom Youngs inexplicably dropped. Alex Cuthbert in on the bench despite offering very little versatility. Brian O'Driscoll dropped for a half fit Jamie Roberts while the much more able Manu Tuilagi doesn't get a look in. Dan Lydiate retained at 6 despite offering little go forward ball, meaning Sean O'Brien is shoe-horned into 7, depriving the Lions of a genuine jackal. Jonathan Davies retained while the man outside his is dropped despite outperforming him.



Sod it.

 

[Peat]

Speaking of videos, also found this one from Green and Gold on centres...



I know that the years have condemned O'Driscoll slightly, and what was then is not always now, but it has reminded me of just how amazeballs Roberts and O'Driscoll were together. I am sadcat that I'm not seeing it again.

 

[munstermuffin]

Cheers Peat. Think it a good fair analysis on centre play

 

[munstermuffin]

I haven't enjoyed this tour one bit. I made my reasons clear at the beginning and it looks like they've been justified as it has gone on. When Warren Gatland was announced as coach I was skeptical. Surely the Lions had learned the lessons of 2001 and 2005, that a coach too close to one nation's setup would naturally favor said nation.

When the squad was announced, complete with 15 Welshmen, I let it slide. Every coach has his preferences, so we'll just see how it pans out.

When Warburton was named as captain, despite not even being the form 7 in Wales and most certainly assured of a test berth at the tour's outset I was miffed, but willing to get on with it.

When the squad trained with the Welsh squad to tour Japan I was how there might be some convenience to it, but was rightly ****** off. Surely training a less depleted Scottish squad or and English side with more strength in depth would be more beneficial?

When a Welsh under 20's player was brought in to train with the side as they were short of numbers I saw little sense in it. How was this going to benefit the Lions over a more accomplished club player?

When Warburton was retained as captain, despite Gatland saying any player unavailable for the first two games wouldn't be considered thereafter I was peeved. Surely any element of fair competition is fading out of the tour.

When tactics that haven't worked for Wales countless times against weaker Australian sides than this one were introduced I was worried.

Now here we are at the third test. Philips reintroduced despite having a shocker in the first test. Tom Youngs inexplicably dropped. Alex Cuthbert in on the bench despite offering very little versatility. Brian O'Driscoll dropped for a half fit Jamie Roberts while the much more able Manu Tuilagi doesn't get a look in. Dan Lydiate retained at 6 despite offering little go forward ball, meaning Sean O'Brien is shoe-horned into 7, depriving the Lions of a genuine jackal. Jonathan Davies retained while the man outside his is dropped despite outperforming him.



Sod it.

Excellent piece and have to agree with it fully

 

[j'nuh]

This is England all over again. A team that I will somewhat get behind, but frustrating selections leave it as a team hard to care too much about. To put it one way, if the Lions win, I feel the Welsh will be celebrating more than the other home nations.

Btw, I never said in my post that BOD should have been dropped or that Davies was better. I think they both should have stayed tbh, just swapped positions. Don't see why BOD couldn't play at 12, if the coaches think Davies is experienced enough to. Regarding the turnovers, I do think BOD should cool down and leave more of this to others, it seems his method isn't sitting right with the officials in the SH and he's being penalised far too often. But other than that he hasn't done anything to deserve being dropped, of course.

The third test is to be reffed by Poite.

Truth is, BO'D at least marginally outperformed Davies. eg, a notable stat: BO'D had a tackle rate of 12/0 and Davies 7/3. Davies also let in the losing try. But also BO'D is just generally a better player ignoring form. He's the most likely of the two to have some moment of inspiration. He's the kind of guy you look to to make something happen. And he's a better leader. And not in the slightly intangible way of Warburton "leading by example", but that he brings real tangible leadership benefits such as positioning players in the backline.

I don't want to take too much away from Davies, because he's worked hard this tour which is pretty clear. But the right selection would be a ball crasher (Roberts, Tuilagi - I'd prefer Tuilagi for his attacking skill) and BO'D.

 

[dullonien]

I've not read through all the comments, but this is my take on the selection.

Corbs - had to come back in, great to see him back.
Hibbard - Hasn't been great this tour, but Youngs wasn't great last week and Hibbard offers a little more clout. It was a 50/50 call for me, and I think a change here was a good way to change things slightly.
Jones - Still the best option. If Cole had been in good form, I'd have welcomed his inclusion, but he hasn't (bar one or two scrums).
AWJ - best player over the course of the 2 tests.
Parling - I have my reservations. He's a good player, and has played better than Evans and Gray this tour, but I felt a little more bulk would have helped some of the issues we had in the second test.
Lydiate - Wasn't great last week imo. I would have liked to see a bit more daring here and gone for a more attacking player in SOB.
SOB - Happy to see him included for his ball carrying, but I would have chanced my arm a little more and played Tips at openside. Maybe Tips hasn't set the world on fire this tour, but his workrate has been second to none, and we all know he's a class above all the other backrowers in terms of link play and vision.
Faletau - Over the moon with this selection. Heaslip hasn't done much wrong, but Faletau imo has been great all tour. Should offer us a little more go forward in the tight over Heaslip.

Phillips - Struggled this tour, possibly due to his injury. Always going to come back in though, and I hope it pays off.
Sexton - No other options. With better quality ball I hope to see his true quality shine through.
North - Obvious choice.
Roberts - Our only natural 12. Tuilagi could have come in, but he's had limited gametime at 12.
Davies - I would have kept BOD personally, or gone for Tuilagi in a huge midfield, but I can understand why Davies has been retained. He was poor last week, but as I've said before, so was BOD. I think this decision has been made mainly due to the injuries to Roberts and Tuilagi. It has meant that combinations haven't been able to tested, and Roberts and Davies' experience playing together is the safest and easiest way to guarantee a good understanding. Roberts and BOD were great in '09, but that was 4 years ago, no guarantee they'd hit it off again straight away. I would have liked to see a little more risk taken, but this is the safe option, and it may pay off.
Bowe - no complaints.
Halfpenny - certainty.

So overall, I can understand the reasons for selecting this team (backrow apart). I was hoping Gatland would have taken a little more risk in his selection, but he's not always that kinda coach. He prefers to take the safe options. On the other hand, it's also a hugely risky selection, because the media will destroy him if the Lions don't win.

So I don't know whether to praise Gatland for being somewhat bold (making an unpopular selection), or criticise him for leaving out a couple of key players (Tipuric and BOD). I'll reserve full judgement until the game has finished.

I know that this is easier to take as a Welshman, so I understand other people's frustrations with this selection.

This is kinda why I think Gats has gone with Roberts-Davies. The understanding isn't there between Davies and BOD (I don't think the first example in the video is Davies' fault. He looks like he's coming on an angle, and where the video is stopped, he's ready to take a flat ball, and there's a slight gap in the defence to hit, but BOD delays, and Davies overruns). With Roberts and Tuilagi's injuries, there hasn't been a proper chance to re-unite Roberts and BOD, or try Roberts and Tuilagi together, or even Tuilagi and BOD.

Roberts and Davies have a good understanding after playing together for the past few years. Their defensive combination is especially good.

Do I agree with it? Not really, but I can understand it.

 

[lynam1104]

I agree with the rest of your post, apart from this.
I think Tipuric has been in excellent form, and would've started the first test if I were Gatland.

If you were Gatland i'd start a petition to get you off this forum.

EDIT: as others have said I wouldn't mind if a player picked over BOD was on better form, I wouldn't mind 10 welsh or even 15 welsh if they were the form players but they're ****ing not simple as.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

There's two more Welshman than I would have picked but can't help feeling we should be getting behind the boys.If they lose on Saturday then fair enough but let's wait and see.Welsh fans got behind the Lions in 89,93 and 97 when we (rightly) had scant representation and traveled in large numbers.It's not the side I would picked but so what? Gatland has won English premierships,Heineken Cups and 6 Nations grand slams so he knows what he's doing.

Good luck to all 23 boys on Saturday,wherever they come from.

 

[Feicarsinn]

There's two more Welshman than I would have picked but can't help feeling we should be getting behind the boys.If they lose on Saturday then fair enough but let's wait and see.Welsh fans got behind the Lions in 89,93 and 97 when we (rightly) had scant representation and traveled in large numbers.It's not the side I would picked but so what? Gatland has won English premierships,Heineken Cups and 6 Nations grand slams so he knows what he's doing.

Good luck to all 23 boys on Saturday,wherever they come from.

If that were true his Welsh side would probably have more to show against Australia over recent times. Let's be honest here, he's faced with the biggest game of his career and has reverted to type. He clearly trusts his Welsh players more than the other home nations members of the squad, despite their previous failings against Australia. For me that's bottling it.

 

[munstermuffin]

Guess we singing Land Of My Fathers at start too. Only way I looking at it now - IF Wales/Lions win then they'll finally get a win over a Aus team that hell even Scotland have done. And if they loose then I will be 100% sure they will be a team that despite 6Nations aren't as good and as I said Gatland is the 1 more than Wales that if he looses then he better start kissing the WRU's cherry pipes because his career will suffer after Welsh job is gone.
We can slate Woodward in 2005 but fact is yes he got it totally wrong but he also came up against the All Blacks in their ULTIMATE PEAK FORM. In 2009 SA were in superb form but our lads were good and at least brought pride. In 2013 this Aus aren't in any great shapes and don't even have a proper 10, have problems with players off the field, a coach waiting to be axed and they still know the basic stuff yet we just want to keep building controversial stories.
The Lions is actually becoming a circus and well having toured US and Canada as a fan of Ireland instead of going to Aus I delighted now because at least Ireland team means something after whereas this Lions tour turned in to a joke where it's just to improve Welsh standards from U20s being with them to manner in which Gatland has F'd up. And he has disgraced this tour win loose or draw. And in my opinion made alot question is the tour on last life???

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

If that were true his Welsh side would probably have more to show against Australia over recent times. Let's be honest here, he's faced with the biggest game of his career and has reverted to type. He clearly trusts his Welsh players more than the other home nations members of the squad, despite their previous failings against Australia. For me that's bottling it.

As I've already said I would have picked O'Driscoll.Gats would have only too aware that dropping him would cause a huge fuss and that will only intensify if we lose Saturday.Not a selection I would have made but hardly bottling it.If fact the decision shows huge bottle.

 

[Feicarsinn]

As I've already said I would have picked O'Driscoll.Gats would have only too aware that dropping him would cause a huge fuss and that will only intensify if we lose Saturday.Not a selection I would have made but hardly bottling it.If fact the decision shows huge bottle.

I wasn't having a go at you mate in any way. But I do disagree that it's a particularly bold decision. For me Richard Seeckts, author of ESPN's The Crooked Feed, puts it best:

If the Lions win on Saturday, Gatland will have just done his job, by the whisker of luck that was Kurtley Beale falling over in Brisbane. If they lose, Gatland will have presided over a failure for which there are no excuses; 3-0 but for Kurtley's slip. Moreover, he will have failed with a game plan and personnel closely resembling the Welsh teams that have serially lost to Australia under Gatland's stewardship in recent years. Nothing learned, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

[Ospreylian]

Now here we are at the third test. Philips reintroduced despite having a shocker in the first test. Tom Youngs inexplicably dropped. Alex Cuthbert in on the bench despite offering very little versatility. Brian O'Driscoll dropped for a half fit Jamie Roberts while the much more able Manu Tuilagi doesn't get a look in. Dan Lydiate retained at 6 despite offering little go forward ball, meaning Sean O'Brien is shoe-horned into 7, depriving the Lions of a genuine jackal. Jonathan Davies retained while the man outside his is dropped despite outperforming him.

It's actually Tuilagi on the bench, not Cuthbert.

There's two more Welshman than I would have picked but can't help feeling we should be getting behind the boys.If they lose on Saturday then fair enough but let's wait and see.Welsh fans got behind the Lions in 89,93 and 97 when we (rightly) had scant representation and traveled in large numbers.It's not the side I would picked but so what? Gatland has won English premierships,Heineken Cups and 6 Nations grand slams so he knows what he's doing.

Good luck to all 23 boys on Saturday,wherever they come from.

I actually completely agree here Rudie, think people may be getting a bit too carried away with kneejerk reactions to the BOD scandal. It's not a bad team by any stretch. Let's see:

Halfpenny - definitely the form fullback, don't think anyone would contest that
North - the best wing on tour atm
Bowe - the next best wing in terms of all-round attacking and defensive game
Davies - splits fans, has had a mixed but generally good, imo, tour. Didn't do too well in the last test, but then nobody played particularly well and the platform wasn't there for the backs
Roberts - Looked good at the beginning of the tour, but obviously is questionable.
Sexton - The obvious choice, nothing to complain about here
Philips - so hotly debated atm that any one of the 3 scrum-halves could have been picked and there would be an uproar
Faletau - lots of fans were calling for his inclusion since the first test, so they've finally got their wish. Has been unlucky to not be included for the first 2
O'Brien - again, many argued for his inclusion.
Lydiate - the most questionable selection in my eyes as his inclusion basically leaves no room for Tipuric
AWJ - surely everyone agrees with his inclusion?
Parling - again, not sure many would argue with this
Jones - the best tighthead in world rugby, fact
Hibbard - another debatable one, but all the hookers have their strengths and weaknesses, depends what you consider a priority
Corbs - another obvious choice after the brilliant performance of the first test

Nobody was complaining to the degree I've witnessed today after the first test. The core group of players that won that first test are still there, it's just a couple of slightly wild selection decisions have let all hell break loose.

As a huge BOD fan, I feel gutted for the guy. But like Rudie says, let's get behind the team for the weekend. What will be said if the Roberts/Davies partnership flourishes and the Lions win?

From the forwards, there is only one selection mistake in my eyes, Lydiate over Tipuric. From the backs there is also only one mistake, BOD being left out. Philips is lucky, but the right choice to start what is going to be a very physical first half, methinks.

So let's all put our hankies away and get over BODgate as soon as possible, because I think the Lions still have a decent chance. But only if the forwards get it together.

 

[dullonien]

So he's in a lose, lose situation? If we win, no one will care that Beale slipped.

 

[Feicarsinn]

 

[Peat]

So he's in a lose, lose situation? If we win, no one will care that Beale slipped.

Ahh, they will. When people debate his reputation, people will be bringing that up. A win will be great, no one will be thinking of it as the final whistle goes if it all goes well, but in terms of end of tour articles, discussing where he fits in amongst Lions coaches etc.etc. it will be remembered.

Crucially for Gatland, it will be remembered in New Zealand. I doubt he's getting much positive credit for what happens here regardless and at this juncture, its difficult to see him manaing the All Blacks, where I think he'll be seen as too inflexible and too boring.

Its not so much lose-lose as, in terms of respect and a good rep and all that, he's basically already lost, barring a win of avalanche style proportions in the third test.

 

[j'nuh]

From the forwards, there is only one selection mistake in my eyes, Lydiate over Tipuric. From the backs there is also only one mistake, BOD being left out. Philips is lucky, but the right choice to start what is going to be a very physical first half, methinks.

I would have gone with something like this at this point:

1. Corbisiero
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. AWJ
5. Launchbury
6. SO'B
7. Tipuric
8. Morgan
9. Laidlaw
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Tuilagi
13. BO'D
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

16. Owens
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Parling
20. Faletau
21. Care
22. Burns/Twelvetrees
23. Roberts/Cuthbert

So a few selection mistakes in my eyes, stemming from a poor original squad.