The Leinster thread

[jcahill1]

Saw that Tom Sexton has been dropped from Leinsters' Heineken squad. From what little I've seen of him he seems pretty good. What are people's opinions on him?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Leinster have secured the services of Connacht Second Row Mike McCarthy for next season.

http://www.connachtrugby.ie/2012121283125/mccarthy-to-leave-connacht-rugby


This is a good signing. Just the kind of player we need. Realistically we'll probably only get three years out of him but hopefully Mark Flanagan will step up (I expect a big second half of the season from him this year) and we can snag Ian Nagle of Ryan Caldwell or something.

Connacht complain in their article, but they've gotten their fair share of Leinster players over the years too. Hope they can find a decent replacement though.

 

[Tribesmen-ce-123]

Leinster have secured the services of Connacht Second Row Mike McCarthy for next season.

http://www.connachtrugby.ie/2012121283125/mccarthy-to-leave-connacht-rugby


This is a good signing. Just the kind of player we need. Realistically we'll probably only get three years out of him but hopefully Mark Flanagan will step up (I expect a big second half of the season from him this year) and we can snag Ian Nagle of Ryan Caldwell or something.

Connacht complain in their article, but they've gotten their fair share of Leinster players over the years too. Hope they can find a decent replacement though.

Can't complain about McCarthy going to Leinster, he's not even a Connacht native yet has provided years of loyal and very solid service to the province. Just hope he goes out with a bang and Connacht get some more good results while he's still here. If Damian Browne were to come back id consider him a very solid signing for connacht.

One thing that has me ****** though is that the irish Times have reported that Ulster and Munster have attempted to sign Robbie Henshaw. Now he's a born and bred Connacht man and has been one of the stand out players of the year for us, if he were to go it would be another great loss.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Can't complain about McCarthy going to Leinster, he's not even a Connacht native yet has provided years of loyal and very solid service to the province. Just hope he goes out with a bang and Connacht get some more good results while he's still here. If Damian Browne were to come back id consider him a very solid signing for connacht.

One thing that has me ****** though is that the irish Times have reported that Ulster and Munster have attempted to sign Robbie Henshaw. Now he's a born and bred Connacht man and has been one of the stand out players of the year for us, if he were to go it would be another great loss.

I agree with all of that.

As I view it, players who aren't natives of their provinces are fair game (eg Mike McCarthy, Brett Wilkinson, Nathan White, BJ Botha, Wian Du Preez, Isa Nacewa, Isaac Boss). Players moving from abroad to provinces other than their native province are fair game (Damian Browne, Jason Harris Wright, Niall Morris, Mike Ross). Native fringe players are fair game (Felix Jones, Trevor Hogan). Native firt team players should be off limits. For that reason, if Robbie Henshaw, Dennis Buckley, John Muldoon etc were approached by another province I'd be ****** off. If the player expresses a wish to leave and instigates a move, that's okay.

Does that make sense?

McCarthy is an excellent signing. He's in his prime and Leinster should get two excellent years out of him at least. It affords them time for Quinn Roux, Tom Denton, Mark Flanagan, Tadgh Beirne and Gavin Thornbury to develop. I suspect Leo Cullen will retire at the end of the season and could possibly see Damian Browne returning to Connacht at the end of the season.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I agree with all of that.

As I view it, players who aren't natives of their provinces are fair game (eg Mike McCarthy, Brett Wilkinson, Nathan White, BJ Botha, Wian Du Preez, Isa Nacewa, Isaac Boss). Players moving from abroad to provinces other than their native province are fair game (Damian Browne, Jason Harris Wright, Niall Morris, Mike Ross). Native fringe players are fair game (Felix Jones, Trevor Hogan). Native firt team players should be off limits. For that reason, if Robbie Henshaw, Dennis Buckley, John Muldoon etc were approached by another province I'd be ****** off. If the player expresses a wish to leave and instigates a move, that's okay.

Does that make sense?

McCarthy is an excellent signing. He's in his prime and Leinster should get two excellent years out of him at least. It affords them time for Quinn Roux, Tom Denton, Mark Flanagan, Tadgh Beirne and Gavin Thornbury to develop. I suspect Leo Cullen will retire at the end of the season and could possibly see Damian Browne returning to Connacht at the end of the season.

Ideally I'd like to see us bring in Caldwell too. His contract is up at the end of the year and by all accounts he's been cracking in the prem. As you've said we could lose both Cullen and Browne this summer (I'd be sad enough to see Browne go, he's been a very pleasant surprise for us) so we're going to be short on experience there. Toner doesn't look like he's ever going to be the real thing and while Flanagan has shown a bit of potential and has apparently bulked up a bit he's no guarantee of success. Having two good experienced heads in the engine room could turn an area of weakness into a potential strength.

This is a big signal of intent from the Leinster branch, and a much need one too. We're going into a summer that could easily define our next two or three seasons. We could easily lose both O'Driscoll and Cullen to retirement, while it's unlikely that we'll be able to hang onto HVDM when the French come calling, especially with the new IRFU regulations. Both Cronin and Ross have been rumored to be considering going elsewhere, while Goodman and Roux are only on year long deals.

Cronin is in my mind the most important of these guys to keep. There's little we can do about the older fellas and hooker is an area where there's a big drop off in quality after the first two guys. No reason he shouldn't stay either - he's getting enough game time to be in the Ireland frame. Ross is important too, but I believe that with Bent, Hagan and the two young lads we shouldn't be struggling in the scrum any time soon.

With all of that in mind we've got some serious areas of concern. A top class NIQ centre should be top priority. One of Robbie Freuen, Richard Kahui or Conrad Smith would be ideal. Another player capable of playing the the back three could be useful too, considering that we should shed Carr and that leaves us a bit stretched.

Hopefully busy times are ahead.

 

[Tribesmen-ce-123]

I agree with all of that.

As I view it, players who aren't natives of their provinces are fair game (eg Mike McCarthy, Brett Wilkinson, Nathan White, BJ Botha, Wian Du Preez, Isa Nacewa, Isaac Boss). Players moving from abroad to provinces other than their native province are fair game (Damian Browne, Jason Harris Wright, Niall Morris, Mike Ross). Native fringe players are fair game (Felix Jones, Trevor Hogan). Native firt team players should be off limits. For that reason, if Robbie Henshaw, Dennis Buckley, John Muldoon etc were approached by another province I'd be ****** off. If the player expresses a wish to leave and instigates a move, that's okay.

Does that make sense?

McCarthy is an excellent signing. He's in his prime and Leinster should get two excellent years out of him at least. It affords them time for Quinn Roux, Tom Denton, Mark Flanagan, Tadgh Beirne and Gavin Thornbury to develop. I suspect Leo Cullen will retire at the end of the season and could possibly see Damian Browne returning to Connacht at the end of the season.

Agreed, rugby is a professional sport after all there's not room for much loyalty when its all about the money you make and the trophy's you win. Mccarthy's an ambitious guy and I suppose he sees the next few years as his last chance to win silverware. And good luck to him, his signing will certainly not weaken Leinster.

And on another note, just as I say that Ulster and Munster were after Henshaw, an article on the Connacht rugby facebook page has said he's signed a full contract until 2015. Good stuff

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

@Feicarsinn

I agree with much of that too.

It looks like Mike Ross will re-sign with Leinster next season judging from comments attributed to him in the Indo (paraphrasing: wants to stay and is happy with how negotiations are going).

van der Merwe and Cronin would be big losses. It's telling that Jack McGrath didn't get off the bench against ASM at the weekend. Joe Schmidt likes to rotate his props around the 60 minute mark to keep them fresh but he didn't trust McGrath on Sunday. There's no way he would have left van der Merwe riding the pine for 80 minutes. I'd prefer to see van der Merwe given a new two year deal while McGrath gains first team experience elsewhere. Ireland are flush with 1s right now so keeping van der Merwe won't harm looshead stocks too much.

I'd also like to see Ryan Caldwell added but I think Leinster should be setting their sights higher.

 

[Tony Manx]

Mccarthy's an ambitious guy and I suppose he sees the next few years as his last chance to win silverware. And good luck to him, his signing will certainly not weaken Leinster.

Did not take the vultures long to start filching the Connacht players then............who is next?

 

[psychic duck]

Seems that Connacht and Leinster aren't too happy with each other now.

To be fair Schmidt has a point regarding that it is Leinster's success that has allowed Connacht to be in the Heineken Cup and boosted their province's team, interest and finances as a result.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8330079,00.html

 

[big ginger 8]

Funny Hagan, Carr and Cronin are brought up as non were produced by Connacht and two were by Leinster. Agree about not taking starting homegrown players though.

 

[Peat]

Did not take the vultures long to start filching the Connacht players then............who is next?

How are Leinster vultures?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Did not take the vultures long to start filching the Connacht players then............who is next?

Interesting take on things. The IRFU imposed a 4 non-Irish players limit upon the provinces. Leinster had a hole at second row. McCarthy is an out of contract Irish second row who can improve their team. McCarthy is neither from Connacht nor produced by the Connacht academy. The player himself wants to be part of a better team and increase his chances of winning trophies.

This can be spun in many different ways. How about the IRFUs refusal to sanction a new contract for Nathan Hines meant that Leinster had to go searching for an Irish second row which lead them to McCarthy? It's their fault really! Also having McCarthy and Swift in the second row meant younger players like Browne and Kearney were seeing their opportunities limited in big games. McCarthy will replace an ageing Cullen at Leinster. This move helps Ireland's depth at second row rather than hinder it!

 

[Peat]

Thought it was five? One project player and four others?

Either way, right about everything else, particularly this being a direct result of the IRFU not sanctioning a longer contract for Hines. People said at the time that a greater emphasis on IQ players would result in Connacht losing more players, and lo and behold. The west still probably gains more from its neighbours than it loses to them.

 

[Groundhog]

I'm sad to see Connacht lose one of their best pack players, but hopefully the era of Connacht relying on the other provinces academies to produce their best players is over. To claim it's poaching is harsh. If Mccarthy was a young homegrown talent like Henshaw, O'Halloran or McSharry it would be poaching, but McCarthy is getting on in his years, he wants to achieve something big and I can't fault him

 

[Amiga500]

Connacht complain in their article, but they've gotten their fair share of Leinster players over the years too.

If Connacht signed Sean O'Brien or Cian Healy (right now), you'd have a point. But off-loading your rejects to them or your kids for "development" is not the same as taking a critical big-game player.


Connacht are being treated like **** by the IRFU... a complete rethink of how the provinces are run and allowed to compete should be undertaken. Its not fair to treat Connacht like the runt of the litter anymore.

 

[Amiga500]

One thing that has me ****** though is that the irish Times have reported that Ulster and Munster have attempted to sign Robbie Henshaw. Now he's a born and bred Connacht man and has been one of the stand out players of the year for us, if he were to go it would be another great loss.

I'll repeat what I said in another thread which touched on this.

Munster have Jones and Hurley, Ulster have Payne and Nelson. We don't need another full back, while Connacht do need Henshaw. Better for the player, Connacht and Ireland that he remain out west.

If its true (which may not be given the contract signing - D4 press trying to deflect the fallout of Leinster signing McCarthy?), I am disappointed in Davy Humphries*.


*But I suppose him looking is a natural by-product of the IRFU policy of keeping Connacht down. This needs revised.

 

[big ginger 8]

I'm sad to see Connacht lose one of their best pack players, but hopefully the era of Connacht relying on the other provinces academies to produce their best players is over. To claim it's poaching is harsh. If Mccarthy was a young homegrown talent like Henshaw, O'Halloran or McSharry it would be poaching, but McCarthy is getting on in his years, he wants to achieve something big and I can't fault him

McSharry went to Templeouge College came through the Leinster system. Still delighted to seeing him develop for Connacht love his partnership with Griffen.

 

[Feicarsinn]

@Feicarsinn

I agree with much of that too.

It looks like Mike Ross will re-sign with Leinster next season judging from comments attributed to him in the Indo (paraphrasing: wants to stay and is happy with how negotiations are going).

van der Merwe and Cronin would be big losses. It's telling that Jack McGrath didn't get off the bench against ASM at the weekend. Joe Schmidt likes to rotate his props around the 60 minute mark to keep them fresh but he didn't trust McGrath on Sunday. There's no way he would have left van der Merwe riding the pine for 80 minutes. I'd prefer to see van der Merwe given a new two year deal while McGrath gains first team experience elsewhere. Ireland are flush with 1s right now so keeping van der Merwe won't harm looshead stocks too much.

I'd also like to see Ryan Caldwell added but I think Leinster should be setting their sights higher.

Well yeah, maybe we should aim higher, but you got to consider that:

a) There are bugger all top class locks out there at the moment.
b) If we can save an NIQ spot it's another one we can use in the backs, where we're more likely to need it. We may need to bring in a foreign scrum half, centre and winger over the next season or two, so any chance we have of saving a spot should be taken.

Did not take the vultures long to start filching the Connacht players then............who is next?

I don't get why Leinster are getting a hard time over this. We're hardly being vultures, just looking out for a good player. McCarthy, as has been stated is hardly Connacht through and through. He started his careeer with Wasps and enjoyed a long enough spell at Newcastle. If he wanted to move and we wanted him then so be it. I don't see why we're at fault for looking to strengthen an area of our squad that's a weakness.

If Connacht signed Sean O'Brien or Cian Healy (right now), you'd have a point. But off-loading your rejects to them or your kids for "development" is not the same as taking a critical big-game player.


Connacht are being treated like **** by the IRFU... a complete rethink of how the provinces are run and allowed to compete should be undertaken. Its not fair to treat Connacht like the runt of the litter anymore.

Yes, but what the new Connacht CEO (Sears is it?) has to realise is that his gripe is not with Leinster and by having a go at us he's doing his province more harm than good. From what I've heard, both provinces made the same offer and McCarthy chose Leinster over Connacht, obviously with an eye toward getting his hands on some silverware. Now should Connacht be angry? Of course. But their anger should be directed at the IRFU. It's pretty obvious that McCarthy is going to be an important player for Ireland over the next two seasons, they should have been allowed to tie him up with a central contract and continue to build their squad around him. But it's not Leinster's job to look out for them, so you can't get angry at us for benefiting from the situation.

Now, here's why it was stupid for Sears to go off on a rant at Leinster. As was shown at the beginning of last season when Leinster of Munster (and now Ulster) send a young lad out to Connacht to get a bit of game time under his belt and improve as a player and then want to bring him back, they're going to face a media backlash for 'not allowing Connacht to grow' or some other such bull, despite the player always having intended to move on. Contrast this to bringing the likes of Cullen and Jennings back from Leicester, which was regarded as a great move and met with zero criticism. There's very little reason for Leinster to encourage their younger fringe players to move west as opposed to England if they eventually want to come home. This might explain why Harris-Wright, Tonetti, Morris, Sherriff, etc. all headed west before looking east. With all of this in mind the last thing Connacht need to do is go off on a rant about how mean Leinster are to them.

Not smart at all.

 

[Peat]

If Connacht signed Sean O'Brien or Cian Healy (right now), you'd have a point. But off-loading your rejects to them or your kids for "development" is not the same as taking a critical big-game player.


Connacht are being treated like **** by the IRFU... a complete rethink of how the provinces are run and allowed to compete should be undertaken. Its not fair to treat Connacht like the runt of the litter anymore.

But they are the runt of the litter. If they weren't, McCarthy wouldn't need to leave for a stab at winning a HEC - just like the youngsters before him. They generate less money and produce less players. The IRFU has simply stepped back and left it to the player and lo and behold, the bigger club wins out over the little one. That's simply the tale of sport.

I'm not the best informed on this one, and I know there is history here, but I don't see the IRFU holding Connacht down. I see Nathan White staying on in Ireland, see a whole slew of players bolstering Connacht's ranks because they're being encouraged to stay in Ireland. And hell, you don't need to hold them down. They're down because they've got a tiny support, no great tradition of producing players and the most difficult route to Heineken qualification in Europe these days. I suppose from that perspective, anything but actively lifting them up looks like holding them down, and in this case lifting them up would also directly involve dragging down Leinster.

As for Henshaw... I understand it's an emotive one, and wouldn't feel completely pleased if Ulster had signed Henshaw as that would be one hell of a kick in the nuts and I admire the strong sense of provincial loyalty, but at the same time quality IQ players are now worth their weight in gold and there's only so many of them about. I don't think he'd have been doing his job if he hadn't asked.

 

[Amiga500]

Yes, but what the new Connacht CEO (Sears is it?) has to realise is that his gripe is not with Leinster and by having a go at us he's doing his province more harm than good. From what I've heard, both provinces made the same offer and McCarthy chose Leinster over Connacht, obviously with an eye toward getting his hands on some silverware. Now should Connacht be angry? Of course. But their anger should be directed at the IRFU. It's pretty obvious that McCarthy is going to be an important player for Ireland over the next two seasons, they should have been allowed to tie him up with a central contract and continue to build their squad around him. But it's not Leinster's job to look out for them, so you can't get angry at us for benefiting from the situation.

Now, here's why it was stupid for Sears to go off on a rant at Leinster. As was shown at the beginning of last season when Leinster of Munster (and now Ulster) send a young lad out to Connacht to get a bit of game time under his belt and improve as a player and then want to bring him back, they're going to face a media backlash for 'not allowing Connacht to grow' or some other such bull, despite the player always having intended to move on. Contrast this to bringing the likes of Cullen and Jennings back from Leicester, which was regarded as a great move and met with zero criticism. There's very little reason for Leinster to encourage their younger fringe players to move west as opposed to England if they eventually want to come home. This might explain why Harris-Wright, Tonetti, Morris, Sherriff, etc. all headed west before looking east. With all of this in mind the last thing Connacht need to do is go off on a rant about how mean Leinster are to them.

Not smart at all.

But they are the runt of the litter. If they weren't, McCarthy wouldn't need to leave for a stab at winning a HEC - just like the youngsters before him. They generate less money and produce less players. The IRFU has simply stepped back and left it to the player and lo and behold, the bigger club wins out over the little one. That's simply the tale of sport.

I'm not the best informed on this one, and I know there is history here, but I don't see the IRFU holding Connacht down. I see Nathan White staying on in Ireland, see a whole slew of players bolstering Connacht's ranks because they're being encouraged to stay in Ireland. And hell, you don't need to hold them down. They're down because they've got a tiny support, no great tradition of producing players and the most difficult route to Heineken qualification in Europe these days. I suppose from that perspective, anything but actively lifting them up looks like holding them down, and in this case lifting them up would also directly involve dragging down Leinster.

As for Henshaw... I understand it's an emotive one, and wouldn't feel completely pleased if Ulster had signed Henshaw as that would be one hell of a kick in the nuts and I admire the strong sense of provincial loyalty, but at the same time quality IQ players are now worth their weight in gold and there's only so many of them about. I don't think he'd have been doing his job if he hadn't asked.

Yeah, fair enough.

I'm ****** off about it - but not exactly sure where to direct my ire. IRFU? Leinster? Munster? Ulster?

Maybe just all four. Pack of bolloxes the lot of them.