The REAL story...why the AB's lost!

[Ripper]

<div class='quotemain'>

And why does nobody tip the hat to France's first try? Awesome.

But NZ should have won. How to fix that? GG gives a great analysis (with some great follow up posts), but NZ posters just want to ***** about the man who's probably going to be blowing the whistle at the next RWC final. And the Saffers will win that one too! Then shall ye know reeeeal pain. [/b]

Awesome? Once again, How was that try "awesome". They scored on a simple overlap when the All Blacks had a man in the bin. Canada scored more impressive tries this year against us... with the All Blacks actually having 15 men on the field. You'd probably get a heart attack watching some if the tries the Blues have scored over the years. And of course it's marginal in your eye's, you also thought that Italy were suddenly on par with us.

And to all those who harp on about Mauger still - all I have to say is put your head in the nearest the oven door and slam it several times, then go and watch of the first 2 All Black Tri Nations game's this year.
[/b]

It wasn't a simple overlap - they built that try from deep with intelligent movement and recycles: irresistible force. One the ABs would have been proud of. And BTW - Canada lost.

As DarkmanX would say:
:masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana: :masturbanana:

Anyway, it's a serious question - what must the ABs do to stop the Saffers in NZ 11? How can they improve? Losing two outhalfs in the late stages of one match was a *****. But SA still looked like the more complete team. And if they manage their player development they'll have a selection pool that rivals the islanders.
[/b][/quote]

The real question you should be asking is how the Spingboks are going to stop us in 2011 - Henry was 6 out of 9 against the Boks... including a 4 zip record in New Zealand... and funnily enough, the next World Cup is in... New Zealand. I don't think the Boks have won on our soil this century even?

And once again, the try was nothing special. Any team that was worth their salt (rules out Ireland I guess though) would've and should've scored that try, McAlister's effort blew it out of the water, and his one involved doing it on his own against a defence with 15 men on the field.

 

[Prestwick]

Considering that everyone was miles off in their predictions for the World Cup (even the Bok fans were way off in how South Africa were to get to the final) I'd say that we put in a provisional ban for predicting anything until after the World Cup 2011 final because its obvious that none of us know what we're talking about.

 

[Gay-Guy]

Simply relying on divine inspiration and spontanious rugby just doesn't cut it sometimes in the knock out stages of the most important rugby tournament on the planet.
[/b]

Thats the thing....the "divine" intervention the AB's relied on was Graham Henry because he had trained them to follow orers when they should have just looked at each other and said "WTF!!!"



It is funny how during the 12 months leading up to the RWC the NZ public would often watch the AB's and wonder what the hell were they doing when they were in positions to hammer the last few nails in the coffin and close out a match yet would often let the opposition back in. Rustenberg in 2006 was a prime example.



Tana left the team and no one stepped into his shoes. McCaw really is not a leader of men and may have been put there because there was no one else....Jerry Collins holds more of a physical presence than McCaw.



The brains trust for NZ was sitting in the stands behind laptops when they should have developed some leaders and tacticians on the field who could think for themselves.

 

[Ripper]

Did Kellehar come off due to injury or was it a straight substitute?

Leonard didn't disgrace himself, but Kellehar would've been better served staying on, especially when Evans went off.

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'> Simply relying on divine inspiration and spontanious rugby just doesn't cut it sometimes in the knock out stages of the most important rugby tournament on the planet.
[/b]

Thats the thing....the "divine" intervention the AB's relied on was Graham Henry because he had trained them to follow orers when they should have just looked at each other and said "WTF!!!"



It is funny how during the 12 months leading up to the RWC the NZ public would often watch the AB's and wonder what the hell were they doing when they were in positions to hammer the last few nails in the coffin and close out a match yet would often let the opposition back in. Rustenberg in 2006 was a prime example.



Tana left the team and no one stepped into his shoes. McCaw really is not a leader of men and may have been put there because there was no one else....Jerry Collins holds more of a physical presence than McCaw.



The brains trust for NZ was sitting in the stands behind laptops when they should have developed some leaders and tacticians on the field who could think for themselves.

[/b][/quote]

You should have cloned Martin Johnson and Lawrence Dallaglio to be honest.

 

[sambãd5]

You should have cloned Martin Johnson and Lawrence Dallaglio to be honest.
[/b]

or of course tana.



oh wait, we did. MA'A NONU!!! heres a question. if nonu was playing at 13, he would have had the experiance which was lacking from the ice man, with his benifits of strength and speed. thats 2 out of 2 wcs when the non-selection of nonu has lost us a wc...

 

[Ripper]

Come on Sammy Boy.

Need I remind you what happened the last time we saw Nonners in a proper test match? He got ripped to shreds by Jamie Noon and a Rookie at Twickenham. And while the French Centres are highly overated, they are still a step above the Noon/Allen combo. We did not lose the World Cup because we didn't choose Nonu, just because he's a beast on the Playstation game doesn't mean he is worth diddly squat in real life.

McAlister / Toeava was the way to go, McAlister made the French his prison ***** early on in the game before the sin binning, and we saw what that combo did before in the past (Toeava looked strong with the ball in hand with the couple of touches he had in the Quarter Final).\

And why the hell would we need to clone Lawrence Dallaglio? Rodney would've ripped him to shreds judging by the form he was in this year.

 

[Gay-Guy]

Nonu, Toeava, MacAlister.......all ineffective when they have no direction where to go.

 

[Ripper]

The other two aren't prone to self destructing though, at least to the extent Nonu has in the past.

 

[Gay-Guy]

The other two aren't prone to self destructing though, at least to the extent Nonu has in the past. [/b]

Yeah MacAlister and Toeava really came on last year. The Blues lost the plot after Toeava got injured in that semi final. MacAlister was also standing up in that French game. Both players have had shocking moments in their early careers but now they are coming to the fore. They would have been brilliant with Grant Fox directing them. Therein lies out problems.....midfield backs follow orders....we needed Carter or whoever to give the right ones for each moment....not GH giving an order that gets to the players 1 minute later. MacAlister and Toeava being unleashed with Roko, Svivi, and Mils finishing have to have direction and guidance when to do their stuff. Unleash them in situations where they obviously will get hammered will only create doubt and hesitation and will pick away at their confidence...especially considering that two of them (Toeava, Sivivatu) are still developing their self confidence.



Maybe Carter will never be the type who will instill confidence into the players around him. Perhaps we need a new type of first five who has "command" as an essential attribute (lol...EA Rugby!).

 

[I Bleed Black]

The real reason the All Blacks lost is cos................ they didn't win !!!!!! Phew !! summed up in one line - too easy.

 

[sambãd5]

The real reason the All Blacks lost is cos................ they didn't win !!!!!! Phew !! summed up in one line - too easy. [/b]

anyone else getting sick of these "because france was the better team" reasons for the win? not saying it wasnt but this is the talking balls section. this is the pub of the trf-ville. if you go to the pub, where there is in-depth conversation about a teams loss, and you say, becasue the other team was better, you will get kicked stait back out. this thread is one of the best and most intelligent ive seen in a while. its obviouslly worth talking about. maybies, what if's and could haves is the whole point of a forum. a conversation doesnt have to end a day after the game is played.

 

[stormmaster1]

<div class='quotemain'> The real reason the All Blacks lost is cos................ they didn't win !!!!!! Phew !! summed up in one line - too easy. [/b]

anyone else getting sick of these "because france was the better team" reasons for the win? not saying it wasnt but this is the talking balls section. this is the pub of the trf-ville. if you go to the pub, where there is in-depth conversation about a teams loss, and you say, becasue the other team was better, you will get kicked stait back out. this thread is one of the best and most intelligent ive seen in a while. its obviouslly worth talking about. maybies, what if's and could haves is the whole point of a forum. a conversation doesnt have to end a day after the game is played.

[/b][/quote]



And if it comes down to simple things like team A was better than team B, then we get to discuss why and in what ways they were so. Lets face it, it was the biggest shock of the world cup, the most controvesial match of the world cup. It requires in depth discussion. As rugby fans we would be negligent not to.

 

[I Bleed Black]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'> The real reason the All Blacks lost is cos................ they didn't win !!!!!! Phew !! summed up in one line - too easy. [/b]

anyone else getting sick of these "because france was the better team" reasons for the win? not saying it wasnt but this is the talking balls section. this is the pub of the trf-ville. if you go to the pub, where there is in-depth conversation about a teams loss, and you say, becasue the other team was better, you will get kicked stait back out. this thread is one of the best and most intelligent ive seen in a while. its obviouslly worth talking about. maybies, what if's and could haves is the whole point of a forum. a conversation doesnt have to end a day after the game is played.

[/b][/quote]



And if it comes down to simple things like team A was better than team B, then we get to discuss why and in what ways they were so. Lets face it, it was the biggest shock of the world cup, the most controvesial match of the world cup. It requires in depth discussion. As rugby fans we would be negligent not to.
[/b][/quote]

Sorry guys - my bad. Im just one for looking forward, instead staying on the round-about till I throw up.

How far do you go back through the history of the recent all blacks to find the factor than lost them the game? If we aren't careful this will end up being the longest postmortem in recent history. The All Blacks loss can be blamed on nothing (i.e. a game they just didnt win because they weren't good enough on the day) or we can all find 30-40 things that lost us the game. I suppose it all comes down how you look at things. Me personally?? Bring on the Super 14 and some more tests this year. Always looking forward, but remembering where we've been.

Anyways I'll let you guys get back to it - sorry for the intrusion.

 

[Gay-Guy]

<div class='quotemain'>
<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'> The real reason the All Blacks lost is cos................ they didn't win !!!!!! Phew !! summed up in one line - too easy. [/b]

anyone else getting sick of these "because france was the better team" reasons for the win? not saying it wasnt but this is the talking balls section. this is the pub of the trf-ville. if you go to the pub, where there is in-depth conversation about a teams loss, and you say, becasue the other team was better, you will get kicked stait back out. this thread is one of the best and most intelligent ive seen in a while. its obviouslly worth talking about. maybies, what if's and could haves is the whole point of a forum. a conversation doesnt have to end a day after the game is played.

[/b][/quote]



And if it comes down to simple things like team A was better than team B, then we get to discuss why and in what ways they were so. Lets face it, it was the biggest shock of the world cup, the most controvesial match of the world cup. It requires in depth discussion. As rugby fans we would be negligent not to.
[/b][/quote]

Sorry guys - my bad. Im just one for looking forward, instead staying on the round-about till I throw up.

How far do you go back through the history of the recent all blacks to find the factor than lost them the game? If we aren't careful this will end up being the longest postmortem in recent history. The All Blacks loss can be blamed on nothing (i.e. a game they just didnt win because they weren't good enough on the day) or we can all find 30-40 things that lost us the game. I suppose it all comes down how you look at things. Me personally?? Bring on the Super 14 and some more tests this year. Always looking forward, but remembering where we've been.

Anyways I'll let you guys get back to it - sorry for the intrusion. [/b][/quote]



Hey bro all good all good Here I'll buy you a beer..don't leave! Yeah we Kiwis are also looking forward to more rugby this year...life goes on.....S14 is coming up this year. I for one can't wait to see what happens in the S14 now that the NZ teams are focussed fully on it and we are wanting some payback....actually the Aussies are wanting some payback too....and with the S.A players on a high after their RWC victory they will be wanting to continue that...so the S14 should be great!



However...it does seem unfair that the NZRFU does not reveal to the NZ public their findings on what went wrong. As a result AB fans at every RWC defeat simply have to go through limbo land walking around confused and bewildered with the shocking failure. Maybe the NZRFU does not want other countries to learn from our failure. Whatever the reason it does create for a little while a very disappointed AB fan base who experience the pain a little bit LONGER than they perhaps would have if they were given some official concrete reasons.



Perhaps debate and threads like this are simply to help us "heal" better and in shorter time frame. The quicker we find reasons for defeat the quicker we can move on. Even better I would say that the quicker we can find reasons for defeat that point to OUR failings that are within OUR control no matter how far fetched they are....they BETTER we can heal. If we find "external" reasons for our defeat that are outside of our control then it is sometimes harder to deal with because it is outside of our reach. Mr Barnes "strange refereeing decisions" are reasons for defeat which we cannot really control....to accept that is to accept the fact that AB victory or defeat is therefore out of our control.....and that mentality is the beginning of the end for the NZ psyche which often and perhaps sometimes arrogantly assumes that we are the best in the world.



NZ rugby must never put the reasons for defeat on a ref or the other team EVEN IF THAT WAS THE ACTUAL CASE! NZ rugby must always take OWNERSHIP of its defeat...because to take ownership for our defeat is to continue to believe that next time we can put it right. Once we start saying it was the ref or the other team was better or the other team had a sudden 20 minute burst of divine rugby intervention...then implicit say that we are no longer the masters of our destiny...and once that happens we will begin to slide to second tier status.



Look at Samoa.....they often say when the AB' beat them that the AB's were the better team rather than "what did we do wrong and what can we fix up for next time so we don't lose".



I am more willing to accept an "It was our fault why we lost" reason for defeat as it puts the ball back in our court and actually empowers us because we realise we can therefore fix it. To say the other team was better or the ref was blind takes the power away from us because we can't change the other team and we can't change the refs style....it is to admit that the only way we can win is for the other team to change and get bad or for the ref to change and wear glasses....but what if the other team never changes...or gets better...or the ref takes us again in a quarterfinal? Are we doomed?



Our opponents get better or worse...refs make good and bad calls....let us as New Zealanders not care about these things for our success. Let us look inwardly at what we did wrong and analyse it to death and fix it up so we have less chance of getting ambushed again!



I know this sounds crazy but a lot of my analysis of AB rugby nowadays comes from my experiences playing Rugby 06 (Rugby 08 is a step back so I don't bother with it). Despite all I know I still get "ambushed" and lose to a new opponent when I play them for the first time. Knowing too much is not the yardstick for guaranteed victory....there is no actual guarantee of victory when you play someone. This is because I believe rugby is truly a GUESSING game...no one really knows what to expect and often by the time you realise it the game is too far gone and 80 mins is up on the clock. I believe I can only soundly beat people after I have been playing them for a while and realise what their game play is like but until then it is all a guess and I can lose games unexpectedly. Yet in all my games I have only ever thought "gee this guys style is superior to mine" with ONE opponent....everyone else I have sensed my style was superior even when i would be losing. What I am trying to say is that the best I can hope for is to have a higher percentage of guaranteed victories but I can never have an absolute percentage. What I in Rugby 2006 and I sense perhaps even the All Blacks in real life need to work on is DISCOVERING MUCH MORE QUICKLY WHAT THE OPPOSITION IS REALLY DOING right then and there rather than discovering it too late or not at all or even worse thinking they are doing something which clearly they are not. Like the AB's I actually believe that I have closest style of play to the complete knowledge of what has been discovered on Rugby 2006...but that counts for nothing...it is the ability to figure out which ones of these techniques to pull out and when to pull it out ACCORDING TO WHAT THE OPPOSITION IS DOING!



AND THE ONLY WAY FOR THE ALL BLACKS WITH ALL THEIR KNOW HOW AND STUFF TO FIND OUT QUICKER WHAT THE OPPOSITION IS DOING IS TO HAVE THINKERS.....PLAYER/S ON THE FIELD WHO THINK LIKE A GENERAL!

 

[Prestwick]

<div class='quotemain'> The real reason the All Blacks lost is cos................ they didn't win !!!!!! Phew !! summed up in one line - too easy. [/b]

anyone else getting sick of these "because france was the better team" reasons for the win? not saying it wasnt but this is the talking balls section. this is the pub of the trf-ville. if you go to the pub, where there is in-depth conversation about a teams loss, and you say, becasue the other team was better, you will get kicked stait back out. this thread is one of the best and most intelligent ive seen in a while. its obviouslly worth talking about. maybies, what if's and could haves is the whole point of a forum. a conversation doesnt have to end a day after the game is played.

[/b][/quote]

Sometimes Sinbad, it really is as simple as "France wanted it more." There are times were the odds are stacked against you and you somehow pluck up the courage to stand up and give it one more crack even if it was suicidal to do so. Thats how Canada took Vimy Ridge, how 2 PARA took Goose Green (I seriously mean no offense, for the 12th and 25th Infantry regiments fought extraordinarily well on the day) and on a slightly less morbid level that is how Munster beat the All Blacks, how Glasgow beat Biarritz and so on.

Sometimes, it really does boil down to one side wanting it more than the other and that is what tips it in their favour.

 

[sambãd5]

yeah but then we would have several pages on why they won etc...

IBB - sorry if that was directed at you, it was along with the 3-4 other people with simmilar posts...

 

[I Bleed Black]

yeah but then we would have several pages on why they won etc...

IBB - sorry if that was directed at you, it was along with the 3-4 other people with simmilar posts...
[/b]

Mate - you are probably right!! But the bragging rights come with winning and we haven't earned that yet. Although sometimes leading up to world cups you'd think we had!!

I was a bit premature - after reading more of the thread, I do respect the angle and the posts. Personally, I moved on a long time ago and am ready for the usual chokers ribbing from the likes of that rapscallion Prestwick Inc. (Bring it on!!!) Cos we all know that deep down The ABs are better than.....

Don't worry bout me brother - Contrary to popular belief we are breed with pretty thick skin down south as Im sure a fellow Southerner can understand!!

 

[Prestwick]

IBB we could have a special day where we all pretend that the All Blacks won the world cup. I'm sure me, Mite and co could all photoshop a picture of the All Black squad victorious on an open top bus and Dan Carter holding the Webb Ellis trophy aloft.

Myself, Bokmagic and some French guy could all bemoan how New Zealand outdid us in the end and how if we had done this, that and the other in the quarters, semis and the final we could have beaten you.

And you could be all modest in defeat and say "do not fret my friends, it was such a tight contest that only the best team could have won on the day...and it did, by jove it did."

And then the next day we can get back to the choke-fest. :lol:

 

[candybum]

GG, did you study Sport in uni? lol very insightful