The Autopsy thread: Which England team members are for the chopping block?

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

To say Armitage was only half the player he was now is ******.

Armitages last season @ Irish he was amazing.

I'm sorry but going abroad to develop is one thing but staying there after is another thing.

Armitage was offered a deal to come back he wanted more end off.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

To say Armitage was only half the player he was now is ******.

Armitages last season @ Irish he was amazing.

I'm sorry but going abroad to develop is one thing but staying there after is another thing.
Armitage was offered a deal to come back he wanted more end off.

Haaa you seem to feel more strongly about Armitage than I can say I do! I'll defer to you in terms of his last season at Irish. All I know is that he was largely forgettable in international terms, even club level, for the most of his time at Irish. An option to be seriously considered at his height, no question about that, but at the end of the day just one option amongst a number.
I don't particularly care Armitage's reasons for staying abroad - whether he's a greedy bugger or otherwise (I imagine there's a bit of both - money has obvious appeal but also he gets to live on the French Riviera with good weather, great food, and gets to play some incredible rugby. It sounds as though he's probably very happy, whether you think he's greedy or not) Either way, I think he's hit new heights whilst out there and for me the point is I think that we shouldn't close our doors to those who do want to improve their game abroad.

If we can't respect that, we should at least respect the lessons it shows with regards to our homegrown talent experiencing rugby in different competitions around the world and how it can be transformative.
I for one would like to see far more English playing Super rugby (if they can get a contract that is!)

 

[Zed]

If England had won, you guys would be crowing and everything in the garden would be rosy.

The impression I got (pre world cup) from England rugby fans, journos etc that actually knew something about rugby was that they were less than impressed with quite a few of SL selections, most notably Burgess and Barrit and omitting players such as Cipriani.

 

[General Tah]

Isnt Cipriani the bloke who couldnt make it in Super Rugby (for the Rebels of all teams) and said no Wallaby would make the English world cup side?
Yep thats all England needed. Another passenger.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Isnt Cipriani the bloke who couldnt make it in Super Rugby (for the Rebels of all teams) and said no Wallaby would make the English world cup side?
Yep thats all England needed. Another passenger.

He's improved a hell of a lot since those days TBF.

 

[tsof]

Isnt Cipriani the bloke who couldnt make it in Super Rugby (for the Rebels of all teams) and said no Wallaby would make the English world cup side?
Yep thats all England needed. Another passenger.

Have you seen the video James O'Connor put out on twitter with Cips? Cipriani was asked which Australian player he'd take over an English counterpart and not wanting to call out a team mate, replied "none of them". Paddy Power, being Paddy Power then twisted the ghost writing to grab all the headlines, as they do.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I thought Cipriani had a number of good touches for the Rebels actually. Certainly he was their most dangerous 10 on the attack. The Rebels as a unit though is a mid-table at best team IMO through no fault of Cipriani.

I even think his comment regarding Aussie players not worth England call ups totally absurd; I mean, Pocock for a certainty should but take into account the English don't realy play out-and-out fetchers and we can probably forgive Cipriani for ruling Pocock out. I'd have the England pack beyond that even if on the day the Aussies brought it. Even in the backs I'd take the English wingers no question. Folau is a freak but has his draw backs and I'd forgive a side playing more conventional rugby opting for someone more conventional. On the Aussie halves Foley had the game of his career. No accounting for that prior to the game. Genia hasn't been in form for quite a while so would be easily discounted prior to the match leaving only the centers where I feel is the only place Cipriani had it somewhat skew but I can understand his comment was intended to rather motivate and be brief and impactful rather than an in-depth and accurate (though we are treading a subject where one cannot really be objective so..) dissertation. Too much is being made of his comments IMO.

 

[Sweats]

With some people struggling to understand the backlash being focused on the coaches, i think that for me the reason for this is that it was Lancasters favourites who most let us down this cup. Robshaw's poor decision making and never being a 7, Barritt not even being able to defend well despite this being his only strength and the drafting in of Farrell at the first sign off panic. I also have no idea why he stuck with Marler when it was clear before the game he would be targetted, why take the risk?

Another reason being the scrums poor performance. I havent seen many people mentioning this but i mentioned in the warm up games how our pack in general looked to have lost size and strength from the Warm-up camp. In my opinion, the coaches focused on fitness during this time with a plan to play an expansive game with Ford running the show behind the pack, and it led to our pack getting dominated. This was made worse by the switch to Farrell at the first sign of trouble to strengthen our defence because of how poor the pack was performing.

Ford showed his worth in the second half of the Australia game, even with Farrell and Burgess outside him. With ball in hand he is in a different league to Farrell. Personally i would still like to see a Ford/Farrell/Joseph combination line up in the middle and have no idea why this wasnt trialled in the warm ups.

 

[Hulkster]

I just hope England get this right.

Despite the disaster of the world cup, the prospect of a new approach means I am actually more excited about the future prospects of the England team now than I was a month ago.

I think many of us as time wore on became increasingly resigned to the fact that the Lancaster regime never really trusted 'flair' players in midfield and would always pick first and foremost based upon defensive strength (I don't think many other nations would describe players who posses the basic attacking skillset as 'flair' players, but there you go).

When you look at the midfield available to England, the flair players also happen to be the best.

Significant improvement will be achieved just by picking those players and committing to that approach, if not specific individuals. Committ to it that so it the first player doesn't work out, the next choice is a player of similar style.

The next 6N campaign will reveal so much about where we are headed.

There are a lot of exciting lineups available to England, I just hope someone comes along who is prepared to pick one, who will focus not just on what players can't do but what they can as well, who will apply as much importance to attack and creativity as defence when selecting players.

 

[Willodell100]

A lot of really good discussion points today. Seems like yesterday there was a lot of anger (rightfully so) but not so much clear thinking (myself included!). Seems like people have calmed down a bit and are much more considered.

I have to say I think Dean Ryan talks a lot of sense. I listened to him discuss the fall out on Sky Sports and would love him to be the first move and replace Rob Andrew as Elite Director.

I had forgotten this but Rob Andrew is culpable, more than anyone else by far, as he has been involved with the RFU since 2006. In his time he was heavily implicated in Brian Ashton's demise & the farcical period that followed in which Martin Johnson got hired and then finally fired. He was also instrumental in bringing in Andy Farrell & Stuart Lancaster into the setup.

Now we can sit here and blame the coaching staff (rightly so to an extent) but Rob Andrew has got it wrong time and time again when it comes to the biggest decisions.

My six pence (for what it's worth) for our failure to get through this pool comes down to a single moment. More than anything else when JJ picked up his chest injury v Fiji was when the wheels fell off.

SL did panic and reverted to type. He changed not just three key positions in the back line (10,12,13) but more importantly, in replacing Farrell with Ford and Barritt for Joseph, our style of attack.

Instead of taking the game to a decimated Welsh team we instead picked a team to beat them by three points.

 

[mdl1983]

First time post... I haven't read all 15 pages of replies but wanted to give my 2 pence worth...

Personally, I'm tired of knee-jerk fans who, IMHO, don't know enough about the game to call for sackings / axings / player criticism, it kicks up a storm of talk that should be restricted to football.

I think we capitulated completely this World Cup, but I think that, to a degree, the media and a share of the fans have a part to play.

Generally, when England play a game or tournament, they're expected to win, regardless. This is not realistic as we've had to go through a massive transition since SL came on board and let our players get some caps under their belts. For every 2003 WC you need a tour of hell or a 1999 WC exit...

Consider Gatland's Wales' tenure and, specifically, his 6 nations record. 2009, 2010, 2011 he had 3 4th place finishes in a row, if an England coach had that they'd be out after the 2nd, development period or not.

However, following that 6 nations the Welsh team went on to the WC Semi-Final.

Following that WC Performance, there was the GS of 2012 and then they defended the 6N in 2013. What came after that? 3rd place finishes in 2014 and 2015 before reaching at least the QF of this World Cup.

Again, if Lancaster finished 3rd 2 years in a row leading up to the World Cup, would he have been kept on?

Regarding tactics / squad changes, we seem to consider defence first rather than attack. Defence can be coached, I don't think flair can.

Foreign Player Policy > Keep it as is, those players had their opportunities, we have the players necessary.

If we're to retain Robshaw's workmanship, stick him at 6 and get a proper 7, probably Kvesic. That Australian game really highlighted the breakdown problems we're having, even in the Fiji game their Forwards were disrupting the ball we had simply by dragging players in and making a nuisance of themselves, not even necessarily competing for the ball.

Send Mako Vunipola to the Japanese school of rugby, if he could scrummage properly he would be a nailed-on Lion, his work in the loose is good, his offloads in the tackle are cracking.

There are loads of other comments to make on players but I haven't got enough time...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

First time post... I haven't read all 15 pages of replies but wanted to give my 2 pence worth...

Personally, I'm tired of knee-jerk fans who, IMHO, don't know enough about the game to call for sackings / axings / player criticism, it kicks up a storm of talk that should be restricted to football.

I think we capitulated completely this World Cup, but I think that, to a degree, the media and a share of the fans have a part to play.

Generally, when England play a game or tournament, they're expected to win, regardless. This is not realistic as we've had to go through a massive transition since SL came on board and let our players get some caps under their belts. For every 2003 WC you need a tour of hell or a 1999 WC exit...

Consider Gatland's Wales' tenure and, specifically, his 6 nations record. 2009, 2010, 2011 he had 3 4th place finishes in a row, if an England coach had that they'd be out after the 2nd, development period or not.

However, following that 6 nations the Welsh team went on to the WC Semi-Final.

Following that WC Performance, there was the GS of 2012 and then they defended the 6N in 2013. What came after that? 3rd place finishes in 2014 and 2015 before reaching at least the QF of this World Cup.

Again, if Lancaster finished 3rd 2 years in a row leading up to the World Cup, would he have been kept on?

Regarding tactics / squad changes, we seem to consider defence first rather than attack. Defence can be coached, I don't think flair can.

Foreign Player Policy > Keep it as is, those players had their opportunities, we have the players necessary.

If we're to retain Robshaw's workmanship, stick him at 6 and get a proper 7, probably Kvesic. That Australian game really highlighted the breakdown problems we're having, even in the Fiji game their Forwards were disrupting the ball we had simply by dragging players in and making a nuisance of themselves, not even necessarily competing for the ball.

Send Mako Vunipola to the Japanese school of rugby, if he could scrummage properly he would be a nailed-on Lion, his work in the loose is good, his offloads in the tackle are cracking.

There are loads of other comments to make on players but I haven't got enough time...

Don't the Japanese team actually have an Englishman in their coaching squad? I could swear it was as their scrum coach.

 

[Ocean]

Barritt really offers no progression, an extremely likeable guy but that does not help win matches. He offers absolutely nothing.

Wigglesworth, how Care wasn't in the mix is beyond me, so much more of a threat than wigglesworth.

Wood's stats are appalling, it is as though he hides during games.

So many have some serious potential, but that aint worth anything unless it equates to performance. Assume the coaching set-up needs a change to remedy that.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

First time post... I haven't read all 15 pages of replies but wanted to give my 2 pence worth...

Personally, I'm tired of knee-jerk fans who, IMHO, don't know enough about the game to call for sackings / axings / player criticism, it kicks up a storm of talk that should be restricted to football. So if your calling for a sack you don't know enough about rugby When a team under performs they should be immune to criticism? (Utter rubbish), I'm also tired of Rugby supporters getting on there high horse about Football all the time can anyone say something negative about rugby without say leave that to football

I think we capitulated completely this World Cup, but I think that, to a degree, the media and a share of the fans have a part to play. If the management or players cant handle the pressure are they ready for International rugby?

Generally, when England play a game or tournament, they're expected to win, regardless. This is not realistic as we've had to go through a massive transition since SL came on board and let our players get some caps under their belts. For every 2003 WC you need a tour of hell or a 1999 WC exit... Of course they expected to win BUT he has hardly been pressure to win until the last year.

Consider Gatland's Wales' tenure and, specifically, his 6 nations record. 2009, 2010, 2011 he had 3 4th place finishes in a row, if an England coach had that they'd be out after the 2nd, development period or not. Gatland won the Grand slam before that slump If he hadn't won that he might very well have gone, he has also won another grand slam and championship after without the resources Lancaster had hardly a comparision.

However, following that 6 nations the Welsh team went on to the WC Semi-Final. Lancatsers went out of the pool

Following that WC Performance, there was the GS of 2012 and then they defended the 6N in 2013. What came after that? 3rd place finishes in 2014 and 2015 before reaching at least the QF of this World Cup.

Again, if Lancaster finished 3rd 2 years in a row leading up to the World Cup, would he have been kept on? Personally yeh he would, he would've had more pressure on him but the media was on his side till this pre world cup

Regarding tactics / squad changes, we seem to consider defence first rather than attack. Defence can be coached, I don't think flair can. But you can coach on how to create chances for those flair players

Foreign Player Policy > Keep it as is, those players had their opportunities, we have the players necessary. Agreed

If we're to retain Robshaw's workmanship, stick him at 6 and get a proper 7, probably Kvesic. That Australian game really highlighted the breakdown problems we're having, even in the Fiji game their Forwards were disrupting the ball we had simply by dragging players in and making a nuisance of themselves, not even necessarily competing for the ball. Agreed

Send Mako Vunipola to the Japanese school of rugby, if he could scrummage properly he would be a nailed-on Lion, his work in the loose is good, his offloads in the tackle are cracking. Agreed although he is not that bad

There are loads of other comments to make on players but I haven't got enough time...

My 2 cents.

 

[ncurd]

I think I've had the most knee-jerk reaction of most people here but even then it was before the Wales game I got peed off.

 

[valley commando]

Haaa you seem to feel more strongly about Armitage than I can say I do! I'll defer to you in terms of his last season at Irish. All I know is that he was largely forgettable in international terms, even club level, for the most of his time at Irish. An option to be seriously considered at his height, no question about that, but at the end of the day just one option amongst a number.
I don't particularly care Armitage's reasons for staying abroad - whether he's a greedy bugger or otherwise (I imagine there's a bit of both - money has obvious appeal but also he gets to live on the French Riviera with good weather, great food, and gets to play some incredible rugby. It sounds as though he's probably very happy, whether you think he's greedy or not) Either way, I think he's hit new heights whilst out there and for me the point is I think that we shouldn't close our doors to those who do want to improve their game abroad.

If we can't respect that, we should at least respect the lessons it shows with regards to our homegrown talent experiencing rugby in different competitions around the world and how it can be transformative.
I for one would like to see far more English playing Super rugby (if they can get a contract that is!)

Agreed wouldn't we all prefer a job move to the sunny South of France, however it is a damn stupid rule, could you imagine if it were applied to football, No Bale for Wales, no Messi for Argentina and no Ronaldo for Portugal, whatever the sport it must have a beneficial effect on sportsmen playing in a different environment surrounded by better players, surely that would aid any International team.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Agreed wouldn't we all prefer a job move to the sunny South of France, however it is a damn stupid rule, could you imagine if it were applied to football, No Bale for Wales, no Messi for Argentina and no Ronaldo for Portugal, whatever the sport it must have a beneficial effect on sportsmen playing in a different environment surrounded by better players, surely that would aid any International team.

Gatlands Law.

 

[mdl1983]

My 2 cents.

What I am getting at regarding the knee-jerk reactors is that the media responds to the mob, and the mob responds to the media, and before you know it people lose their jobs. I'm just saying that we should wait for the dust to settle before making any decisions.

Regarding Gatland's slump, that's my point. Is it a slump if you are nurturing talent, cutting the teeth of players new to the international scene? When the result is, a few years later, a WC Semi that they could have won, followed by a GS and the 6N ***le, isn't it just what is necessary for the team to improve?

Regarding the Pool Exit, again, that's kind of my point. There is so much pressure on them to win the WC, despite Lancaster stating his aim is 2019, he's gambled on selection on the hope he'll strike gold. It was probably the toughest pool we've ever seen at a rugby world cup, we still should have beaten one of the two of Wales / Aus, but it didn't happen.

I know Mako's not that bad at scrummaging, but he's not yet world class in that field.

I wish we played more rugby in summer here.

Don't the Japanese team actually have an Englishman in their coaching squad? I could swear it was as their scrum coach.

Yeah Steve Borthwick has been the forwards coach since leaving Saracens.

- - - Updated - - -

Agreed wouldn't we all prefer a job move to the sunny South of France, however it is a damn stupid rule, could you imagine if it were applied to football, No Bale for Wales, no Messi for Argentina and no Ronaldo for Portugal, whatever the sport it must have a beneficial effect on sportsmen playing in a different environment surrounded by better players, surely that would aid any International team.

Look at the effect it had on those players who did it and then returned, the only two I can think of are Cipriani (Australia) and Haskell (NZ & Japan), both of which went on to appear for England again.

You're right, I think it is positive to mix it up, but the reason the rule is in place is because England can't get our players as and when England need them. If they could get contract clauses inserted regarding national team selection like George North did when he moved to Saints then I think scrapping the rule could be an option.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

There was no pressure for him to win the World Cup.

Pretty sure it Japan have a French scrum coach and Borthwick handles the mails and line outs.

 

[Crapspray]

Regarding Gatland's slump, that's my point. Is it a slump if you are nurturing talent, cutting the teeth of players new to the international scene? When the result is, a few years later, a WC Semi that they could have won, followed by a GS and the 6N ***le, isn't it just what is necessary for the team to improve?

Well two problems with that:

Lancaster's slump occured during the most important series of games in his career. If he timed his development then, he couldn't have picked a worse moment. Unless he thought pool exit now and a Six Nations win in 2018 were an acceptable trade.

Lancaster only picked young players en masse in 2012/13. Bar a couple of players, mainly in the wings, which he didn't change in 2012/13, we didn't see any major alterations until the Six Nations this year - which were forced through injury. He then collapsed back to his safety-first approach after developing a more attacking style slowly over the previous three years.