The Reconstruction of Irish Rugby 2016

[munstermuffin]

- 'cos he is a known quantity (decent centre - and no more than that - also doesn't have the same performance ceiling as McCloskey, Henshaw, Olding & Aki - who have yet to realise their potential)
- 'cos he is gonna be 32 at next RWC.
- 'cos he is likely gonna be injured for significant portions of time between now and next RWC.

In fairness Olding has a worst injury record in recent years.
McCloskey could be useful vs Wales as it will be physical in centre. Aki will be the interesting one when the time comes.
But it's great we have realistic options

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

- 'cos he is a known quantity (decent centre - and no more than that -)

Disagree 100%. Have you even watched him at all?

 

[Amiga500]

In fairness Olding has a worst injury record in recent years.

Indeed - but has similar potential to Fitzgerald when he first burst on the scene.

Luke Fitz didn't (and by now, won't) realise his (sky-high IMO) potential, maybe Olding will.

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Disagree 100%. Have you even watched him at all?

I know you do.

I've seen your posts elsewhere and I won't be bothering trying to educate you to the error of your ways.

 

[sixesauldman]

At centre it seems we have multiple combinations and options, Ireland's woes begin much closer to the ball, on all current provincial form if Murray gets knocked out, big step down on the bench. The lack of brinkmanship in his contract dealings suggest Nusifora well minded of this. Surely McGrath /Marmion need as much exposure as possible.

 

[munstermuffin]

Indeed - but has similar potential to Fitzgerald when he first burst on the scene.

Luke Fitz didn't (and by now, won't) realise his (sky-high IMO) potential, maybe Olding will.

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I know you do.

I've seen your posts elsewhere and I won't be bothering trying to educate you to the error of your ways.

That's a fair point but Olding is 23 this year and it's a tender age. He has a better chance but I just feel 1 more long term injury will really hurt. Let's remember he hasn't even played 40 professional games between club and country. But I agree he has the better chance of making it. I wouldn't say Fitzgearld is a poor centre though. He is good just his awareness at times is where he lacks and I have watched him enough to know what I on about.
@sixesauldman Marmion is a guy I'm unsure of. He's had chances and by all accounts never looked up to it in camps and A game last year he was poor. But your correct after Murray its huge drop off.

 

[big ginger 8]

Fitzgerald not so long ago had the better of Nonu in back to back games, he was also a Lions at 21. I'm not even sure we know his ceiling because of him not getting a decent run at international level but we know it's pretty high. I don't think he's a definite starting centre for us at the moment but I certainly wouldn't write him off for someone like Aki.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

Fitzgerald not so long ago had the better of Nonu in back to back games, he was also a Lions at 21. I'm not even sure we know his ceiling because of him not getting a decent run at international level but we know it's pretty high. I don't think he's a definite starting centre for us at the moment but I certainly wouldn't write him off for someone like Aki.

He's easily been one of the top 3 centres in Ireland this season and especially last season. Has to be somewhere in the XV

 

[big ginger 8]

Strauss and Madigan lent back to Leinster this weekend, I wonder is that a good sign for Cronin and Jackson.

Also on a side note with Adam Byrne starting Leinster have no had 52 different players on the pitch this season with a few possibilities off the bench who could be the 53rd breaking a record for Irish rugby.

 

[munstermuffin]

Fitzgerald not so long ago had the better of Nonu in back to back games, he was also a Lions at 21. I'm not even sure we know his ceiling because of him not getting a decent run at international level but we know it's pretty high. I don't think he's a definite starting centre for us at the moment but I certainly wouldn't write him off for someone like Aki.

While he did better Nonu it's hard to compare like for like. Nonu was only back after a break. And Fitzgearld was a Lion on the wing. Lets remember Earls was selected as a Lion primarily as a 13. And not many rate him there. But all your points a valid and Fitzgearlds biggest flaw at the moment is his versatility. It isn't allowing him get a run of games in 1 position like where would many say is his best position? I wouldn't agree with Luke in saying he's in the top 3 for Ireland in centres simply because the 2 Ulster lads and Henshaw are miles ahead this season of rest in my eyes.

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Strauss and Madigan lent back to Leinster this weekend, I wonder is that a good sign for Cronin and Jackson.

Also on a side note with Adam Byrne starting Leinster have no had 52 different players on the pitch this season with a few possibilities off the bench who could be the 53rd breaking a record for Irish rugby.

More I'd say Madigan getting time at 10 presuming that's where he comes on. Cronin is the best 16 we have in Ireland in my eyes. Not a starter but superb replacement.

 

[Amiga500]

That's a fair point but Olding is 23 this year and it's a tender age. He has a better chance but I just feel 1 more long term injury will really hurt.

One more ACL in the near future on that knee and he might as well retire to be honest - as it would be obvious the joint can no longer sustain the rigours of the game.

I wouldn't say Fitzgearld is a poor centre though. He is good just his awareness at times is where he lacks and I have watched him enough to know what I on about.

I never said he was poor, just decent - and no more.

@sixesauldman Marmion is a guy I'm unsure of. He's had chances and by all accounts never looked up to it in camps and A game last year he was poor. But your correct after Murray its huge drop off.

I was actually more impressed with Cooney when I saw him play a few games.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

While he did better Nonu it's hard to compare like for like. Nonu was only back after a break. And Fitzgearld was a Lion on the wing. Lets remember Earls was selected as a Lion primarily as a 13. And not many rate him there. But all your points a valid and Fitzgearlds biggest flaw at the moment is his versatility. It isn't allowing him get a run of games in 1 position like where would many say is his best position? I wouldn't agree with Luke in saying he's in the top 3 for Ireland in centres simply because the 2 Ulster lads and Henshaw are miles ahead this season of rest in my eyes.

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More I'd say Madigan getting time at 10 presuming that's where he comes on. Cronin is the best 16 we have in Ireland in my eyes. Not a starter but superb replacement.

Big difference in a Lion and a test Lion, Fitz was the latter! I think Fitz and McCloskey are neck and neck at 12, depending on the teams we're playing they're interchangeable.

 

[Amiga500]

Strauss and Madigan lent back to Leinster this weekend, I wonder is that a good sign for Cronin and Jackson.

I'd have Herring ahead of Cronin. Indeed there are days (becoming more and more frequent) I'd have Herring ahead of Best too...

Also on a side note with Adam Byrne starting Leinster have no had 52 different players on the pitch this season with a few possibilities off the bench who could be the 53rd breaking a record for Irish rugby.

MOC is crying into his bowl of lucky charms.

 

[munstermuffin]

Big difference in a Lion and a test Lion, Fitz was the latter! I think Fitz and McCloskey are neck and neck at 12, depending on the teams we're playing they're interchangeable.

Yes but remember he's older than Earls and while I admit Earls was never going to overtake BOD as 13 on tour he was injured too. And had the benefit of being a winger in Slam. But again not like for like comparing a wing to centre. And I agree Fitz was ahead at time as Earls was only in his 1st year being a starter but my main point Fitz was a Lion and a test Lion at wing not 12 or 13.
@AmIga I know you never said Fitz was a poor centre. My own view is he is good but not a top top centre as his awareness is poor like Earls and most who learnt trade on the wing.

And I'd agree with you on Cooney who I'm a fan of. But wouldn't agree regards Herring > Cronin at 16.

 

[LukeFitzgerald]

And not many rate him there.

I wouldn't agree with Luke in saying he's in the top 3 for Ireland in centres simply because the 2 Ulster lads and Henshaw are miles ahead this season of rest in my eyes.

Everyone's allowed their opinion, but if anyone thinks that Fitzgerald is anything less than decent at either the wing or centre, their opinion should be discredited. I just can't fathom how so few people here don't rate him (more than likely because they haven't seen him play in more than 3 games over the last few seasons).

Henshaw has played twice at fullback and twice at 13 for Connacht this season, in which he wasn't in spectacular form, unlike Fitzgerald. The McCloskey/Marshall axis has been class but Fitz is a better 13 than Marshall and Schmidt will definitely start Henshaw at 13. Who will play at 12 is either McCloskey or Fitz. Fitz, imo, is by far a better distributor than McCloskey (even though some people here say he "lacks awareness" which is utter ****) with better feet and adds more balance to that combo than McCloskey/Henshaw. Also, Fitz is a great defender (even if McCloskey is marginally better) so it's not like they're shoving a lightweight, crap defender (such as Earls) into the centre and won't be lacking any physicality.

 

[munstermuffin]

Everyone's allowed their opinion, but if anyone thinks that Fitzgerald is anything less than decent at either the wing or centre, their opinion should be discredited. I just can't fathom how so few people here don't rate him (more than likely because they haven't seen him play in more than 3 games over the last few seasons).

Henshaw has played twice at fullback and twice at 13 for Connacht this season, in which he wasn't in spectacular form, unlike Fitzgerald. The McCloskey/Marshall axis has been class but Fitz is a better 13 than Marshall and Schmidt will definitely start Henshaw at 13. Who will play at 12 is either McCloskey or Fitz. Fitz, imo, is by far a better distributor than McCloskey (even though some people here say he "lacks awareness" which is utter ****) with better feet and adds more balance to that combo than McCloskey/Henshaw. Also, Fitz is a great defender (even if McCloskey is marginally better) so it's not like they're shoving a lightweight, crap defender (such as Earls) into the centre and won't be lacking any physicality.

Well I'm on the fence but well not bias but I think as you say everyone is entitled to their opinion and if so many question Fitz as a centre then maybe they
can't all be wrong. I think if you've watched closely you'll pick out a good few instances where Luke Fitz hasn't passed to the oncoming runners or didn't see the pass. That's what I mean by lacking awareness. And again your highlighting Earls who a) is not a 12 and only a back up 13 and b) was statistically 1 of our best defenders at RWC so that point again isn't really comparable. And I'm speaking as someone who has see Luke play a lot over the seasons and know my rugby. I'm not saying McCloskey, Marshall or Henshaw etc don't have flaws but your trying to make it out the Luke Fitz is playing worldclass stuff at 12 and has no flaws. He isn't and he does. Yes he is deservingly in the mix and if he starts it would be on merit but equally the rest are in same situation.

FWIW - Henshaw played in RWC at centre for Ireland to a good standard and in 6Nations at high level to easily establish himself as a top centre. And if I remember Henshaw has moved from 15 to centre in 1 game at least but again he's proven to be an excellent 12 so far for us and equally good 13 when playing there too.

 

[profitius]

Everyone's allowed their opinion, but if anyone thinks that Fitzgerald is anything less than decent at either the wing or centre, their opinion should be discredited. I just can't fathom how so few people here don't rate him (more than likely because they haven't seen him play in more than 3 games over the last few seasons).

Henshaw has played twice at fullback and twice at 13 for Connacht this season, in which he wasn't in spectacular form, unlike Fitzgerald. The McCloskey/Marshall axis has been class but Fitz is a better 13 than Marshall and Schmidt will definitely start Henshaw at 13. Who will play at 12 is either McCloskey or Fitz. Fitz, imo, is by far a better distributor than McCloskey (even though some people here say he "lacks awareness" which is utter ****) with better feet and adds more balance to that combo than McCloskey/Henshaw. Also, Fitz is a great defender (even if McCloskey is marginally better) so it's not like they're shoving a lightweight, crap defender (such as Earls) into the centre and won't be lacking any physicality.

I like Fitzgerald more as a center because he has great ability to step and create space in crowded areas. However you can't say he deserves to start. McCloskey has been the player of the season and Marshall not far behind. Why break up that combination? I'd prefer Marshall anyway because he offers creativity. Henshaw was one of the players who preformed well in the world cup so he has also credit in the bank.


I think Fitz will get plenty of game time during the 6 nations because I presume there'll be rotation.

 

[profitius]

Looks more likely McCloskey will be starting against Wales with possibly Henshaw outside him.

Henshaw is at 13 for Connacht while no Payne for Ulster. That more than likely rules Payne out of playing 13 next week and Henshaw hasn't played 12 since the world cup.

If Payne isn't at 13, it also raises the possibility that he'll be the fullback.

 

[sixesauldman]

You think? Les Kiss on record as expecting Payne/,Henshaw, though would love to see McCloskey in Wales game ,sparks flying.

 

[big ginger 8]

I think it's a move that anything can be read into it.

It could be that Henshaw's one game in a while against Einisi wasn't near enough to get him ready for international rugby and he's just playing a game and given that he's played 13 for Connacht while playing 12 for Ireland the status quo is unchanged.

It could also well be that Henshaw will be playing 13 for Ireland so someone else, presumably McCloskey but there are other possibilities, is playing 12.

It may also of course suggest Payne may play 15 but basically expecting it to tell us anything is probably a bit much.


http://www.the42.ie/joe-schmidt-brian-odriscoll-garry-ringrose-2573307-Jan2016/

Interesting article here about Schmidt's approach to bringing through players. It's great because it's mostly direct quotes.

Show's the thoroughness of the man that he name checks Peter Dooley who would have been Leinster's 5th choice loosehead at the start of the year.

 

[munstermuffin]

Dooley will be in contention in next 18 months. In my eyes Healy will be fighting to be in 23 in next 2 years. And that's not slamming Healy just more recognition Leinster have great props coming through.