Third Test: Australia v British and Irish Lions (06/07/13)

[Ospreylian]

I would have gone with something like this at this point:

1. Corbisiero
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. AWJ
5. Launchbury
6. SO'B
7. Tipuric
8. Morgan
9. Laidlaw
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Tuilagi
13. BO'D
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

16. Owens
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Parling
20. Faletau
21. Care
22. Burns/Twelvetrees
23. Roberts/Cuthbert

I was talking about the players Gatland already had available in the squad he picked at the beginning of the tour. Obviously if the entire touring squad included the likes of Morgan and Laidlaw I would include them also. No brainer.

 

[Rhondda Rudie]

I wasn't having a go at you mate in any way. But I do disagree that it's a particularly bold decision. For me Richard Seeckts, author of ESPN's The Crooked Feed, puts it best:

I agree it's not a bold decision in terms of the team's cutting edge but I think it's a brave call in view of the storm it would cause.BOD is an all time great but has been pinged (unfairly in my view) for a number of breakdown penalties which could have counted against him.I would have picked him but am disappointed by some of the hysterical (don't mean you Feicarsinn) comments on here.

 

[Jaguares]

Apparently George Smith is named at 7!! 6-2 split bench


1. Benn Robinson.
2. Stephen Moore
3. Ben Alexander
4. James Horwill ©
5. Kane Douglas
6. Ben Mowen
7. George Smith
8. Wycliff Palu
9. Will Genia
10. James O’Connor
11. Joe Tomane
12. Christian Lealiifano
13. Adam Ashley-Cooper
14. Israel Folau
15. Kurtley Beale
Reserves
16. Saia Faingaa
17. James Slippper
18. Sekope Kepu
19. Rob Simmons
20. Ben McCalman
21. Michael Hooper
22. Nick Phipps
23. Jesse Mogg

Back George??? One of the best wallabies players ever!!. But Michael Hooper is doing an excellent job, he is one of the pillars of the Aussie Forwards. Michael can play as No. 6 or impossible?

Regards

 

[j'nuh]

I was talking about the players Gatland already had available in the squad he picked at the beginning of the tour. Obviously if the entire touring squad included the likes of Morgan and Laidlaw I would include them also. No brainer.

But you can't really take them in isolation. This squad isn't so good because the initial selections weren't so good.

 

[Ospreylian]

But you can't really take them in isolation. This squad isn't so good because the initial selections weren't so good.

I think a lot of the selection of the initial squad was decent. North, Halfpenny, Bowe, BOD, Hibbard, T Youngs, A Jones, Cole, AWJ, Parling, POC, Tipuric, Faletau, O'Brien, Sexton etc. all deserved their places imo. It's just some players that were left out that had really put their hands up but been ignored: Morgan, Laidlaw, Biggar, Burns, May for some examples.

If I'm not mistaken, j'nuh, I believe we recently had a telephone conversation in which you claimed you thought BOD deserved to be dropped in place of Tuilagi? Better get defending yourself

 

[Saintjay]

Why are people surprised at Gatland. He is sticking to what he knows. Most of his coaching is based on set moves and praticed drills and he has picked a team that knows them. As the second test showed if your losing the scrum and line out you can't run any of them. The other down side is that if the team work your plan out your pretty easy to stop. It seems to me he's pick a team he feels can do the drills hence BOD being dropped.

I think taking into account he has Howley as 2ic and Sarries Farrell as well. It should not be a hugh surprise that he reverted to type.

 

[lynam1104]

I agree it's not a bold decision in terms of the team's cutting edge but I think it's a brave call in view of the storm it would cause.BOD is an all time great but has been pinged (unfairly in my view) for a number of breakdown penalties which could have counted against him.I would have picked him but am disappointed by some of the hysterical (don't mean you Feicarsinn) comments on here.

BOD gave away 3 penalties in the first test of the 3 I can see only 1 which is justifiable I really don't see that as something that would count against him particularly as he was picked for 2nd test a week after those 2 unfair penalties were awarded.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Why are people surprised at Gatland. He is sticking to what he knows. Most of his coaching is based on set moves and praticed drills and he has picked a team that knows them. As the second test showed if your losing the scrum and line out you can't run any of them. The other down side is that if the team work your plan out your pretty easy to stop. It seems to me he's pick a team he feels can do the drills hence BOD being dropped.

I think taking into account he has Howley as 2ic and Sarries Farrell as well. It should not be a hugh surprise that he reverted to type.

Let's not mistake surprise for disappointment.

 

[dullonien]

BOD gave away 3 penalties in the first test of the 3 I can see only 1 which is justifiable I really don't see that as something that would count against him particularly as he was picked for 2nd test a week after those 2 unfair penalties were awarded.

Yeah, I wouldn't count them against him. You could possibly say that he failed to adjust to the ref, but that would also be incredibly harsh, because the second penalty he gave away in the first test was an obvious turn-over imo.

The thing is, BOD is no longer the great, great player he was. He's still good, don't get me wrong, but he's not miles ahead of others, other than in his experience. Talent only get's you so far as the years roll on. If this was 2001, or 2005, then dropping BOD would have been unthinkable, but between injuries over the last few years, and age, he's no longer that all dominating force.

His quality of course counts for a lot, and I would have picked him, backing him to put in one last huge performance. But he's no longer that complete game changer he was, instead he thrives on having a relationship with those around him, putting them into space. I don't think he's had a chance to build that relationship with any one player this tour due to injuries to Roberts and Tuilagi, and as such the relationship between Roberts and Davies is what has driven this selection. Davies also has a good track record of scoring in big matches.

I'm not happy with the Roberts - Davies combination for Wales though, so I'm obviously not happy with it for the Lions either. But circumstances have possibly limited things this tour.

 

[munstermuffin]

On the bright side at least the Irish boys will have a real rocket up their holes come 6 Nations time and Schmidt must be laughing a bit now.
Missed out on Lions back coach because he knows how to have them playing rugby and it's probably being a blessing for him as since then he has went on got Irish job and without doing nothing has already got a motive for his team. Add in it's same for English boys and Scots when they meet Wales and the coach who didn't rate them

 

[Dougydeluxe]

Two issues with the Lions.

First is wether BOD started or not, I feel he needed to at least be a 23... The guy is great and would handle coming on late in a game with lots of pressure better than Tuilagi.

The other issue is something that Sir Ian Mcgeechan spoke about. He spoke about the combinations you get to make during the Lions as the great part of the job. As somewhat of a neutral, seeing the likes of Tuilagi with BOD, or it would have been cool to see him with Davies (The kid has played well, and far better at 13 this tour) as somehting that can only happen every 4 years.

There are a bunch more combos (but more so, if there had been other people selected). Its is combination of taking some one like a "Matt Scott" who played well for Scotland and finding a partner that would elevate his game to world class. Or finding two world class players that would work so well together. AKA finding people who do not have the team around them to be amazing, but are. That is what can truly make a Lions tour great.

Seeing Hogg at 10 was great fun, but pointless... It would have been nice to see really cool pairings and great rugby with a loss. Then have this Bash and Kick style with known players and style and win.

 

[Peat]

The thing is, BOD is no longer the great, great player he was. He's still good, don't get me wrong, but he's not miles ahead of others, other than in his experience. Talent only get's you so far as the years roll on. If this was 2001, or 2005, then dropping BOD would have been unthinkable, but between injuries over the last few years, and age, he's no longer that all dominating force.

Slightly academically speaking - not arguing against your thinking on why Gatland made the choice, just this statement - but I'm not so sure this is true. His international performances have been a little intermittent, true, but that's true of everyone inflicted witb Kidney. At the slightly lesser level of the Heineken Cup, O'Driscoll is still very, very dangerous on a game-in, game-out basis. His recent international performances have included some big performances as well. He has lost the electric pace and change of direction, its true, but he has replaced those with other gifts. He is a better distributor and creator; his instincts are sharper; his defence is vicious and inspiring. I get why Gatland did it; I just can't agree particularly as for me, only one of the four Lions centres that travelled is World Class, and he's not playing in the final test - even if he has declined a bit.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Slightly academically speaking - not arguing against your thinking on why Gatland made the choice, just this statement - but I'm not so sure this is true. His international performances have been a little intermittent, true, but that's true of everyone inflicted witb Kidney. At the slightly lesser level of the Heineken Cup, O'Driscoll is still very, very dangerous on a game-in, game-out basis. His recent international performances have included some big performances as well. He has lost the electric pace and change of direction, its true, but he has replaced those with other gifts. He is a better distributor and creator; his instincts are sharper; his defence is vicious and inspiring. I get why Gatland did it; I just can't agree particularly as for me, only one of the four Lions centres that travelled is World Class, and he's not playing in the final test - even if he has declined a bit.

This.

In 40 years, I'll talk to my grandchildren about BOD. I won't remember who Roberts and Davies were (unless something surprising happens in their careers).

 

[Jbobo]

Will discuss things more later, but my selection would have been-

1. Corbisiero
2. Hibbard
3. Jones
4. AWJ (c)
5. Gray
6. Lydiate
7. Tipuric
8. SOB
9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davies/BOD (can't decide!! Davies has had a far better tour, but Bod would have put in one hell of a final game effort. Although with that, i reckon Gatland's decision was made with sound judgement regarding risk, form and experience. BOD is nowhere near the player he was, but if he was on proper form and was more in tune with the rest of the backs then he would be my 13 although his decision making under pressure in the second half of the 2nd test was poor. If Davies isn't too erratic, he could win the series for us.)
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

16. Youngs
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Faletau
20. Farrell
21. Murray
22. Tuilagi
23. Cuthbert

 

[dullonien]

Slightly academically speaking - not arguing against your thinking on why Gatland made the choice, just this statement - but I'm not so sure this is true. His international performances have been a little intermittent, true, but that's true of everyone inflicted witb Kidney. At the slightly lesser level of the Heineken Cup, O'Driscoll is still very, very dangerous on a game-in, game-out basis. His recent international performances have included some big performances as well. He has lost the electric pace and change of direction, its true, but he has replaced those with other gifts. He is a better distributor and creator; his instincts are sharper; his defence is vicious and inspiring. I get why Gatland did it; I just can't agree particularly as for me, only one of the four Lions centres that travelled is World Class, and he's not playing in the final test - even if he has declined a bit.

I mostly agree. But he hasn't been at his best this tour. Arguably Davies has had a better tour, as has Tuilagi when he's played. Ironically the only centre who's been worse is Roberts, yet he get's a free ride. Again I can understand why Roberts is there, being the only proper 12, but it does seem a little like double standards that Roberts is there on reputation, yet BOD misses out despite his reputation.

As I said, I would have selected BOD, and ideally alongside Tuilagi, but I'd be worried that combination would fail as well, both being 13's.

This.

In 40 years, I'll talk to my grandchildren about BOD. I won't remember who Roberts and Davies were (unless something surprising happens in their careers).

At the same time, that can't last forever. This was supposed to be BOD's last international foray, although he's been persuaded to play one more season by Shmidt. Maybe that was down to Kidney, maybe he know's he's on the wane, but eventually every great player get's to the stage where he's not as great as he once was.

Maybe he would have come out and had a blinder, maybe he would have had another stinker (OK not quite a stinker last week, but way, way below his usual standards). Gatland obviously believes it was more likely to be the latter. Personally I would edge towards the former, pity we'll never know I suppose.

 

[j'nuh]

If I'm not mistaken, j'nuh, I believe we recently had a telephone conversation in which you claimed you thought BOD deserved to be dropped in place of Tuilagi? Better get defending yourself

Would go with Tuilagi out of the two of them, but didn't I say I wanted Tuilagi + BO'D?

 

[Feicarsinn]

The main thing that smacks me about that Lions backline is that if Sexton has an off day they're sunk. There's no real creativity outside him. Good players, but I wouldn't count on any of them to make a big play on this stage.


I seriously can't believe that despite being available for the last two test we haven't seen BOD and Tuilagi together. Tuilagi is the most destructive back in the Northern Hemisphere, possibly a more effective version of Ma'a Nonu. BOD is still a hell of a smart player. They could have been devastating. An utter shame.

 

[mstar]

Gatland can f%% off. Whats the point if all we are going to get is the warrenball game we seen so many times when wales played australia? no guile/creativity in the centre/pack. We have lydiate who is great tackler but offers NOTHING offensively to trouble the australians.

When is gatland going to learn this is a FINAL game winner takes all, he has to WIN the game by scoring trys! croft offers more offensive cover and he is NOT even on the bench!!

BOD is immense i said before form is temporary BUT CLASS is permanent! if you watch his game he does SO much defensive work it closes gaps the opposition centres cannot exploit. Also the other game that he has developed is he acts as another flanker at the breakdown, sure he got penalised and said he didn't want to risk being yellow carded but he is fantastic at the breakdown some skills jon davies/roberts don't have.

Gatland just removed for me everything we wanted to see in a Lions game, now all we have is a wales gameplan but with 5 non welsh players being TOLD to play the welsh way -crash-bang-whallop. Deans called it correctly back in March -gatlands side over the years play one way and he is well versed how it will be -no matter who he pics the core side will be the one that he coached and likes -big/powerful/physical players with no creativity one way play straight down the middle then wide looking for north/cuthbert to bang and finish.

Thanks gatland, my viewing will be painful. Australia will show so much attacking/creativity it make the Lions look robotic

 

[dullonien]

I seriously can't believe that despite being available for the last two test we haven't seen BOD and Tuilagi together. Tuilagi is the most destructive back in the Northern Hemisphere, possibly a more effective version of Ma'a Nonu. BOD is still a hell of a smart player. They could have been devastating. An utter shame.

Yeah. If I were Gatland I would have chanced my arm in the second test. Pair Tuilagi and BOD in midfield and going for Warburton, Tipuric and Faletau/Heaslip in the backrow, and possibly retained Cuthbert on the wing. It would have been a bit of a gamble, but with a game to spare, it would have been worth it imo, because if it didn't come off, we'd simply be in the same situation we're in now.

Instead he did the opposite and tried to shut the game down, and it didn't pay off.

When is gatland going to learn this is a FINAL game winner takes all, he has to WIN the game by scoring trys! croft offers more offensive cover and he is NOT even on the bench!!

Croft isn't the be all end end all of attacking. Without go forward from the rest of the pack, Croft becomes as useless in attack as the wingers, and Croft isn't going to give you go forward ball where we need it. SOB and Faletau should, so it's great to have them there.

I still think you are overly harsh on Lydiate, but I do somewhat agree against Austrailia. But for me, even then, Croft wouldn't be who I'd chose, instead Tipuric offers a more rounded game, whilst still being pretty awesome ball in hand.

Also the other game that he has developed is he acts as another flanker at the breakdown, sure he got penalised and said he didn't want to risk being yellow carded but he is fantastic at the breakdown some skills jon davies/roberts don't have.

To be fair, Davies' rucking work is still excellent for a back. He's a great counter rucker. Not as good a fetcher, but he does get himself in there. But again, I see where you are coming from.

 

[mstar]

what i meant was with a change of tactics utilising the pace of croft for a flanker gives us in affect an extra winger/link man. Sure it takes a coach to change tactics GEECH used it to great affect in 2009. My problem is not lydiate, its gatlands stubborn/lack of tactical noose not to change a game plan he has been using since he started coaching. He is all wrong if your creative player or a side which wants to play a free flowing game with ball in hand.

I agree Tipuric should be playing, his link up play is great for going forward. My dissapointment from day 1 was for a Lions coach gatland is all wrong, for what a Lions side should be all about and play.