- Joined
- Jul 4, 2011
- Messages
- 11,731
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
-
Help Support The Rugby Forum :
Yeah, fair enough.
I'm ****** off about it - but not exactly sure where to direct my ire. IRFU? Leinster? Munster? Ulster?
Maybe just all four. Pack of bolloxes the lot of them.
Hate the game not the playa.
In some ways, this is good for Connacht. If they want to get young Irish players out west and not going over the water or hanging around their native province's academy, and the first pick of IQ players from abroad, they need to show there is a way clear to the top. Doesn't get clearer than this. There we go - a silver lining for a pretty black cloud.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2007
- Messages
- 8,310
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Connacht still have the problem of having probably the toughest route to European competition of ant side in Europe mind. Leinster, Munster and Ulster are likely to be top 12 sides for the foreseeable future meaning that unless one of them wins the thing Connacht are screwed with regards getting into the Heineken Cup. They've been lucky with Leinster's recent success, but when teh bubble bursts they could be in trouble.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
Long post alert.
There has been an awful lot typed on internet forums over the last few days about how Leinster are finished and need to completely rebuild. Needless to say, I disagree. While I won't argue that Leinster haven't hit the heights of previous seasons this year, there's no cause for widespread panic. Some ruthless decision making can have Leinster get through the bulk of their squad realignment while still challenging for trophies and in 18 months time they'll be completely back on track.
A quick look at the squad and academy:
Loosehead Prop: Healy, van der Merwe, J McGrath, O'Connell, E Byrne
Hooker: Strauss, Cronin, Dundon, T Sexton, Tracy, B Byrne, Doyle
Tighthead Prop: Ross, Bent, Hagan, Moore, Furlong
Second Row: Cullen, Browne, Toner, Roux, Denton, Flanagan, Marshall, Beirne, Thornbury
Backrow: McLaughlin, O'Brien, Heaslip, Jennings, Ruddock, Ryan, Murphy, Auva'a, Gilsenan, Conan, Leavy, van der Flier
Scrum half: Reddan, Boss, Cooney, L McGrath
Flyhalf: J Sexton, Madigan, Reid, Marsh
Centre: O'Driscoll, D'arcy, McFadden, O'Malley, Goodman, Macken, Coghlan, O'Shea
Back three: R Kearney, Nacewa, Fitzgerald, Conway, D Kearney, Carr, A Byrne, Hudson, Boyle, Coghlan Murray, Sherlock
That's 65 players which is very top heavy. I'd let quite a few go, some reluctantly. Splitting them into four groups:
1) Jack McGrath, Jamie Hagan or Martin Moore, Jordi Murphy, Dave Kearney
All have future and possible international futures ahead of them. None will get the gametime that their talents deserve. McGrath for example could compete behind Dave Kilcoyne for Munster (if they release backup Wian Du Preez which will free up a NIQ spot elsewhere). Hagan likewise would be a better backup than Stephen Archer for Munster. Moore is too good to be 4th choice. Murphy has been really good for Leinster this season but would see much more action at Connacht. Dave Kearney is in danger of stagnating from irregular gametime and would be a good option for Connacht. If four of those players move on, it increases Declan Kidney's options.
2) Damian Browne, Leo Auva'a, Goodman, Carr
All are very useful Pro 12 level players. None will step up to Heineken Cup level stars nor are they future international options in my opinion. I'd prefer to nurture new players in the Pro 12 (like Roux, Conan, Macken, Adam Byrne) who could potentially step up to a higher level than these experienced pros. Browne in particular would be a loss but he's going to see his game time seriously reduced by Mike McCarthy's arrival anyway.
3) Tom Sexton, David Doyle, Mark Flanagan, Ben Marshall, Collie O'Shea, Darren Hudson, Andrew Boyle, Sam Coghlan Murray, Mike Sherlock
These would be tough cuts to make since all have talent. However it's hard to see any of them being close to making a breakthrough into the Pro 12 squad when it's denied of the internationals, never mind the full strength squad. I believe all would be better off continuing their rugby education elsewhere, maybe even dropping down to lower Top 14, Pro D2, smaller Premiership and Championship clubs. It's a route that has served Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan, Tom Court, Robin Copeland, Shane Monahan and Niall Morris well amongst others.
4) Gordon D'arcy, Shane Jennings
If the 3rd group are difficult cuts, these are even harder. Both Jennings and D'arcy have had hugely successful careers for Leinster and if there was a Leinster rugby hall of fame, each would be shoe ins to make it upon their retirement. My reasons for both are that it will make transitioning the team easier than losing too much experience in one go. D'arcy is still a good Heineken Cup player and a solid international. He's still a strong defender and excellent at making yards after contact but he's no longer igniting the backline. Letting him move on gives Fergus McFadden a run in the 12 jersey and frees up more opportunities for eoin O'Malley and Brendan Macken. Jennings is now the 4th choice backrow option. He's still a superb club player but he'll be 32 at seasons end and his presence is limiting chances for Dominic Ryan and Rhys Ruddock. I believe Ryan in particular would benefit hugely from an extended run in the squad. As such Jennings is expendable. I'm certain that both D'arcy and Jennings could secure lucrative contracts in France.
I'd keep Leo Cullen around as club captain and as the leader of the Pro 12 team. Likewise I'd offer Brian O'Driscoll a new rolling 1 year contract and use him in much the same way that Man Utd use Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes - don't overwork them and use them as big game players with frequent rest periods.
Above I've listed 19 squad cuts decreasing the squads size to 46 players. That would massively decrease the wage bill. Mike McCarthy is confirmed to come in which will give the second row a serious jolt in the arm. Should Quinn Roux be designated a project player, Leinster will have 2 NIQ slots available (only van der Merwe and Nacewa won't be Ireland qualified). A top class 2nd row to partner McCarthy (Toner, Roux and Cullen as backups) is a must for one of the slots. For the other slot, I'd give serious consideration to a top class scrum half or inside centre.
If this was carried out, Leinster would be in position to challenge for trophies again next season with the transitional phase close to being completed. I still believe Leinster can challenge for trophies this year but they'll have to do it the hard way, scraping into an away Heineken Cup quarter final (or Amlin Cup quarter final) and getting the 3rd or 4th Pro 12 playoffs slot. Long term, the injury woes this season will serve Leinster well since it highlights deficiences within the current sqaud.
There has been an awful lot typed on internet forums over the last few days about how Leinster are finished and need to completely rebuild. Needless to say, I disagree. While I won't argue that Leinster haven't hit the heights of previous seasons this year, there's no cause for widespread panic. Some ruthless decision making can have Leinster get through the bulk of their squad realignment while still challenging for trophies and in 18 months time they'll be completely back on track.
A quick look at the squad and academy:
Loosehead Prop: Healy, van der Merwe, J McGrath, O'Connell, E Byrne
Hooker: Strauss, Cronin, Dundon, T Sexton, Tracy, B Byrne, Doyle
Tighthead Prop: Ross, Bent, Hagan, Moore, Furlong
Second Row: Cullen, Browne, Toner, Roux, Denton, Flanagan, Marshall, Beirne, Thornbury
Backrow: McLaughlin, O'Brien, Heaslip, Jennings, Ruddock, Ryan, Murphy, Auva'a, Gilsenan, Conan, Leavy, van der Flier
Scrum half: Reddan, Boss, Cooney, L McGrath
Flyhalf: J Sexton, Madigan, Reid, Marsh
Centre: O'Driscoll, D'arcy, McFadden, O'Malley, Goodman, Macken, Coghlan, O'Shea
Back three: R Kearney, Nacewa, Fitzgerald, Conway, D Kearney, Carr, A Byrne, Hudson, Boyle, Coghlan Murray, Sherlock
That's 65 players which is very top heavy. I'd let quite a few go, some reluctantly. Splitting them into four groups:
1) Jack McGrath, Jamie Hagan or Martin Moore, Jordi Murphy, Dave Kearney
All have future and possible international futures ahead of them. None will get the gametime that their talents deserve. McGrath for example could compete behind Dave Kilcoyne for Munster (if they release backup Wian Du Preez which will free up a NIQ spot elsewhere). Hagan likewise would be a better backup than Stephen Archer for Munster. Moore is too good to be 4th choice. Murphy has been really good for Leinster this season but would see much more action at Connacht. Dave Kearney is in danger of stagnating from irregular gametime and would be a good option for Connacht. If four of those players move on, it increases Declan Kidney's options.
2) Damian Browne, Leo Auva'a, Goodman, Carr
All are very useful Pro 12 level players. None will step up to Heineken Cup level stars nor are they future international options in my opinion. I'd prefer to nurture new players in the Pro 12 (like Roux, Conan, Macken, Adam Byrne) who could potentially step up to a higher level than these experienced pros. Browne in particular would be a loss but he's going to see his game time seriously reduced by Mike McCarthy's arrival anyway.
3) Tom Sexton, David Doyle, Mark Flanagan, Ben Marshall, Collie O'Shea, Darren Hudson, Andrew Boyle, Sam Coghlan Murray, Mike Sherlock
These would be tough cuts to make since all have talent. However it's hard to see any of them being close to making a breakthrough into the Pro 12 squad when it's denied of the internationals, never mind the full strength squad. I believe all would be better off continuing their rugby education elsewhere, maybe even dropping down to lower Top 14, Pro D2, smaller Premiership and Championship clubs. It's a route that has served Mike Ross, Eoin Reddan, Tom Court, Robin Copeland, Shane Monahan and Niall Morris well amongst others.
4) Gordon D'arcy, Shane Jennings
If the 3rd group are difficult cuts, these are even harder. Both Jennings and D'arcy have had hugely successful careers for Leinster and if there was a Leinster rugby hall of fame, each would be shoe ins to make it upon their retirement. My reasons for both are that it will make transitioning the team easier than losing too much experience in one go. D'arcy is still a good Heineken Cup player and a solid international. He's still a strong defender and excellent at making yards after contact but he's no longer igniting the backline. Letting him move on gives Fergus McFadden a run in the 12 jersey and frees up more opportunities for eoin O'Malley and Brendan Macken. Jennings is now the 4th choice backrow option. He's still a superb club player but he'll be 32 at seasons end and his presence is limiting chances for Dominic Ryan and Rhys Ruddock. I believe Ryan in particular would benefit hugely from an extended run in the squad. As such Jennings is expendable. I'm certain that both D'arcy and Jennings could secure lucrative contracts in France.
I'd keep Leo Cullen around as club captain and as the leader of the Pro 12 team. Likewise I'd offer Brian O'Driscoll a new rolling 1 year contract and use him in much the same way that Man Utd use Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes - don't overwork them and use them as big game players with frequent rest periods.
Above I've listed 19 squad cuts decreasing the squads size to 46 players. That would massively decrease the wage bill. Mike McCarthy is confirmed to come in which will give the second row a serious jolt in the arm. Should Quinn Roux be designated a project player, Leinster will have 2 NIQ slots available (only van der Merwe and Nacewa won't be Ireland qualified). A top class 2nd row to partner McCarthy (Toner, Roux and Cullen as backups) is a must for one of the slots. For the other slot, I'd give serious consideration to a top class scrum half or inside centre.
If this was carried out, Leinster would be in position to challenge for trophies again next season with the transitional phase close to being completed. I still believe Leinster can challenge for trophies this year but they'll have to do it the hard way, scraping into an away Heineken Cup quarter final (or Amlin Cup quarter final) and getting the 3rd or 4th Pro 12 playoffs slot. Long term, the injury woes this season will serve Leinster well since it highlights deficiences within the current sqaud.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2007
- Messages
- 8,310
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Woah, hang on.
The academy and the first team squads are different entities first off. You can't lump them together and say that this is the size of our first team squad.On a few particulars. Getting rid of Dave Kearney would be lunacy. If he had been able to keep himself fit this season he more than likely would have started in every major game. He's got himself capped playing for Leinster and considering how poor our back three options have shown themselves to be below the starters (I'm looking at you Fionn Carr) we cannot afford to lose a player of his quality.I think your second category is fairly mixed. Carr has shown that he's not up to it and should be shipped off as soon as possible.
Goodman should be retained as he's an experienced head in a position in which we're weak. You say we should be bringing young guys through but as far as I'm aware our prospects in the centre are fairly limited at the moment. Browne I'd keep if at all possible. Nothing wrong with having a big lump of a lock for tougher away games. A good kind of player for Mark Flanagan to play beside as he works himself into the team and considering that we're like to lose Leo this year it'd be a mistake to let him go. Auva'a should be shipped off. Extremely disappointing at the start of the season when he was needed most as a senior member of the squad. He's a show pony, not a guy for the hard slog and cold days away in Wales and Scotland. I'd be much happier to have Heaslip and O'Brien as our first choice 8's, with Ruddock and Murphy behind than have Auva'a involved next season.
As for getting rid of D'arcy and Jennings I can see your point. However, O'Malley and Macken would not benefit in terms of increased game time should D'arcy leave, considering they're both out and out 13's. Macken has seen plenty of game time this year, while O'Malley no doubt would have as well had he been fit. Similarly, Shane Jennings isn't keeping Dom Ryan away from the first team, his inability to keep himself injury free over the past two seasons had. He was getting into Heineken Cup squads two seasons ago with Jennings and co. still around so it's hardly fair to say that's the reason his development has been curtailed.
I do agree that the squad needs to be trimmed however. We're in danger of allowing our ranks to become bloated with average players sucking up the budget, at the expense of top quality imports. I'd imagine that this will be Cullen's last season, so he'll probably move on. Similarly HVDM will probably move. Hagan, Carr and Auva'a should be allowed to move, while I'd have serious questions about renewing Dev Toner's contract at this point. I'd probably let Noel Reid, Collie O'Shea, Jack O'Connell, Darren Hudson and Ben Marshall move, as they've been round long enough to have a serious crack at the first team and haven't made it. Tom Sexton we can lose, as Dundon has proven himself a capable and cheap stand in, while the other two boys are obviously quality.
That's 12 cuts. While the vast majority of them aren't on massive money, it should free up enough to get at least two serious NIQ's in.
The academy and the first team squads are different entities first off. You can't lump them together and say that this is the size of our first team squad.On a few particulars. Getting rid of Dave Kearney would be lunacy. If he had been able to keep himself fit this season he more than likely would have started in every major game. He's got himself capped playing for Leinster and considering how poor our back three options have shown themselves to be below the starters (I'm looking at you Fionn Carr) we cannot afford to lose a player of his quality.I think your second category is fairly mixed. Carr has shown that he's not up to it and should be shipped off as soon as possible.
Goodman should be retained as he's an experienced head in a position in which we're weak. You say we should be bringing young guys through but as far as I'm aware our prospects in the centre are fairly limited at the moment. Browne I'd keep if at all possible. Nothing wrong with having a big lump of a lock for tougher away games. A good kind of player for Mark Flanagan to play beside as he works himself into the team and considering that we're like to lose Leo this year it'd be a mistake to let him go. Auva'a should be shipped off. Extremely disappointing at the start of the season when he was needed most as a senior member of the squad. He's a show pony, not a guy for the hard slog and cold days away in Wales and Scotland. I'd be much happier to have Heaslip and O'Brien as our first choice 8's, with Ruddock and Murphy behind than have Auva'a involved next season.
As for getting rid of D'arcy and Jennings I can see your point. However, O'Malley and Macken would not benefit in terms of increased game time should D'arcy leave, considering they're both out and out 13's. Macken has seen plenty of game time this year, while O'Malley no doubt would have as well had he been fit. Similarly, Shane Jennings isn't keeping Dom Ryan away from the first team, his inability to keep himself injury free over the past two seasons had. He was getting into Heineken Cup squads two seasons ago with Jennings and co. still around so it's hardly fair to say that's the reason his development has been curtailed.
I do agree that the squad needs to be trimmed however. We're in danger of allowing our ranks to become bloated with average players sucking up the budget, at the expense of top quality imports. I'd imagine that this will be Cullen's last season, so he'll probably move on. Similarly HVDM will probably move. Hagan, Carr and Auva'a should be allowed to move, while I'd have serious questions about renewing Dev Toner's contract at this point. I'd probably let Noel Reid, Collie O'Shea, Jack O'Connell, Darren Hudson and Ben Marshall move, as they've been round long enough to have a serious crack at the first team and haven't made it. Tom Sexton we can lose, as Dundon has proven himself a capable and cheap stand in, while the other two boys are obviously quality.
That's 12 cuts. While the vast majority of them aren't on massive money, it should free up enough to get at least two serious NIQ's in.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
@Feicarsinn
Thanks for replying and reading through my post! There are many ways you could go in trimming and remoulding the squad. You have a different, equally valid opinion to mine so no offense is taken with you disagreeing! If I may explain some of the points you raise:
You're correct, the full squad and academy are different entities but they train together and many of the academy (numbering 25 if you include Adam Byrne who's not listed) have featured for the As and full team. Noel Reid, Jordi Murphy and Martin Moore are now more or less established players while Ben Marshall made his debut two years ago and a number have been in the camp for more than 2 years. I listed them together because Joe Schmidt has no qualms about giving them game time.
I don't disagree for a second about Dave Kearney and I'd hate to lose him. When I listed him (and others) in the first group, I was trying to look at it from multiple perspectives including what's better for the player and for Ireland. Dave Kearney will be 24 at the end of the season and behind his brother, Isa Nacewa, Luke Fitzgerald and Fergus McFadden in the pecking order. He has Andrew Conway and Adam Byrne coming up behind him and Ian Madigan has been plugged in too. For his career, perhaps moving on somewhere with a greater certainty of game time is preferable. That coloured my opinion on him leaving the squad. Cutting him was the wrong term on my part. I'd like to see him stay but if Leinster could get in, say, Niall Morris (off contract at Leicester) the impact on the squad would be minimal.
I see your point about Goodman. He's a solid pro who won't let you down. My take on it though is that he's 3rd choice flyhalf and 5th choice centre (O'Driscoll, D'arcy, McFadden, O'Malley). That's poor usage of a NIQ slot. While he is a better player than Noel Reid who does a similar job, Reid is Irish and probably cheaper. Leinster need a 3rd flyhalf so he remains in the squad. Goodman is victim of the NIQ numbers game. In summer 2014 I'd be looking to ship out one of Noel Reid or Cathal Marsh.
I wouldn't mind keeping Browne either but he's not a Heineken Cup player in my view. How much game time will he realistically see with Mike McCarthy on the books and Quinn Roux back from injury? Cutting him is about making the squad younger. If Leo Cullen retires, I'd keep hold of Browne but I'd rather offer Cullen a one year deal for his leadership ability.
Small point but did Ryan not get his chances 2 years ago because of injury to others? Heaslip and McLaughlin as far as I'm aware. Again, I'd have no problem keeping Jennings but wouldn't break the back offering him a new contract. I'm not suggesting Ryan has been held back by Jennings, I'm suggesting that I'd rather from this point on see a 22 or 23 year old Ryan with massive upside to improve than a slightly waning 32 year old (at the end of the season) Jennings. Jennings is still the better player right now but will he be better this time next year?
Another small point, Macken and O'Malley played together for the As last week. McFadden and O'Malley were both nominally 13s when they ripped Bath apart last season. If D'arcy isn't around, there are more opportunities for younger centres to stake a claim.
Agreed about van der Merwe probably moving on but I'd much rather keep him that McGrath. McGrath is too hit and miss even at A level for my liking. I'd worry that Cian Healy would be overworked if he didn't have a challenger as good as van der Merwe behind him.
Basically we have similar view on what needs to be done, just have different ways of going about it. I'll admit mine is a severe option and wouldn't expect in a million years it to be carried out. As an armchair fan I've the luxury to make outlandish risky calls which are of no consequence to me whereas Joe Schmidt, Guy Easterby and Mick Dawson have their heads on the chopping block if they screw up recruitment. Being brutally honest, recruitment of new players in the last couple of seasons has let Leinster down slightly (Brad Thorn, Sean Cronin and Hank van der Merwe excepted). There probably are IRFU restrictions on place but Clint Newland, Tom Denton, Steven Sykes, Andrew Goodman and Fionn Carr haven't made the impact in the way additions under the Cheika regime like Isa Nacewa, Mike Ross, Richardt Strauss, Rocky Elsom and Nathan Hines among others did. Admittedly Strauss and Ross broke through under the current coaching staff.
Thanks for replying and reading through my post! There are many ways you could go in trimming and remoulding the squad. You have a different, equally valid opinion to mine so no offense is taken with you disagreeing! If I may explain some of the points you raise:
You're correct, the full squad and academy are different entities but they train together and many of the academy (numbering 25 if you include Adam Byrne who's not listed) have featured for the As and full team. Noel Reid, Jordi Murphy and Martin Moore are now more or less established players while Ben Marshall made his debut two years ago and a number have been in the camp for more than 2 years. I listed them together because Joe Schmidt has no qualms about giving them game time.
I don't disagree for a second about Dave Kearney and I'd hate to lose him. When I listed him (and others) in the first group, I was trying to look at it from multiple perspectives including what's better for the player and for Ireland. Dave Kearney will be 24 at the end of the season and behind his brother, Isa Nacewa, Luke Fitzgerald and Fergus McFadden in the pecking order. He has Andrew Conway and Adam Byrne coming up behind him and Ian Madigan has been plugged in too. For his career, perhaps moving on somewhere with a greater certainty of game time is preferable. That coloured my opinion on him leaving the squad. Cutting him was the wrong term on my part. I'd like to see him stay but if Leinster could get in, say, Niall Morris (off contract at Leicester) the impact on the squad would be minimal.
I see your point about Goodman. He's a solid pro who won't let you down. My take on it though is that he's 3rd choice flyhalf and 5th choice centre (O'Driscoll, D'arcy, McFadden, O'Malley). That's poor usage of a NIQ slot. While he is a better player than Noel Reid who does a similar job, Reid is Irish and probably cheaper. Leinster need a 3rd flyhalf so he remains in the squad. Goodman is victim of the NIQ numbers game. In summer 2014 I'd be looking to ship out one of Noel Reid or Cathal Marsh.
I wouldn't mind keeping Browne either but he's not a Heineken Cup player in my view. How much game time will he realistically see with Mike McCarthy on the books and Quinn Roux back from injury? Cutting him is about making the squad younger. If Leo Cullen retires, I'd keep hold of Browne but I'd rather offer Cullen a one year deal for his leadership ability.
Small point but did Ryan not get his chances 2 years ago because of injury to others? Heaslip and McLaughlin as far as I'm aware. Again, I'd have no problem keeping Jennings but wouldn't break the back offering him a new contract. I'm not suggesting Ryan has been held back by Jennings, I'm suggesting that I'd rather from this point on see a 22 or 23 year old Ryan with massive upside to improve than a slightly waning 32 year old (at the end of the season) Jennings. Jennings is still the better player right now but will he be better this time next year?
Another small point, Macken and O'Malley played together for the As last week. McFadden and O'Malley were both nominally 13s when they ripped Bath apart last season. If D'arcy isn't around, there are more opportunities for younger centres to stake a claim.
Agreed about van der Merwe probably moving on but I'd much rather keep him that McGrath. McGrath is too hit and miss even at A level for my liking. I'd worry that Cian Healy would be overworked if he didn't have a challenger as good as van der Merwe behind him.
Basically we have similar view on what needs to be done, just have different ways of going about it. I'll admit mine is a severe option and wouldn't expect in a million years it to be carried out. As an armchair fan I've the luxury to make outlandish risky calls which are of no consequence to me whereas Joe Schmidt, Guy Easterby and Mick Dawson have their heads on the chopping block if they screw up recruitment. Being brutally honest, recruitment of new players in the last couple of seasons has let Leinster down slightly (Brad Thorn, Sean Cronin and Hank van der Merwe excepted). There probably are IRFU restrictions on place but Clint Newland, Tom Denton, Steven Sykes, Andrew Goodman and Fionn Carr haven't made the impact in the way additions under the Cheika regime like Isa Nacewa, Mike Ross, Richardt Strauss, Rocky Elsom and Nathan Hines among others did. Admittedly Strauss and Ross broke through under the current coaching staff.
Leinster have two issues at present.
2nd row and an aging (if still effective when fit) centre combo. Aside from that, they're in decent shape and anything beyond is a bit panic-based.
Mike McCarthy is 1 half of the 2nd row solution, where does the other come from?
McFadden/Goodman/O'Malley might already be the centre solution - so I wouldn't be breaking out the NIQ chequebook just yet.
2nd row and an aging (if still effective when fit) centre combo. Aside from that, they're in decent shape and anything beyond is a bit panic-based.
Mike McCarthy is 1 half of the 2nd row solution, where does the other come from?
McFadden/Goodman/O'Malley might already be the centre solution - so I wouldn't be breaking out the NIQ chequebook just yet.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2011
- Messages
- 11,731
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
HVDM probably has to leave and under the new restrictions if I'm not mistaken we can't get another NIQ player in the same position and I'd much rather McGrath over O'Connell as back up for Healy. He's also decently rated captaining the A's a lot.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2007
- Messages
- 8,310
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Take offense? Pah, of course not. I think it's fairly apparent to everyone with an interest in Leinster rugby that something has to be done about the amount of average players we have knocking about at the moment, and eveyone's going to have their own take on the situation.
Based on what I've seen this year I'd still have Dave a considerable way in front of Conway to be honest. I like Conway, but he hasn't kicked on as many, myself included, were hoping he would. Byrne looks like a talent, but I'd imagine he's still a few years away from the match day 23 from the big games. Nacewa will be 31 in the summer, Luke Fitzgerald remains a serious doubt going forward it pains me to say, and Madigan's experiences as a full back have been borne out of necessity as opposed to any true desire to keep him there in the long term in my mind. If McFadden's future lies at 12 as most seem to think at the moment then that's another back three slot freed up. No reason Dave Kearney can't get enough game time considering he's equally at home at 15 or on the wing.
Yeah, that's fair enough. I'm in total agreement that as things stand we've got to use our NIQ slots to bring in first team players. I'd be looking at trying to get a high end international quality centre in if at all possible. While we have the talent there, it's very raw as things stand. A Rocky Elsom figure in that department could do us a world of good.
Is Roux going to be hanging around then? I was under the impression he was on a one year contract and, considering the luck he's had with injuries over here, I could totally understand him heading back to SA.
Well, the thing is that we're always going to be missing someone in the back row. It's a bloody attritional position. We've also got three guys in the frame for the international setup at the very least, so we need about 7 solid players in that department as a minimum. Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Jennings, Ruddock, Ryan and Murphy leaves us well stacked. After that there's a bit of a drop off in quality so I'd be hesitant to let Jennings go.
I thought we'd sussed McFadden as a 12 by that point? Never mind, as you say it's a small point. Although the idea of Macken and O'Malley together in the midfield is slightly upsetting. O'Malley is tinchy and Macken is pretty defensively suspect.
+1. HVDM has been crucial to our success over the past few years. I'm not at all saying that I want to lose him, it's just that given his recent appearances for South Africa the French will be sniffing and we may not have the financial clout to match them. Should he go I'd probably want to bring in another NIQ there to be honest. I'd imagine the IRFU would be okay with it too, considering that all the provinces have an IQ loose head knocking about their 23's. McGrath will never be anything more than a Rabo player, I'd consider letting him go if we had half the talent coming through at loosehead that we have on the other side of the scrum.
Based on what I've seen this year I'd still have Dave a considerable way in front of Conway to be honest. I like Conway, but he hasn't kicked on as many, myself included, were hoping he would. Byrne looks like a talent, but I'd imagine he's still a few years away from the match day 23 from the big games. Nacewa will be 31 in the summer, Luke Fitzgerald remains a serious doubt going forward it pains me to say, and Madigan's experiences as a full back have been borne out of necessity as opposed to any true desire to keep him there in the long term in my mind. If McFadden's future lies at 12 as most seem to think at the moment then that's another back three slot freed up. No reason Dave Kearney can't get enough game time considering he's equally at home at 15 or on the wing.
Yeah, that's fair enough. I'm in total agreement that as things stand we've got to use our NIQ slots to bring in first team players. I'd be looking at trying to get a high end international quality centre in if at all possible. While we have the talent there, it's very raw as things stand. A Rocky Elsom figure in that department could do us a world of good.
Is Roux going to be hanging around then? I was under the impression he was on a one year contract and, considering the luck he's had with injuries over here, I could totally understand him heading back to SA.
Well, the thing is that we're always going to be missing someone in the back row. It's a bloody attritional position. We've also got three guys in the frame for the international setup at the very least, so we need about 7 solid players in that department as a minimum. Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Jennings, Ruddock, Ryan and Murphy leaves us well stacked. After that there's a bit of a drop off in quality so I'd be hesitant to let Jennings go.
I thought we'd sussed McFadden as a 12 by that point? Never mind, as you say it's a small point. Although the idea of Macken and O'Malley together in the midfield is slightly upsetting. O'Malley is tinchy and Macken is pretty defensively suspect.
+1. HVDM has been crucial to our success over the past few years. I'm not at all saying that I want to lose him, it's just that given his recent appearances for South Africa the French will be sniffing and we may not have the financial clout to match them. Should he go I'd probably want to bring in another NIQ there to be honest. I'd imagine the IRFU would be okay with it too, considering that all the provinces have an IQ loose head knocking about their 23's. McGrath will never be anything more than a Rabo player, I'd consider letting him go if we had half the talent coming through at loosehead that we have on the other side of the scrum.
I'm going to advance an alternate theory for what's going wrong - at least in part.
Top players are the ones who don't just play well, but the guys who lift the players around them and make them play better as well.
And right now, Leinster are short of fit players in that mould. Partly that's bad luck - O'Driscoll, Kearney and Nacewa are hard losses to take, particularly if you're then going to rest Sexton. Partly that's time, Cullen and D'Arcy. Partly, there's been a failure in signings, particularly in the second row. But mainly, I think there's a few players who should have stepped up to being that sort of player, but don't seem to have done so judging by recent games - Heaslip and Healy in particular are senior players who should have done more than they did at Ravenhill and O'Brien shouldn't have got yellow card against Clermont, very stupid.
Of course there's also the issue that the production line has stalled and some dodgy quality youngsters are being asked to take on bigger roles than you'd like - although how many are genuinely not up to it? But I think the absence of the top dogs has been an issue, and is also something of a ticking time bomb given the ages of BOD and Nacewa.
Or so it seems to me.
Top players are the ones who don't just play well, but the guys who lift the players around them and make them play better as well.
And right now, Leinster are short of fit players in that mould. Partly that's bad luck - O'Driscoll, Kearney and Nacewa are hard losses to take, particularly if you're then going to rest Sexton. Partly that's time, Cullen and D'Arcy. Partly, there's been a failure in signings, particularly in the second row. But mainly, I think there's a few players who should have stepped up to being that sort of player, but don't seem to have done so judging by recent games - Heaslip and Healy in particular are senior players who should have done more than they did at Ravenhill and O'Brien shouldn't have got yellow card against Clermont, very stupid.
Of course there's also the issue that the production line has stalled and some dodgy quality youngsters are being asked to take on bigger roles than you'd like - although how many are genuinely not up to it? But I think the absence of the top dogs has been an issue, and is also something of a ticking time bomb given the ages of BOD and Nacewa.
Or so it seems to me.
coonor
First XV
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,412
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
When describing a few players the adjective "solid" has been thrown around quite considerably.... well let me tell you, to win Heineken cups you can't just have solid players. I have no problem with the likes of Goodman, Browne and to extent at present Cullen as squad players but when put them in a side against the likes of Clermont, who have throughout their squad it always going to be difficult to win.
In my opinion, the only difference between Leinster this season and Leinster last season is fire power. We haven't scored anywhere near as many tries and we seem to have lacked that brilliant dynamism.
Lets firstly look at the pack, I don't particularly think this is the problem area. They were very good against Clermont in the first fixture but what injury seems to be taking its toll. Ross has had to play many games this season both for Leinster and Ireland and he seems to be tiring very quickly. SOB is only just getting back into things and combinations have been constantly changed. Its taking its toll.
The backs have been the main issue, without Kearney or BOD we lack attacking threat. Depth in this regard has to be increased! We have had to move Darcy to 13, Madigan to 15 and McFadden has had no opportunity to play 12. Constant alteration to the team and moving players around positions unfamiliar to them has not helped.
Lets look at the future....
I fear that without big player decisions we could go down the "Munster route". Too many players add club level who can't step up to top H-Cup quality. Look at Du Preez, DOC, Ronan, Murphy, Hurley, Downey etc. All very good players but not good enough to compete with the best.
I also worry about how many "squad" players we have signed in recent year. Players who don't actually fix any problems but have potential to improve it. Ulster on the other have identified problem areas and have signed quality players they know will fix any holes in their first choice team.
Overall some squad modifications are needed:
1) As previously said we have a very big squad but the difference between each team level is arguably bigger than we thought. We need to cut the squad down and identify players that or of the least "value" to Leinster.
2) There doesn't need to be a transition of teams but there needs to be a transition of the core lead player group. Heaslip should be made captain, his game improves when he has responsibility. This core player group needs more challenging. Look at Sexton, Healy, Heaslip, O'Brien and Kearney they have won multiple Heineken Cups at young ages. All of them need new challenges. Its time for them to lead a squad to victory and be recognised for it.
3) I think Leinster are to accepting of "solid" players. For example, Cullen doesn't do anything particularly bad but is that enough. We need a new signing at second row and centre. I'm not to worried about scrum half and I would like to see Cooney and McGrath given more game time. I think a change of guard at scrum may be coming sooner rather than later and in my opinion Boss is a better option than Reddan currently. Macken has shown glimpses of what he can do but Schmidt needs to decide whether he can become top Heineken Cup quality.
In my opinion, the only difference between Leinster this season and Leinster last season is fire power. We haven't scored anywhere near as many tries and we seem to have lacked that brilliant dynamism.
Lets firstly look at the pack, I don't particularly think this is the problem area. They were very good against Clermont in the first fixture but what injury seems to be taking its toll. Ross has had to play many games this season both for Leinster and Ireland and he seems to be tiring very quickly. SOB is only just getting back into things and combinations have been constantly changed. Its taking its toll.
The backs have been the main issue, without Kearney or BOD we lack attacking threat. Depth in this regard has to be increased! We have had to move Darcy to 13, Madigan to 15 and McFadden has had no opportunity to play 12. Constant alteration to the team and moving players around positions unfamiliar to them has not helped.
Lets look at the future....
I fear that without big player decisions we could go down the "Munster route". Too many players add club level who can't step up to top H-Cup quality. Look at Du Preez, DOC, Ronan, Murphy, Hurley, Downey etc. All very good players but not good enough to compete with the best.
I also worry about how many "squad" players we have signed in recent year. Players who don't actually fix any problems but have potential to improve it. Ulster on the other have identified problem areas and have signed quality players they know will fix any holes in their first choice team.
Overall some squad modifications are needed:
1) As previously said we have a very big squad but the difference between each team level is arguably bigger than we thought. We need to cut the squad down and identify players that or of the least "value" to Leinster.
2) There doesn't need to be a transition of teams but there needs to be a transition of the core lead player group. Heaslip should be made captain, his game improves when he has responsibility. This core player group needs more challenging. Look at Sexton, Healy, Heaslip, O'Brien and Kearney they have won multiple Heineken Cups at young ages. All of them need new challenges. Its time for them to lead a squad to victory and be recognised for it.
3) I think Leinster are to accepting of "solid" players. For example, Cullen doesn't do anything particularly bad but is that enough. We need a new signing at second row and centre. I'm not to worried about scrum half and I would like to see Cooney and McGrath given more game time. I think a change of guard at scrum may be coming sooner rather than later and in my opinion Boss is a better option than Reddan currently. Macken has shown glimpses of what he can do but Schmidt needs to decide whether he can become top Heineken Cup quality.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
@Amiga500
You've identified the two areas of most concern in a nutshell - centre and second row. Like you, I think Mike McCarthy is part of the solution at second row. The two players I would have considered off the top of my head for the second part of the solution are Juandre Kruger and Samu Manoa; tough abrasive ******** heading towards their prime who won't miss many, if any, games for internationals. Both have signed contracts for next season elsewhere already.
I think centre, or more precisely inside centre is a bigger issue. Gordon D'arcy may have just one year left. Fergus McFadden can do a very effective job there. Andrew Goodman is okay but not much more than that. Collie O'Shea is very green while Jordan Coghlan is just developing in the position. Is that enough quality for a team aspiring to be a regular Heineken Cup and Pro 12 contender? If there's a top quality option available, take it but I agree that Leinster don't need to make a panic signing.
I think outside centre is pretty well covered with another year of Brian O'Driscoll, Brendan Macken developing quickly and Eoin O'Malley bringing out the best in those around him - he's a Darren Cave clone in my opinion.
@big ginger 8
It seems as though the IRFU are relatively flexible with the NIQ protocols. For instance, Leinster shouldn't have been allowed re-sign Isa Nacewa yet he extended his contract. I presume they'd be flexible about Leinster re-signing Heinke van der Merwe. Ireland have a bunch of looseheads getting a lot of game time at the moment - Cian Healy, Dave Kilcoyne, Tom Court, Brett Wilkinson, Denis Buckley, Callum Black along with Jack McGrath, Paddy McAllister and Marcus Horan. I wouldn't like Jack O'Connell as the primary loosehead backup but think he's a decent option as third choice.
@Feicarsinn
Fair enough about Kearney. I wonder if he'll be happy waiting his turn though, especially seeing younger players like Simon Zebo and Craig Gilroy gain international recognition through more regular rugby. To be honest, I don't rate him as an elite prospect which probably clouds my view on his importance to the squad. I do think he's at the point in his career where he has to look after his own best interests - it's served Niall Morris well for instance.
I don't know about Roux. I can't imagine Leinster would bring him over as a possible project player and jettison him after one year without showcasing his talent when he plays in a position of need. My gut instinct is that he'll get another year to prove himself.
Another fair point about the backrow. I didn't really consider international periods when talking about cutting Jennings loose. That said, backrow options of Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Ryan, Gilsenan, Conan and Leavy are still very good. Joe Schmidt proved himself a master of squad rotation in his first year in charge and I suspect he could successfully integrate the younger members of the squad. If it came down to overpaying for Shane Jennings or trying to hold onto Dominic Ryan and Jordi Murphy, I'd be inclined to take the latter option.
McFadden played 12 from time to time up to that point but was mainly a 13. That game showed, to me at least, that he has the distribution skills to play inside centre. I wouldn't fear playing O'Malley and Macken together, in fact I think their styles are complimentary. O'Malley creates space for others while Macken is a strike runner. Macken's defensive positioning needs work and he could be more aggresive in the tackle but he's not a poor tackler.
@Peat
I think your diagnosis is pretty close to bang on. I'm not pushing panic buttons. In their last three games, Leinster lost by a combined total of less than 20 points to two of the top teams in Europe. O'Driscoll, Kearney, Fitzgerald and Strauss is a lot of championship experience to be denuded of. Leaders who needed to step up include ageing players like Cullen, Ross, Reddan and D'arcy who aren't the players they once were. I don't think the production line has stalled, rather inexperienced players are being asked to do too much given the circumstances. For instance Ian Madigan may be a fine flyhalf but he's not a fullback.
@coonor
Nail on head. Leinster are guilty of accepting mediocrity into their squad to plug gaps in the belief that the core players are good enough to carry them. It's very reminiscent of Munster circa 2009-2010. Johne Murphy, Felix Jones, Wian du Preez and Nick Williams were never likely to return Munster to the summit of European rugby. Likewise Andrew Goodman, Tom Denton, Michael Bent and Fionn Carr won't maintain Leinster's position on top. For James Coughlan, read Daman Browne - good honest players who won't let you down but they won't frighten opponents. Munster got to the top by marrying high quality home grown talent with top imports who were far better than those they were displacing (Rua Tipoki, Trevor Halstead, Jim Williams, Doug Howlett). Leinster did likewise (Rocky Elsom, Nathan Hines, Isa Nacewa, Felipe Contepomi). Ulster are now following that template (Johann Muller, John Afoa, Jared Payne, Ruan Pienaar). Leinster now need to go back to that formula which proved so successful.
You've identified the two areas of most concern in a nutshell - centre and second row. Like you, I think Mike McCarthy is part of the solution at second row. The two players I would have considered off the top of my head for the second part of the solution are Juandre Kruger and Samu Manoa; tough abrasive ******** heading towards their prime who won't miss many, if any, games for internationals. Both have signed contracts for next season elsewhere already.
I think centre, or more precisely inside centre is a bigger issue. Gordon D'arcy may have just one year left. Fergus McFadden can do a very effective job there. Andrew Goodman is okay but not much more than that. Collie O'Shea is very green while Jordan Coghlan is just developing in the position. Is that enough quality for a team aspiring to be a regular Heineken Cup and Pro 12 contender? If there's a top quality option available, take it but I agree that Leinster don't need to make a panic signing.
I think outside centre is pretty well covered with another year of Brian O'Driscoll, Brendan Macken developing quickly and Eoin O'Malley bringing out the best in those around him - he's a Darren Cave clone in my opinion.
@big ginger 8
It seems as though the IRFU are relatively flexible with the NIQ protocols. For instance, Leinster shouldn't have been allowed re-sign Isa Nacewa yet he extended his contract. I presume they'd be flexible about Leinster re-signing Heinke van der Merwe. Ireland have a bunch of looseheads getting a lot of game time at the moment - Cian Healy, Dave Kilcoyne, Tom Court, Brett Wilkinson, Denis Buckley, Callum Black along with Jack McGrath, Paddy McAllister and Marcus Horan. I wouldn't like Jack O'Connell as the primary loosehead backup but think he's a decent option as third choice.
@Feicarsinn
Fair enough about Kearney. I wonder if he'll be happy waiting his turn though, especially seeing younger players like Simon Zebo and Craig Gilroy gain international recognition through more regular rugby. To be honest, I don't rate him as an elite prospect which probably clouds my view on his importance to the squad. I do think he's at the point in his career where he has to look after his own best interests - it's served Niall Morris well for instance.
I don't know about Roux. I can't imagine Leinster would bring him over as a possible project player and jettison him after one year without showcasing his talent when he plays in a position of need. My gut instinct is that he'll get another year to prove himself.
Another fair point about the backrow. I didn't really consider international periods when talking about cutting Jennings loose. That said, backrow options of Heaslip, O'Brien, McLaughlin, Ruddock, Ryan, Gilsenan, Conan and Leavy are still very good. Joe Schmidt proved himself a master of squad rotation in his first year in charge and I suspect he could successfully integrate the younger members of the squad. If it came down to overpaying for Shane Jennings or trying to hold onto Dominic Ryan and Jordi Murphy, I'd be inclined to take the latter option.
McFadden played 12 from time to time up to that point but was mainly a 13. That game showed, to me at least, that he has the distribution skills to play inside centre. I wouldn't fear playing O'Malley and Macken together, in fact I think their styles are complimentary. O'Malley creates space for others while Macken is a strike runner. Macken's defensive positioning needs work and he could be more aggresive in the tackle but he's not a poor tackler.
@Peat
I think your diagnosis is pretty close to bang on. I'm not pushing panic buttons. In their last three games, Leinster lost by a combined total of less than 20 points to two of the top teams in Europe. O'Driscoll, Kearney, Fitzgerald and Strauss is a lot of championship experience to be denuded of. Leaders who needed to step up include ageing players like Cullen, Ross, Reddan and D'arcy who aren't the players they once were. I don't think the production line has stalled, rather inexperienced players are being asked to do too much given the circumstances. For instance Ian Madigan may be a fine flyhalf but he's not a fullback.
@coonor
Nail on head. Leinster are guilty of accepting mediocrity into their squad to plug gaps in the belief that the core players are good enough to carry them. It's very reminiscent of Munster circa 2009-2010. Johne Murphy, Felix Jones, Wian du Preez and Nick Williams were never likely to return Munster to the summit of European rugby. Likewise Andrew Goodman, Tom Denton, Michael Bent and Fionn Carr won't maintain Leinster's position on top. For James Coughlan, read Daman Browne - good honest players who won't let you down but they won't frighten opponents. Munster got to the top by marrying high quality home grown talent with top imports who were far better than those they were displacing (Rua Tipoki, Trevor Halstead, Jim Williams, Doug Howlett). Leinster did likewise (Rocky Elsom, Nathan Hines, Isa Nacewa, Felipe Contepomi). Ulster are now following that template (Johann Muller, John Afoa, Jared Payne, Ruan Pienaar). Leinster now need to go back to that formula which proved so successful.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2007
- Messages
- 8,310
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Just a heads up, Niall Morris and Ryan Caldwell have both recently penned new contracts at Leicester and Bath respectively. Shame.
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
Shame about Caldwell moreso than Morris. The former Ulster player would have been a first team regular with Leinster. Morris would have been on the level of a Dave Kearney, Andrew Conway or Fionn Carr. It's great to see him developing as a player with Leicester though. Perhaps a couple of years from now he, Felix Jones, Ian Keatley, Dave McSharry and Shane Monahan will have served their apprenticeship in the minor leagues before returning home!
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
17-0 win against Connacht. While it wasn't a vintage performance, it goes some way to "stopping the rot" which was three losses in a row.
The age profile of the team was encouraging. Six of the starting XV were 22 or under (Conway, Macken, Marshall, Ruddock, Ryan, Murphy) along with three more on the bench falling under that age (Reid, Byrne, Cooney). Madigan and McGrath aren't exactly greybeards either at 23. Given that Leinster are going to have to embark on a slight transitional phase over the next 18 months (O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Boss, Ross, Cullen are all well into their 30s) it's nice to see a few greenhorns get significant game time instead of being thrust in en masse with little experience in another year and a half.
The age profile of the team was encouraging. Six of the starting XV were 22 or under (Conway, Macken, Marshall, Ruddock, Ryan, Murphy) along with three more on the bench falling under that age (Reid, Byrne, Cooney). Madigan and McGrath aren't exactly greybeards either at 23. Given that Leinster are going to have to embark on a slight transitional phase over the next 18 months (O'Driscoll, D'arcy, Boss, Ross, Cullen are all well into their 30s) it's nice to see a few greenhorns get significant game time instead of being thrust in en masse with little experience in another year and a half.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2011
- Messages
- 11,731
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Good in depth analysis on the secondrow situation.
http://dementedmole.com/2013/01/11/leinsters-second-row-puzzle/
http://dementedmole.com/2013/01/11/leinsters-second-row-puzzle/
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
That's a great blog. Blows the journalists in the Indo and Times away with it's analysis.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2012
- Messages
- 1,745
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
Jonny Sexton is set to leave Leinster at the end of the year for Racing Metro. â'¬750,000 a year. Even as an Ulster fan I'm a bit disappointed.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/provincial/2013/0125/364492-sexton-set-for-racing-metro-switch/
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/provincial/2013/0125/364492-sexton-set-for-racing-metro-switch/
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2006
- Messages
- 4,662
- Club or Nation
Good on him. He's won 3 Heineken Cups with Leinster so it's not like he has unfinished business at the province. Apparently Racing Metro's offer is between €250,000 and €300,000 per year more than the IRFU's offer to him. Take the money and run.
He'll be a huge loss but no player is bigger than the club. I'm excited by the prospect of Ian Madigan leading Leinster to 3 more Heineken Cup crowns!
He'll be a huge loss but no player is bigger than the club. I'm excited by the prospect of Ian Madigan leading Leinster to 3 more Heineken Cup crowns!
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2010
- Messages
- 5,744
- Country Flag
- Club or Nation
I wonder if Leinster will be able to keep other key players and ensure that Sexton leaving is just an isolated case.
Leinsters continuing success has been in keeping the same(top quality) squad together. Where teams like Wasps witnessed a mass exodus of first team players when they won the domestic cup and Heineken cups in quick succession, Leinster haven't had to go through that.
Leinsters continuing success has been in keeping the same(top quality) squad together. Where teams like Wasps witnessed a mass exodus of first team players when they won the domestic cup and Heineken cups in quick succession, Leinster haven't had to go through that.
Similar threads
