The Leinster thread

[Peat]

If there's one thing I will bang on about until the cows come home in terms of Irish rugby, its the necessity of player development. The provinces live and die by it. Their success came from hugely impressive player development that bred teams with ridiculous amounts of experience, talent and depth; their downturn coincides with age and injury stripping away what was there and insufficient numbers of player of the same calibre standing up to take their place. This is only multiplied by the fact that, as far as I see, the average Irish player regards representing their province with near the same fervour others reserve for representing their country. There is very little in rugby that will substitute for building a team around a core of 10-15 very talented players who've played together for ages and have a huge amount of passion and pride in what they do; that cohesion and desire draws the others in.

If you agree with the above, then a coach that fails to do much in the way of youth development should always be on a slender thread when at the Irish provinces, regardless of their other talents.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Leinster and Wasps are about level this season but they really shouldn't be. As it stands both teams are 4th in their domestic leagues and have a winner takes all match to top the group in Europe. The difference is that this time last year Leinster were top of the league and in the same position in Europe with the team that would become English champions, the French champions and a good Ospreys outfit whereas Wasps weren't in the top tier of Europe while sitting mid table in their domestic league. Wasps are very much an improved team and Leinster have regressed considerably but considering Leinster's current player pool compared to last year this regression shouldn't have happened.

Leinster lost Brian O'Driscoll and Leo Cullen, replaced by Ben Te'o who's been unlucky with injuries, Luke Fitzgerald who's been Leinster's player of the season thus far and Kane Douglas, a capped Wallaby who's form has been inconsistent. Add Mike Ross', Isaac Boss', Eoin Reddan's (to an extent) and Gordan D'Arcy's declines, Jimmy Gopperth's loss of form and Madigan's lack of opportunity in the 10 shirt, Noel Reid's, Luke McGrath's and Jack Conan's improvements to the equation this regression shouldn't be as extreme or have happened at all. With injuries factored in the picture is vastly different. (Off the top of my head) Long term injuries to Sean O'Brien, Kevin McLaughlan and Cian Healy, Medium term to Marty Moore, Rhys Ruddock, Jack McGrath, Dave Kearney, Zane Kirchener, Ben Te'o, Richardt Strauss and Shane Jennings and a plethora of shorter term injuries have affected the season incredibly, the question this raises are if these injuries are a big enough factor for worse performances and results this season in comparison to last, where injuries were also an issue but not as extensive. I most people would agree that when you can field a team with upwards of 13 internationals every week, barring those interrupted by Ireland camps, this shouldn't happen. When the players are there, many of whom were in form for Ireland in Autumn, there's a problem when a decline like this happens and it's highly unlikely that it's root is anywhere other than the coaching set up.

As for the improvement of other teams being a factor, that hasn't happened in the Pro 12, in fact it's quite the opposite.

So this is why us Leinster fans on here consider Pool 2 to be weak, not because Leinster are better than the other sides but because they should be.

I may have missed a few retirements or injuries but I'm pretty sure it's nothing so considerable as to make my argument redundant.

Pretty hard to disagree with any of that mate.

I'd forgotten about Leo "The ugliest player in history Cullen" - he retired? I would have thought Toner's current status as now one of the (definitely top 5) northern hemisphere locks would have made up for him - plus Kane.
But not to bang on about experience by O Driscoll, Cullen, Sexton, and then the injuries to O'Brien and Healy - that's a lot of experience lost. Think about that crazy Heineken cup final against Northamptom - I severely doubt that comeback could have happened with the aforementioned.

The Souther hemisphere signings also haven't been quite so savey as once they were - Kirchner? Meh, no replacement for Nacewa.
Just went on the Leinster rugby Wiki and just the national uniformity never ceases to amaze me; only 5 non-Irish in the ENTIRE squad.

Interesting point @Peat about the provincial identity. In many ways you'd think (and results agree) that its hard to compete against such rooted identity as a rugby squad. What an idea to draw upon. By comparison, the English clubs, even those we support, are just flimsy constructions, as evidenced by our arbitrary move to Coventry. An even more artificial construction is the Super Rugby francises.

 

[Peat]

IRFU's rules that. Munster, Leinster, Ulster, all only allowed 5 NIQs - one of whom must be a project player. Some murmurings that there needs to be a change there - me, I'm not so sure.

 

[Tony Manx]

I am not sure that this is the right thread but one has to wonder with the lack of cash from the IRFU and the changes in the TV rights from the new European arrangements whether the debate on Irish media over the weekend may be relevant as to whether the irish clubs are going to be able to compete in Europe as they have done so brilliantly over the last number of years?

Certainly, Munster do not seem to be the powerhouse that they were and it will be very interesting to watch Leinster's progression (or lack of) in this year's competition.

Please do not think I am trying to being negative or critical more very sad that Munster gave such a poor showing this year and wondering whether Leinster can be seen as a challenger this year. If the European competition is to be worth its salt, we certainly need strong Irish competitive teams as the Welsh teams no longer really are and the Scottish teams are trying but.................

 

[profitius]

IRFU's rules that. Munster, Leinster, Ulster, all only allowed 5 NIQs - one of whom must be a project player. Some murmurings that there needs to be a change there - me, I'm not so sure.

Cutting it to 4 next season.

 

[big ginger 8]

Which is being eroded as MOC refuses to give youngsters any kind of chance unless he is without options.

What happens when Jennings/Reddan/Boss/D'Arcy retire? Jennings will be replaced by Murphy and Ruddock (both non MOC), D'Arcy will be replaced by... Madigan probably and Reddan/Boss? MOC will probably look to sign Petey Stringer.

That right there is gross hyperbole. MO'C's last 23 contained both Moore and Furlong ahead of the fit incumbent Irish tighthead, Conan ahead of Ryan and McGrath ahead of Boss. So he clearly doesn't refuse to give youth a chance without injuries. The injuries argument is a very flimsy one really as how do we know he wouldn't have given them a chance anyway? Cheika and Schmidt also had their hands forced at times. MO'C gave George Ford his debut at 17 and started him in the Aviva Final at 19, he's clearly not afraid of youth.

I have a number of problems with the Mole's article. Firstly the timing of the article and it's subject matter is terrible. The time that young players get their chance is when the internationals are away for the 6N, which hasn't happened yet but which influence Cheika and Schmidt's stats positively and MO'C's negatively. Why pick the age of 23 to classify a player as young? Probably again because it changes the statistics to suit his point of view. I know plenty of people who classify young players as u25. He doesn't count sub appearances which is where young players get the majority of their minutes from. This discounts players like Ed Byrne. Fair enough you might say but he sure as hell counts them for the other coaches. Also the way he counts players who were given their debut by a coach as their player is a bit iffy. Ruddock, Reid and Moore are all counted as Schmidt players but they are very much MO'C players imo as that's who they had their breakout seasons under. If you told anyone before last season that Reid would be an Irish international they'd have laughed in your face, same with Dave Kearney. He also praises Cheika for picking the likes of Fitzgerald, Kearney and Heaslip as he should be to an extent but he ignores the fact that it's much easier to play the young talents over the average Celtic League players from that time than the 23 of internationals that exists today. So yeah those are a few of the problems I have with the article.

As for those replacements you ask about, Ruddock is already a starter (and really is a MO'C player by my basis) so why on earth would he be replacing a sub. Unfortunately there's probably no one with Jennings nous in Ireland, so that won't be replaced but at 7 we have: SO'B, Murphy, Ryan, Leavy and VDF. Four of whom are u25. 7 is not a problem position for us. The highly rated Gilsenan had to leave because of the queue. Any coach would struggle to give all of them game time but 4 of them have started a game this year. Madigan is currently playing 12 because of his goalkicking and because he doesn't have enough control to play 10. With Sexton back next year he'll play 10. Otherwise both Reid and Te'o look up to the task and both Daly and Crosbie will be good 12s. Neither Cheika or Schmidt managed to produce a 9. The last good Leinster produced 9 may well in fact be Jonny Moloney. Anyway clearly the answer is McGrath. Cooney is also getting gametime in Connacht. The current u20s captain is a Leinster 9.

Basically I'd suggest that our depth is not being eroded in anywhere near the manner you or a certain group of fans may feel.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Pretty hard to disagree with any of that mate.

I'd forgotten about Leo "The ugliest player in history Cullen" - he retired? I would have thought Toner's current status as now one of the (definitely top 5) northern hemisphere locks would have made up for him - plus Kane.
But not to bang on about experience by O Driscoll, Cullen, Sexton, and then the injuries to O'Brien and Healy - that's a lot of experience lost. Think about that crazy Heineken cup final against Northamptom - I severely doubt that comeback could have happened with the aforementioned.

The Souther hemisphere signings also haven't been quite so savey as once they were - Kirchner? Meh, no replacement for Nacewa.
Just went on the Leinster rugby Wiki and just the national uniformity never ceases to amaze me; only 5 non-Irish in the ENTIRE squad.

Interesting point @Peat about the provincial identity. In many ways you'd think (and results agree) that its hard to compete against such rooted identity as a rugby squad. What an idea to draw upon. By comparison, the English clubs, even those we support, are just flimsy constructions, as evidenced by our arbitrary move to Coventry. An even more artificial construction is the Super Rugby francises.

Very much so, I wouldn't expect the performances of two or three seasons ago because that was a special group of players. Quite easily the best squad of players European rugby has ever seen. Last year was actually quite impressive considering the loss of quality but it hasn't been sustained one bit.

 

[Feicarsinn]

That right there is gross hyperbole. MO'C's last 23 contained both Moore and Furlong ahead of the fit incumbent Irish tighthead, Conan ahead of Ryan and McGrath ahead of Boss. So he clearly doesn't refuse to give youth a chance without injuries. The injuries argument is a very flimsy one really as how do we know he wouldn't have given them a chance anyway? Cheika and Schmidt also had their hands forced at times. MO'C gave George Ford his debut at 17 and started him in the Aviva Final at 19, he's clearly not afraid of youth.

I have a number of problems with the Mole's article. Firstly the timing of the article and it's subject matter is terrible. The time that young players get their chance is when the internationals are away for the 6N, which hasn't happened yet but which influence Cheika and Schmidt's stats positively and MO'C's negatively. Why pick the age of 23 to classify a player as young? Probably again because it changes the statistics to suit his point of view. I know plenty of people who classify young players as u25. He doesn't count sub appearances which is where young players get the majority of their minutes from. This discounts players like Ed Byrne. Fair enough you might say but he sure as hell counts them for the other coaches. Also the way he counts players who were given their debut by a coach as their player is a bit iffy. Ruddock, Reid and Moore are all counted as Schmidt players but they are very much MO'C players imo as that's who they had their breakout seasons under. If you told anyone before last season that Reid would be an Irish international they'd have laughed in your face, same with Dave Kearney. He also praises Cheika for picking the likes of Fitzgerald, Kearney and Heaslip as he should be to an extent but he ignores the fact that it's much easier to play the young talents over the average Celtic League players from that time than the 23 of internationals that exists today. So yeah those are a few of the problems I have with the article.

As for those replacements you ask about, Ruddock is already a starter (and really is a MO'C player by my basis) so why on earth would he be replacing a sub. Unfortunately there's probably no one with Jennings nous in Ireland, so that won't be replaced but at 7 we have: SO'B, Murphy, Ryan, Leavy and VDF. Four of whom are u25. 7 is not a problem position for us. The highly rated Gilsenan had to leave because of the queue. Any coach would struggle to give all of them game time but 4 of them have started a game this year. Madigan is currently playing 12 because of his goalkicking and because he doesn't have enough control to play 10. With Sexton back next year he'll play 10. Otherwise both Reid and Te'o look up to the task and both Daly and Crosbie will be good 12s. Neither Cheika or Schmidt managed to produce a 9. The last good Leinster produced 9 may well in fact be Jonny Moloney. Anyway clearly the answer is McGrath. Cooney is also getting gametime in Connacht. The current u20s captain is a Leinster 9.

Basically I'd suggest that our depth is not being eroded in anywhere near the manner you or a certain group of fans may feel.

I agree that our depth hasn't been eroded that much thanks to the high quality products we're getting out of the academy. However, that should mean that we should be seeing better results. The side that went to Treviso should have had more than enough about it to win comfortably as an example.

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IRFU's rules that. Munster, Leinster, Ulster, all only allowed 5 NIQs - one of whom must be a project player. Some murmurings that there needs to be a change there - me, I'm not so sure.

5 is plenty. The need to be quality signings however. There's little point investing your NIQ slots in players like Nick Williams. Even Louis Ludik and Franco van der Merwe are below the standard that should be aimed for (not picking on Ulster, just using examples you'd be very familiar with.) The signings that have to be made need to be of the calibre we saw about 5 years ago - high standard internationals like Rocky Elsom, Jean DeVilliers, BJ Botha, and so on. Obviously the French have changed the game in that respect in the mean time, however this just shows the need to get some form of foreign investment into the provinces if they are to compete consistently in Europe.

 

[munstermuffin]

I agree that our depth hasn't been eroded that much thanks to the high quality products we're getting out of the academy. However, that should mean that we should be seeing better results. The side that went to Treviso should have had more than enough about it to win comfortably as an example.

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5 is plenty. The need to be quality signings however. There's little point investing your NIQ slots in players like Nick Williams. Even Louis Ludik and Franco van der Merwe are below the standard that should be aimed for (not picking on Ulster, just using examples you'd be very familiar with.) The signings that have to be made need to be of the calibre we saw about 5 years ago - high standard internationals like Rocky Elsom, Jean DeVilliers, BJ Botha, and so on. Obviously the French have changed the game in that respect in the mean time, however this just shows the need to get some form of foreign investment into the provinces if they are to compete consistently in Europe.

On this. I think people fail to realise even when your a top academy guy it's still a big jump to playing a Treviso etc especially when it's usually packed with a lot of 2nd or 3rd choice guys. Leinster peaked there talent at around 09-11 much like Munster did 05-07 (Yes I know we won in 08) and well it's hard to keep them levels up.

On 2nd part Feic your bang on. All provinces are "settling" for NIQs where before it wa always top talent in. Yes gambles like a project of Stander Payne and Strauss worked but for every 1 of them there was a lot of Nick Williams, Peter Borlaise and guys like that.
It's looking like it will be 3+1 next year

 

[Peat]

5 is plenty. The need to be quality signings however. There's little point investing your NIQ slots in players like Nick Williams. Even Louis Ludik and Franco van der Merwe are below the standard that should be aimed for (not picking on Ulster, just using examples you'd be very familiar with.) The signings that have to be made need to be of the calibre we saw about 5 years ago - high standard internationals like Rocky Elsom, Jean DeVilliers, BJ Botha, and so on. Obviously the French have changed the game in that respect in the mean time, however this just shows the need to get some form of foreign investment into the provinces if they are to compete consistently in Europe.

Williams came when we thought we still had Fez and that Wilson would be as fit as he was at Saints. Both of those things didn't happen and our pretty useful second-line wrecking ball became a front line player and, well, yeah, not good enough.

VdM was probably one of the three best locks moving to a NH club this year; got to accept that bringing in players right before a World Cup gives you a limited pick. Personally I think he's a better player than is being given credit for, him and Ludik; injuries + Doak has stymied everyone, they looked really good when we had Kiss in.

Which is not to excuse Ulster but more to point that its not as simple as quality. Sometimes quality isn't available, not just due to the money. Sometimes a province needs a reliable, versatile second liner more than they need a big name. If all of the provinces had 5 big name nailed on starters, that bites seriously into the amount of elite gametime the Irish lads are getting. The right amount and quality of NIQs will, imo, vary from province to province. Your back to back HEC teams certainly didn't have 5 top NIQs and it would have been ridiculous if they had.

Right now. at least at Ulster, the insistence on Irish squad players isn't working as it just means our squad is filled with not-good enough journeymen of advancing years. Ideally, the restriction means a province is forced into playing and developing youth, but for whatever reason a long succession of Ulster coaches have refused to do that in the pack. Coupled with restocking on NIQs at the wrong moment and the Ulster squad doesn't look good on paper compared to what it was. A small infusion of SH players who could do a better job than guys like Stevenson and McComish, at a cheaper price, might have got us over a hump for a couple of years. Or maybe not, and the next couple of years will be spent actually building some depth in the pack, and put us into a stronger position going forwards. It'll be a bumpy couple of years, but we'll probably be better for it.

Which sorta segues into something I believe strongly - you can skimp on players, but you can't skimp on coaches. I know you've got to give inexperienced coaches a try sometimes, but Ulster have been trying to win things with second-rate head coaches for a long, long time now, and unsurprisingly it hasn't worked. Looking back, I reckon Anscombe was the biggest mistake Humph ever made. I think the IRFU should ringfence the coaching budget to prevent provinces from trying to do it on the cheap and that, if they go abroad, they should be looking for the best.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I'm not a fan of the style of rugby Matt O'Connor has had Leinster playing for much of his tenure. However it should be noted that Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Jordi Murphy, Dominic Ryan, Noel Reid and Dave Kearney have all earned first caps since he took over as Leinster coach. Rhys Ruddock and Devin Toner have pushed on in a huge way. Tadhg Furlong has pushed Mike Ross down to third choice tighthead and Michael Bent has been converted into a quality loosehead. Jack Conan has come from nowhere to be an international squad member while Josh van der Flier, Bryan Byrne and Edward Byrne have had opportunities. He has done a more than adequate job with the forwards in terms of succession planning - Jamie Heaslip is (arguably) the only first choice forward who's in his 30s which bodes well for the future.

If O'Connor is coach next season as I suspect will be the case, he has a chance to build the backline around a returning Jonny Sexton, Ben Te'o will be more comfortable in the XV man game and Luke Fitzgerald will have gotten to grips with the outside centre role. It's one area which has regressed massively since Joe Schmidt took the Ireland job and the extent with which standards have dropped is something for which the current coach deserves criticism.

 

[munstermuffin]

Is Matt O'Connor the only backs coach? He doesn't strike me as a man to be great designing backs plays. Would Richie Murphy have input?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Richie Murphy is the skills and kicking coach. I presume he has some input with the backs.

 

[Amiga500]

I'm not a fan of the style of rugby Matt O'Connor has had Leinster playing for much of his tenure. However it should be noted that Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Jordi Murphy, Dominic Ryan, Noel Reid and Dave Kearney have all earned first caps since he took over as Leinster coach. Rhys Ruddock and Devin Toner have pushed on in a huge way. Tadhg Furlong has pushed Mike Ross down to third choice tighthead and Michael Bent has been converted into a quality loosehead. Jack Conan has come from nowhere to be an international squad member while Josh van der Flier, Bryan Byrne and Edward Byrne have had opportunities. He has done a more than adequate job with the forwards in terms of succession planning - Jamie Heaslip is (arguably) the only first choice forward who's in his 30s which bodes well for the future.

Pardon?

Jack McGrath made his (Leinster) debut in April 2010.
Marty Moore made his debut in Sept 2012.
Jordi Murphy made his debut in Sept 2011.
Dom Ryan made his debut in 2009.
Noel Reid in Sept 2012.
Dave Kearney May 2009.

MOC didn't arrive till 2013/2014.


Rhys Ruddock has filled out and Dev has continued his upward trajectory (Mike Cheika was playing him since way back in 2005!).

Michael Bent, Sean Cronin, Risteard O hOstrais D) and Rhys Ruddock are all Joe Schmidt players. (Although credit to Bent and the coaching team - inc. MOC - for turning around what was a difficult introduction to Irish rugby.)

Jack Conan to be fair is an MOC player, as is Tadhg Furlong - but I remember you dubs going on about Furlong about 3 or 4 years ago - so would it be unfair to say Furlong was always likely to make it?



Another thing - I don't know how good the current crop in the Leinster academy is - so I may be doing MOC a disservice by expecting him to play folks that simply aren't good enough - is that the case? Prob should go ask that one on harpin'.

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There's little point investing your NIQ slots in players like Nick Williams. Even Louis Ludik and Franco van der Merwe are below the standard that should be aimed for

Nick Williams was player of the Pro12 in his first season. OK, a one trick pony - but for that season - it was a pretty damn good trick.

As peat says, Frank the Van Man is about the best of the annual crop that came up to the NH.


Ludik is a dreadful mistake - a decent footballer and by all accounts decent person -- but he was acquired to facilitate the awful "Payne to 13" concept as a stopgap Team Ireland (thankfully Robbie Henshaw has IMO made the jersey his). We badly needed another back row - especially with Henderson being shoved into the 2nd row to also facilitate Team Ireland. As a result, we not only removed our best attacking threat from our backline, but removed our best ball carrying backrow and didn't replace him.

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Sweet - good job admin (and good job the coders)!!! I like it!

 

[Groundhog]

Pardon?

Jack McGrath made his (Leinster) debut in April 2010.
Marty Moore made his debut in Sept 2012.
Jordi Murphy made his debut in Sept 2011.
Dom Ryan made his debut in 2009.
Noel Reid in Sept 2012.
Dave Kearney May 2009.

MOC didn't arrive till 2013/2014.


Rhys Ruddock has filled out and Dev has continued his upward trajectory (Mike Cheika was playing him since way back in 2005!).

Michael Bent, Sean Cronin, Risteard O hOstrais D) and Rhys Ruddock are all Joe Schmidt players. (Although credit to Bent and the coaching team - inc. MOC - for turning around what was a difficult introduction to Irish rugby.)

Jack Conan to be fair is an MOC player, as is Tadhg Furlong - but I remember you dubs going on about Furlong about 3 or 4 years ago - so would it be unfair to say Furlong was always likely to make it?



Another thing - I don't know how good the current crop in the Leinster academy is - so I may be doing MOC a disservice by expecting him to play folks that simply aren't good enough - is that the case? Prob should go ask that one on harpin'.

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Nick Williams was player of the Pro12 in his first season. OK, a one trick pony - but for that season - it was a pretty damn good trick.

As peat says, Frank the Van Man is about the best of the annual crop that came up to the NH.


Ludik is a dreadful mistake - a decent footballer and by all accounts decent person -- but he was acquired to facilitate the awful "Payne to 13" concept as a stopgap Team Ireland (thankfully Robbie Henshaw has IMO made the jersey his). We badly needed another back row - especially with Henderson being shoved into the 2nd row to also facilitate Team Ireland. As a result, we not only removed our best attacking threat from our backline, but removed our best ball carrying backrow and didn't replace him.

Caps, like international ones.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just to throw it out there Nick Williams first few season of Pro 12 were spent boozing and having the party lifestyle down in Cork. So when he went to Ulster he was on his last chance for Pro rugby career.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@Amiga500
I meant international caps. All of the players I listed took big strides forward since MOC took charge.

On another note, Leinster A put 51 points on Rotherham ***ans away in the B&I Cup quarter final today. Girvan Dempsey's upward trajectory as a coach continues. He has Leinster A running in tries for fun no matter the lineup. Consider that only 9 of squad today were among the 23 which obliterated Leeds Carnegie in last season's final and he's managed a transition in his squad exceptionally well.

 

[big ginger 8]

http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/news/13156.php#.VMuAOWisXOW

 

[big ginger 8]

15. Zane Kirchner
14. Fergus McFadden
13. Ben Te'o
12. Gordon D'Arcy
11. Luke Fitzgerald
10. Jimmy Gopperth
9. Eoin Reddan
1. Michael Bent
2. Aaron Dundon
3. Marty Moore
4. Mike McCarthy
5. Kane Douglas
6. Dominic Ryan
7. Shane Jennings CAPTAIN
8. Jack Conan

16. Sean Cronin
17. Cian Healy
18. Tadhg Furlong
19. Ben Marshall
20. Dan Leavy
21. Isaac Boss
22. Cathal Marsh
23. Dave Kearney

Interesting team, Leavy straight in, McGrath dropped after an apparently terrible performance vs Dragons and importantly in an Irish context Fitz on the wing and Moore starting.

 

[munstermuffin]

And Jennings retiring at end of season.
I'm delighted with that because he was always a thorn in Munsters side. I'm huge fan of these dogged, push the law to limit kind of forwards and he was one of a dying breed.i wish him well and he's a lovely fella off field too.