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The Leinster thread

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The phases which ended in the Boss/Kearny **** up actually made me laugh.
 
lynam1104 said:
The phases which ended in the Boss/Kearny **** up actually made me laugh.
Click to expand...

Summed up the whole match for me - both sides trying to outdo each other with f'ups - except over the 80 it was Ulster that managed the "winning" hand at that.

Conan's coming on very nicely, I'll say that.
 
Still not happy but at least they looked somewhat more competent towards the end.
 
How about that backrow though? I wouldn't have thought we'd be coming out comfortable winners over Ulster with a unit of Conan, Van der Flier and Murphy on the pick this time last year.


Conan will be an international at some point. I think I was in scouts with him as a young lad.
 
Glad I picked Conan for a breakout season!

We should just end up picking a pack of:

1. Healy
2. Cronin
3. Moore
4. Ruddock
5. Conan
6. Murphy
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

with Te'o and Fitz in the centres. Just make life easy for the halves you know.
 
I would love to see a backrow of Ruddock, O'Brien, Conan one day. So much powuhhh!

Madigan plays like a 12 in the 10 position. He doesn't run a backline - either having a go himself or firing out a bullet/skip pass without a purpose. Metre gains in the backs are from individual efforts from the likes of Fitzgerald and ironically Madigan. I'd rather see Gopperth back at 10. He's not great but he is a natural outhalf.

Boss and D'arcy have to be finished at this level.

The Ulster forwards should be ashamed for the try they conceded through Madigan. A 10 burrowing over for a try against a line of forwards. Not good enough.
 
Lads Conan will be Leinsters 8 within the next 12 months. Heaslip has his pros but Conan is a much better all rounder and has power when going forward. Him SOB and Ruddock would be some powerful backrow. Also I'm glad to see Luke Fitz really get few games together and excel at 13
 
In all seriousness lads - people slate MOC and while his tactics can be poor at times its a results business and facts are.
1. He's still in control of his own destiny in Europe.
2. He's still battling well in Pro12 and will make semi finals
3. He has the backing of players who have to shoulder some of blame for poor displays
4. He has brought through some guys like Conan, Furlong and well he has made the big calls.

And he has done all this with injuries and form of some being against him. he deserves some credit in fairness. Like people had a grudge as he wasn't picking adigan at 10 in big games but he wants a 10 to control game and in fairness Gopperth is the better 10 for that.
 
People hate the style. We're predictable and boring 9 times out of 10 (Llanelli and Castres being the two exceptions this season, and neither of them are stellar sides.) We're also bloody easy to work out. Look how simple it was for Munster to shut us down, and with the greatest respect to Munster we should be taking care of them at home. We're like we were under Michael Cheika, except without the ruthlessness that made us one of the top sides in Europe.

I can understand the problems we've had with injuries, but he's made a lot of calls that have annoyed people too. Sticking with Boss long past his sell by date, starting with Gopperth week in, week out without rest and regardless of form, etc.

As for the accomplishments you've given:

1) It's a **** poor group. There isn't a top side in it. The fact that we don't have it sewn up by now is disappointing.
2) The Pro 12 is a low standard. Not being one of the top four sides in it would be a disaster.
3) Coach doesn't call his players ****. Shocker.
4) Hasn't had a choice. Such is the make up of the squad.

Personally I look forward to the end of his contract. There are a lot of good Irish coaches who deserve a crack with a province. Personally I'd love to see a Bernard Jackman-Girvan Dempsey combo in charge.
 
Feicarsinn said:
People hate the style. We're predictable and boring 9 times out of 10 (Llanelli and Castres being the two exceptions this season, and neither of them are stellar sides.) We're also bloody easy to work out. Look how simple it was for Munster to shut us down, and with the greatest respect to Munster we should be taking care of them at home. We're like we were under Michael Cheika, except without the ruthlessness that made us one of the top sides in Europe.

I can understand the problems we've had with injuries, but he's made a lot of calls that have annoyed people too. Sticking with Boss long past his sell by date, starting with Gopperth week in, week out without rest and regardless of form, etc.

As for the accomplishments you've given:

1) It's a **** poor group. There isn't a top side in it. The fact that we don't have it sewn up by now is disappointing.
2) The Pro 12 is a low standard. Not being one of the top four sides in it would be a disaster.
3) Coach doesn't call his players ****. Shocker.
4) Hasn't had a choice. Such is the make up of the squad.

Personally I look forward to the end of his contract. There are a lot of good Irish coaches who deserve a crack with a province. Personally I'd love to see a Bernard Jackman-Girvan Dempsey combo in charge.
Click to expand...
To start at the top I agree but well he has gotten the results to have them in the good position. And regards us beating ye in Aviva I'd put it down to us being the hungrier team and well we aren't that bad. Like we were poor in Europe but obviously our group was much harder and I wouldn't say Leinster are miles ahead of us. But understand your views. Regards my points.
1. You can only beat what is in front of you and well yes it was poor group but the injuries made it an obstacle.
2. Again like point 1 yes it's poor but Leinster aren't outside standard either as we all have dropped and simply put is it Leinster fans are overexpecting. Like the team isn't as good in strength or depth like it was say 2/3 years ago.
3. I meant every player seems to be fans of MOC with Heaslip and Sean Cronin saying they hope he gets an extension in recent times.
4. He had a choice at weekend and discarded Ross, Boss and to a lesser extent way he dealt with fringe older guys.

Ha I', hoping Jackman comes to Munster 1 day. Himself and ROG :D
 
munstermuffin said:
1. He's still in control of his own destiny in Europe.
2. He's still battling well in Pro12 and will make semi finals
3. He has the backing of players who have to shoulder some of blame for poor displays
4. He has brought through some guys like Conan, Furlong and well he has made the big calls.
Click to expand...

1. Poor pool. Any of the other 3 provinces would probably be where Leinster are given that pool.
2. Ulster are mince, so are Munster. Ospreys and Glasgow represent the only other credible threats. He is behind 3 of those teams and just ahead of the other. Not something to take pride in.
3. The players are not going to split their camp in public. Ulster didn't last year then in the summer senior players influenced the CEO to get rid of the head coach.
4. He has brought through Furlong because Moore was injured and Conan because Heaslip, Jennings, Murphy, O'Brien and Ruddock have been injured.

Using the Declan Kidney approach to bringing through youth is the worst problem about MOC. Not only is his tactics hurting Leinster in the here and now, his lack of real squad development means a reduction in strength in depth now, in competition now and much worse, will leave a gaping chasm in the squad in 5 years time. Like Munster when McGahan had to deal with a sh-t sandwich post Deccie.
 
My problem with MO'C is that he was given a pretty ****ing good hand, it may not have been as good as Schmidt's but it was good, and he's doing the bare minimum to get by with it. The last month's rugby is what one would expect from this side but in comparison to the rest of the season Leinster are in peak form. Knowing what they faced at the start of the season Leinster's goals should have been a home 1/4 final in Europe and a home 1/2 in the league, both are still possible but require big away wins. If O'Connor achieves this fair enough and recent performances look promising but if he doesn't, which was looking very likely from earlier performances, he's failed and should be on tenterhooks for the last season of his contract.

As as for the article, he has it right with Fanning and that's about it.
 
Feicarsinn said:
People hate the style. We're predictable and boring 9 times out of 10 (Llanelli and Castres being the two exceptions this season, and neither of them are stellar sides.) We're also bloody easy to work out. Look how simple it was for Munster to shut us down, and with the greatest respect to Munster we should be taking care of them at home. We're like we were under Michael Cheika, except without the ruthlessness that made us one of the top sides in Europe.

I can understand the problems we've had with injuries, but he's made a lot of calls that have annoyed people too. Sticking with Boss long past his sell by date, starting with Gopperth week in, week out without rest and regardless of form, etc.

As for the accomplishments you've given:

1) It's a **** poor group. There isn't a top side in it. The fact that we don't have it sewn up by now is disappointing.
2) The Pro 12 is a low standard. Not being one of the top four sides in it would be a disaster.
3) Coach doesn't call his players ****. Shocker.
4) Hasn't had a choice. Such is the make up of the squad.

Personally I look forward to the end of his contract. There are a lot of good Irish coaches who deserve a crack with a province. Personally I'd love to see a Bernard Jackman-Girvan Dempsey combo in charge.
Click to expand...

Not to be defensive over it :p but I don't think the pool is nearly as bad as you say.
When you say a top side I think its a red herring because to me Toulon and Clermont are the ones far ahead of the pack, and I don't think anyone else is even near that level.
After those two, the next two french sides Toulouse and Metro are inconsistent, and the former were just smashed in their backyard by Bath. The premiership meanwhile shows that currently Saints, Bath, Sarries and yes, Wasps, are operating at a very similar level. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's been a bit of a power shift, or more like an egalitarian redistribution of strength across more teams :p - and this includes Leinster maybe giving away a bit of player and coaching quality.

As for yourselves, I don't there's any longer a particular reason to think of yourselves as out of place with the teams in the pool. I don't think the starting side you'll put out on Saturday will be markedly better than the Wasps 15, and I wouldn't say much better than Quins either. What you've always had I guess is huge depth which tends to shine through in longer campaigns and when you bring on your bench after 50 - 60 minutes in a game.

What I would maybe concede is that with your experience as a player group, you're significantly more developed as a group of players and this experience in itself I imagine will get you over the line on saturday - perhaps that's one area when you're not delivering - experience isn't being made to count and translated into results.
As for the coach, I simply don't know enough.
 
HenryChinaski said:
What you've always had I guess is huge depth
Click to expand...

Which is being eroded as MOC refuses to give youngsters any kind of chance unless he is without options.

What happens when Jennings/Reddan/Boss/D'Arcy retire? Jennings will be replaced by Murphy and Ruddock (both non MOC), D'Arcy will be replaced by... Madigan probably and Reddan/Boss? MOC will probably look to sign Petey Stringer.
 
HenryChinaski said:
Not to be defensive over it :p but I don't think the pool is nearly as bad as you say.
When you say a top side I think its a red herring because to me Toulon and Clermont are the ones far ahead of the pack, and I don't think anyone else is even near that level.
After those two, the next two french sides Toulouse and Metro are inconsistent, and the former were just smashed in their backyard by Bath. The premiership meanwhile shows that currently Saints, Bath, Sarries and yes, Wasps, are operating at a very similar level. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's been a bit of a power shift, or more like an egalitarian redistribution of strength across more teams :p - and this includes Leinster maybe giving away a bit of player and coaching quality.

As for yourselves, I don't there's any longer a particular reason to think of yourselves as out of place with the teams in the pool. I don't think the starting side you'll put out on Saturday will be markedly better than the Wasps 15, and I wouldn't say much better than Quins either. What you've always had I guess is huge depth which tends to shine through in longer campaigns and when you bring on your bench after 50 - 60 minutes in a game.

What I would maybe concede is that with your experience as a player group, you're significantly more developed as a group of players and this experience in itself I imagine will get you over the line on saturday - perhaps that's one area when you're not delivering - experience isn't being made to count and translated into results.
As for the coach, I simply don't know enough.
Click to expand...

Leinster and Wasps are about level this season but they really shouldn't be. As it stands both teams are 4th in their domestic leagues and have a winner takes all match to top the group in Europe. The difference is that this time last year Leinster were top of the league and in the same position in Europe with the team that would become English champions, the French champions and a good Ospreys outfit whereas Wasps weren't in the top tier of Europe while sitting mid table in their domestic league. Wasps are very much an improved team and Leinster have regressed considerably but considering Leinster's current player pool compared to last year this regression shouldn't have happened.

Leinster lost Brian O'Driscoll and Leo Cullen, replaced by Ben Te'o who's been unlucky with injuries, Luke Fitzgerald who's been Leinster's player of the season thus far and Kane Douglas, a capped Wallaby who's form has been inconsistent. Add Mike Ross', Isaac Boss', Eoin Reddan's (to an extent) and Gordan D'Arcy's declines, Jimmy Gopperth's loss of form and Madigan's lack of opportunity in the 10 shirt, Noel Reid's, Luke McGrath's and Jack Conan's improvements to the equation this regression shouldn't be as extreme or have happened at all. With injuries factored in the picture is vastly different. (Off the top of my head) Long term injuries to Sean O'Brien, Kevin McLaughlan and Cian Healy, Medium term to Marty Moore, Rhys Ruddock, Jack McGrath, Dave Kearney, Zane Kirchener, Ben Te'o, Richardt Strauss and Shane Jennings and a plethora of shorter term injuries have affected the season incredibly, the question this raises are if these injuries are a big enough factor for worse performances and results this season in comparison to last, where injuries were also an issue but not as extensive. I most people would agree that when you can field a team with upwards of 13 internationals every week, barring those interrupted by Ireland camps, this shouldn't happen. When the players are there, many of whom were in form for Ireland in Autumn, there's a problem when a decline like this happens and it's highly unlikely that it's root is anywhere other than the coaching set up.

As for the improvement of other teams being a factor, that hasn't happened in the Pro 12, in fact it's quite the opposite.

So this is why us Leinster fans on here consider Pool 2 to be weak, not because Leinster are better than the other sides but because they should be.

I may have missed a few retirements or injuries but I'm pretty sure it's nothing so considerable as to make my argument redundant.
 

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