Test Match 3: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Auckland)

[The Jones Boy]

I'm happy with Hansen's choices.
Fekitoa on the bench is an awesome defender.
He can plug a gap in the backline and he has experience at this level.
He's been around the set up a few yearts now.

Jordie Barrett looks an inspired choice.
Laumape did well when he came on last week but lets see how he gets on as a starter.

If we keep 15 men on the park I'm confident that whatever the weather, this is ours to lose.
The Lions need to find a massive motivation and I wonder how much that win took out of them.

 

[Nubiwan]

It's not a bad shout. I've always felt that you can't really be 100% accepted as objective if you are the or recently have been the coach of one of the four nations. This would solve it. I guess it's finding someone who isn't already coaching, who is already at that level...not so easy.

Objectivity would end if you had a toss up between one player you know what you can get from, and one you are not as familiar with. That's fair enough.

Think we are seeing this at present. Fair to say we are seeing players who might not have been as certain for test starts under a different set of coaches.

 

[Nubiwan]

duplicated

 

[munstermuffin]

Does the Lions coach have to be a current 6N coach? In fact wouldn't it better if they weren't?

Would prefer them to be British though.

No sure Geechs was unattached in 2009.
Agree it should be open to club coaches

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

If the Lions had had the upper hand upfront in the first two tests I'd have given them half a chance. But they haven't dominated there and with their blunt execution of chances they'll need 60%+ in territory and possession to win this.

ABs by 23 if good conditions and 9 if poor conditions.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Another BBC article by another Scot complaining about being overlooked. I think a big of perspective has been lost the the whole Scotland issue.

Should there have been more Scots on the tour? Yes. However 3 of the contenders were injured and the other one was fighting in a position where the Lions are overflowing with talent. Hogg could well have been in the tests if not for injury and Seymour could have been too and is the only one to really be on the bad end of the 50-50 calls. I do feel there is an attitude problem in Scottish rugby, whinging this week, had a whinging story from another Scot in June about not being respected (primarily attacking the English), Hogg and Lailaw both whinged about the lack of respect from the English, it's just this constant victim complex and complaining. I suspect a fair few in the Scottish setup aren't looking at themselves objectively. They finished 4th in the 6N, for any other Lions team that is a bad result and yet Scots are somehow using the last 6N as proof they should have more people... In all but 2 years since the last time the Lions toured NZ, Scotland have finished in the bottom half of the table and they are the only Lions side to have never won the 6N.

Have they had a good year? By their standards yes. Have they proven consistent form? No. This lot were also going on about thumping England at Twickenham and I think is shows an inability to take good results without going completely over the top and getting an inflated sense of their own ability.

I just wish rather than constantly whinging about one thing or another, Scottish rugby simply went out and showed why they should be respected and why they should make up more of the team rather than simply demanding it be given to them. For all we know next year Scotland could be back to same old, on the flip side they could improve still and be even better. The point is one year of performing at the level expected of a top side is not sufficient and I think Scottish rugby should get a grip, along with quite a few of the players.

 

[Nubiwan]

Another BBC article by another Scot complaining about being overlooked. I think a big of perspective has been lost the the whole Scotland issue.

Should there have been more Scots on the tour? Yes. However 3 of the contenders were injured and the other one was fighting in a position where the Lions are overflowing with talent. Hogg could well have been in the tests if not for injury and Seymour could have been too and is the only one to really be on the bad end of the 50-50 calls. I do feel there is an attitude problem in Scottish rugby, whinging this week, had a whinging story from another Scot in June about not being respected (primarily attacking the English), Hogg and Lailaw both whinged about the lack of respect from the English, it's just this constant victim complex and complaining. I suspect a fair few in the Scottish setup aren't looking at themselves objectively. They finished 4th in the 6N, for any other Lions team that is a bad result and yet Scots are somehow using the last 6N as proof they should have more people... In all but 2 years since the last time the Lions toured NZ, Scotland have finished in the bottom half of the table and they are the only Lions side to have never won the 6N.

Have they had a good year? By their standards yes. Have they proven consistent form? No. This lot were also going on about thumping England at Twickenham and I think is shows an inability to take good results without going completely over the top and getting an inflated sense of their own ability.

I just wish rather than constantly whinging about one thing or another, Scottish rugby simply went out and showed why they should be respected and why they should make up more of the team rather than simply demanding it be given to them. For all we know next year Scotland could be back to same old, on the flip side they could improve still and be even better. The point is one year of performing at the level expected of a top side is not sufficient and I think Scottish rugby should get a grip, along with quite a few of the players.

Fair enough comment. Wales finished a beleaguered 5th in the 6N, losing to Scotland in the process, and still have 5 players in the starting Lions 15 in the 3rd test. On form, one might be forgiven for questioning the selections. Understandably, we have no one from Wales decrying the selection process. I think one or two might have admitted it has not all been merited.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

Another BBC article by another Scot complaining about being overlooked. I think a big of perspective has been lost the the whole Scotland issue.

Should there have been more Scots on the tour? Yes. However 3 of the contenders were injured and the other one was fighting in a position where the Lions are overflowing with talent. Hogg could well have been in the tests if not for injury and Seymour could have been too and is the only one to really be on the bad end of the 50-50 calls. I do feel there is an attitude problem in Scottish rugby, whinging this week, had a whinging story from another Scot in June about not being respected (primarily attacking the English), Hogg and Lailaw both whinged about the lack of respect from the English, it's just this constant victim complex and complaining. I suspect a fair few in the Scottish setup aren't looking at themselves objectively. They finished 4th in the 6N, for any other Lions team that is a bad result and yet Scots are somehow using the last 6N as proof they should have more people... In all but 2 years since the last time the Lions toured NZ, Scotland have finished in the bottom half of the table and they are the only Lions side to have never won the 6N.

Have they had a good year? By their standards yes. Have they proven consistent form? No. This lot were also going on about thumping England at Twickenham and I think is shows an inability to take good results without going completely over the top and getting an inflated sense of their own ability.

I just wish rather than constantly whinging about one thing or another, Scottish rugby simply went out and showed why they should be respected and why they should make up more of the team rather than simply demanding it be given to them. For all we know next year Scotland could be back to same old, on the flip side they could improve still and be even better. The point is one year of performing at the level expected of a top side is not sufficient and I think Scottish rugby should get a grip, along with quite a few of the players.

I'll bite. This "1 years good performance" is a nonsense.

2015 - best RWC performer out of Lions nations. One bad invented refs call away from a RWC semi final while another home nation couldn't get out of the group stage. Glasgow win Pro12.

2016 - credible in 6N with narrow loss in Wales and rising up world rankings. Glasgow Pro12 semifinalists.

2017 - outclass Wales and defeat Ireland winning numerous one on one matchups across the field in both matches against players who are picked for the Lions. Rise to 5th in world rankings (well above Wales) and defeat a near full strength Australia away from home with a completely reserve backline (reserves at club level!).

To my mind the following are all better ball handlers and arguably overall players than some of the Lions selections and their form is evident given the 6N and June test performances.

Hamish Watson
Jonny Gray
Finn Russell (outplayed Dan Carter, signed for Montpellier)
Alex Dunbar
Huw Jones (injured)
Seymour (Top Lions try scorer on this tour but still ignored?)
Hogg (didn't appear to be first choice before he got injured)

It's not whinging. It's just an objective appraisal that the Lions will squander a lot of their chances, like they have done in pretty much every game on this tour, because a bunch of quality Scottish players have been overlooked through a poor selection policy. With more Scots (and a willingness to play those that were on the tour) I'm sure the Lions would still have been heavy underdogs, but they might have mustered a bit more thrust in the opponents 22.

The bottom line is if you pick 16 players from the 7th ranked side in the world and 2 players from the 5th or 6th ranked side you are either:

i) not picking on merit
ii) conceding that the coach of the 5th ranked side can get more out of their players than you can
iii) both

To point that out as many Scots do is only giving a cool appraisal of the available information. We'll leave the whinging to those who have a problem with that!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'll bite. This "1 years good performance" is a nonsense.

2015 - best RWC performer out of Lions nations. One bad invented refs call away from a RWC semi final while another home nation couldn't get out of the group stage. Glasgow win Pro12.

2016 - credible in 6N with narrow loss in Wales and rising up world rankings. Glasgow Pro12 semifinalists.

2017 - outclass Wales and defeat Ireland winning numerous one on one matchups across the field in both matches against players who are picked for the Lions. Rise to 5th in world rankings (well above Wales) and defeat a near full strength Australia away from home with a completely reserve backline (reserves at club level!).

To my mind the following are all better ball handlers and arguably overall players than some of the Lions selections and their form is evident given the 6N and June test performances.

Hamish Watson
Jonny Gray
Finn Russell (outplayed Dan Carter, signed for Montpellier)
Alex Dunbar
Huw Jones (injured)
Seymour (Top Lions try scorer on this tour but still ignored?)
Hogg (didn't appear to be first choice before he got injured)

It's not whinging. It's just an objective appraisal that the Lions will squander a lot of their chances, like they have done in pretty much every game on this tour, because a bunch of quality Scottish players have been overlooked through a poor selection policy. With more Scots (and a willingness to play those that were on the tour) I'm sure the Lions would still have been heavy underdogs, but they might have mustered a bit more thrust in the opponents 22.

The bottom line is if you pick 16 players from the 7th ranked side in the world and 2 players from the 5th or 6th ranked side you are either:

i) not picking on merit
ii) conceding that the coach of the 5th ranked side can get more out of their players than you can
iii) both

To point that out as many Scots do is only giving a cool appraisal of the available information. We'll leave the whinging to those who have a problem with that!

2015 - By far the easiest pool in the world cup. To put it in perspective, England have NEVER lost to 3 of the 5 teams in Scotlands pool.

2016 - Yet another year finishing in the bottom half of the table, yet another year where they lose more games than they win in the 6N

2017 - Scotland's best year where they STILL finish in the bottom half of the table. Another year where Scotland absolutely implode, for some of the Scots it was twice with Glasgow falling to pieces against Sarries and some of the Scottish names being touted being at fault in one or both of the capitulations. This is the first actually "good" year from a Scottish rugby team in ages. One of those achievements (the Aussie games) happened after the Lions selections.

Now for your list of players:

Watson - Injured when Lions selection happened
Jonny Gray - Didn't outperform the other locks. 50/50 call.
Finn Russell - Completed imploded twice against English teams in the Lions year. Arguable how a case could be made for him over Ford if you want an attacking player.
Alex Dunbar - Just not good enough, sorry but he really was never a viable Lion.
Jones - Injured
Seymour - On the tour, probably should be in the test team but only as a starter, not versatile enough to be a bench player. 50/50 call
Hogg - You can't judge whether or not he was first choice. Hogg was playing in the odd numbered games. If you look at the teams in these games, this was what mostly went on to form the test teams. It appears Gatland had intended for Hogg to be the test fullback. Again injury.

So that is 2 Scots who realistically could claim to be one of the best in their position who have not been picked for the tests and one not even on tour. You then have the fact that Laidlaw has been brought in despite being one of the worst scrumhalves in the NH.

It seems the Scots can't leave the whinging for others though with Scottish players going to the press to complain, almost exclusively about the English and how we don't respect them enough. Rather than whinging to the press about the lack of respect why don't they do what everyone else must do and go out and earn it by beating England?

 

[g6mcg]

2015 - By far the easiest pool in the world cup. To put it in perspective, England have NEVER lost to 3 of the 5 teams in Scotlands pool.

2016 - Yet another year finishing in the bottom half of the table, yet another year where they lose more games than they win in the 6N

2017 - Scotland's best year where they STILL finish in the bottom half of the table. Another year where Scotland absolutely implode, for some of the Scots it was twice with Glasgow falling to pieces against Sarries and some of the Scottish names being touted being at fault in one or both of the capitulations. This is the first actually "good" year from a Scottish rugby team in ages. One of those achievements (the Aussie games) happened after the Lions selections.

Now for your list of players:

Watson - Injured when Lions selection happened
Jonny Gray - Didn't outperform the other locks. 50/50 call.
Finn Russell - Completed imploded twice against English teams in the Lions year. Arguable how a case could be made for him over Ford if you want an attacking player.
Alex Dunbar - Just not good enough, sorry but he really was never a viable Lion.
Jones - Injured
Seymour - On the tour, probably should be in the test team but only as a starter, not versatile enough to be a bench player. 50/50 call
Hogg - You can't judge whether or not he was first choice. Hogg was playing in the odd numbered games. If you look at the teams in these games, this was what mostly went on to form the test teams. It appears Gatland had intended for Hogg to be the test fullback. Again injury.

So that is 2 Scots who realistically could claim to be one of the best in their position who have not been picked for the tests and one not even on tour. You then have the fact that Laidlaw has been brought in despite being one of the worst scrumhalves in the NH.

It seems the Scots can't leave the whinging for others though with Scottish players going to the press to complain, almost exclusively about the English and how we don't respect them enough. Rather than whinging to the press about the lack of respect why don't they do what everyone else must do and go out and earn it by beating England?

Dunbar had a shocker against England but certainly has/had the potential to be a Lion.

I largely agree with the non-selection of Scots but easy to see why it winds people up and I think every nation would react similarly if they felt they lost all the marginal calls. Definitely remember indignant responses when not enough English dross was called up in 2009...

 

[The Jones Boy]

Huw Jones was a hard luck story, that guy has a lot of talent and he's well worth watching at center.

 

[duncanb]

Looking forward to RP saying to either side I'm a ref not a coach.
First yellow.
A.Smith or O.Farrell as both gobshites.
TJ on bench so he would be short odds on to annoy RP.
All blacks by +15 for me.
Or they have a mare and it's all the refs fault as is when ABs loose.

 

[mania]

Or they have a mare and it's all the refs fault as is when ABs loose.

i pretty sure the ABs owned up to the loss and didn't blame the ref. havent read anything to say otherwise

 

[The Jones Boy]

Kieran Read said the Lions were the better team and the scoreboard will tell us they were.
Silly Bill Williams robbed us of a clear cut chance to close the series out.
Hansen made a slight error by subbing Kaino too quickly, maybe, (but if the Lions scored two tries quickly after SBW left the park , through the backs, we all would have been on Hansen straight away for not subbing Kaino earlier and bringing on Laumape) and that helped Warburton (and the Lions pack) look a lot better than he did in the first test, or than he will this weekend if Kaino gets 70 minutes on the park.
Watching Kaino on Warburton is like watching Francois Pienaar on Josh Kronfeld in the 95 RWC final.
Kaino is a scary customer.
He's so powerful and unremitting.
Warburton is a good player in the way that Kronfeld was a good player.
Kaino is a great player at blindside in the way that Richard Hill was a great player at blindside.
We really missed kaino last week.
When England had their mass exodus of old guard after their 2003 triumph, it was Hill who struck me as the single biggest loss to their pack. He was a champion.
Kaino is a double champion and this weekend, he is very hungry.

 

[munstermuffin]

2015 - By far the easiest pool in the world cup. To put it in perspective, England have NEVER lost to 3 of the 5 teams in Scotlands pool.

2016 - Yet another year finishing in the bottom half of the table, yet another year where they lose more games than they win in the 6N

2017 - Scotland's best year where they STILL finish in the bottom half of the table. Another year where Scotland absolutely implode, for some of the Scots it was twice with Glasgow falling to pieces against Sarries and some of the Scottish names being touted being at fault in one or both of the capitulations. This is the first actually "good" year from a Scottish rugby team in ages. One of those achievements (the Aussie games) happened after the Lions selections.

Now for your list of players:

Watson - Injured when Lions selection happened
Jonny Gray - Didn't outperform the other locks. 50/50 call.
Finn Russell - Completed imploded twice against English teams in the Lions year. Arguable how a case could be made for him over Ford if you want an attacking player.
Alex Dunbar - Just not good enough, sorry but he really was never a viable Lion.
Jones - Injured
Seymour - On the tour, probably should be in the test team but only as a starter, not versatile enough to be a bench player. 50/50 call
Hogg - You can't judge whether or not he was first choice. Hogg was playing in the odd numbered games. If you look at the teams in these games, this was what mostly went on to form the test teams. It appears Gatland had intended for Hogg to be the test fullback. Again injury.

So that is 2 Scots who realistically could claim to be one of the best in their position who have not been picked for the tests and one not even on tour. You then have the fact that Laidlaw has been brought in despite being one of the worst scrumhalves in the NH.

It seems the Scots can't leave the whinging for others though with Scottish players going to the press to complain, almost exclusively about the English and how we don't respect them enough. Rather than whinging to the press about the lack of respect why don't they do what everyone else must do and go out and earn it by beating England?

To be fair -
Watson was best 7 in 6Nations and others were injured at selection and got picked. 1 even got to be captain.
Jonny Gray - I would argue deserved it ahead of AWJ but agree it was a tight call but he was in my squad.
Finn Russell - His form was electric to be honest, I think he deserved it ahead of Biggar but again it was only for 3rd choice.
Jones was in mix if fit. It could be argued their front row could have fought in.

But what imploded it more was the way Gatland called in the 6 lads and then acted the clown.
Of the 6 Russell and Davies deserved it but the rest I'm sorry but that literally devalued the whole debacle.

for me though it's more a case of the tour came too early for Scotland in terms of where they're at.

 

[Papsmear]

Looking forward to RP saying to either side I'm a ref not a coach.
First yellow.
A.Smith or O.Farrell as both gobshites.
TJ on bench so he would be short odds on to annoy RP.
All blacks by +15 for me.
Or they have a mare and it's all the refs fault as is when ABs loose.

What? Loose ball? Loose play? Loose lips?

 

[Nubiwan]

2015 - By far the easiest pool in the world cup. To put it in perspective, England have NEVER lost to 3 of the 5 teams in Scotlands pool.

2016 - Yet another year finishing in the bottom half of the table, yet another year where they lose more games than they win in the 6N

2017 - Scotland's best year where they STILL finish in the bottom half of the table. Another year where Scotland absolutely implode, for some of the Scots it was twice with Glasgow falling to pieces against Sarries and some of the Scottish names being touted being at fault in one or both of the capitulations. This is the first actually "good" year from a Scottish rugby team in ages. One of those achievements (the Aussie games) happened after the Lions selections.

Now for your list of players:

Watson - Injured when Lions selection happened
Jonny Gray - Didn't outperform the other locks. 50/50 call.
Finn Russell - Completed imploded twice against English teams in the Lions year. Arguable how a case could be made for him over Ford if you want an attacking player.
Alex Dunbar - Just not good enough, sorry but he really was never a viable Lion.
Jones - Injured
Seymour - On the tour, probably should be in the test team but only as a starter, not versatile enough to be a bench player. 50/50 call
Hogg - You can't judge whether or not he was first choice. Hogg was playing in the odd numbered games. If you look at the teams in these games, this was what mostly went on to form the test teams. It appears Gatland had intended for Hogg to be the test fullback. Again injury.

So that is 2 Scots who realistically could claim to be one of the best in their position who have not been picked for the tests and one not even on tour. You then have the fact that Laidlaw has been brought in despite being one of the worst scrumhalves in the NH.

It seems the Scots can't leave the whinging for others though with Scottish players going to the press to complain, almost exclusively about the English and how we don't respect them enough. Rather than whinging to the press about the lack of respect why don't they do what everyone else must do and go out and earn it by beating England?

Purely playing Devils Advocate here, but as crap and accurate as all that might appear, Scotland still beat Ireland and Wales, and have beaten the Australians, with half their team, in Australia, in 2017. How does that reflect on those three nations they beat, and the players who made the lions party?

This Lions team has clearly not been picked on form for some positions. The Lions test team has looked decidedly Welsh at times. 5 Welshmen start this weekend who will have all lost to Scotland, and finished a miserable 5th in the 6N. Then there are the Irish starters who suffered a similar fate at the hands of the Scots. So, to make points about players and their head on head performance can swing more ways than one. Jonny Gray or AWJ? Might have preferred to see a younger contender given a shot against the worlds best. Seen Finn Russell perhaps a couple of times, and the lad plays like a flanker in a 10 shirt. A compliment on his aggression.

Not a defence of Scotland, and not an attack on any other nation. Just a post to offer a different point of view.

 

[87Dreamer]

Not convinced by Laumape at all. If Teo was playing i would be worried.

I rate Moala, Fekitoa , Tamanivalu and even his partner in crime Vince Aso ahead of him.

Hope he proves me wrong.

 

[Red Enigma]

Don't worry Dreamer. Umaga, Nonu and now Laumape. He will stay around for a good few years and score more tries than any number 12 in recent history. The only handicap he has to overcome is not having Perenara at 9 from the start.

 

[Truth]

Not convinced by Laumape at all. If Teo was playing i would be worried.

I rate Moala, Fekitoa , Tamanivalu and even his partner in crime Vince Aso ahead of him.

Hope he proves me wrong.

I'm hoping Laumape can be in the type of form he has shown in the Super Rugby. He would be almost irreplaceable if he does and the All Blacks will surely win if he's on fire and I don't mean just one big play. Laumape has to play well in other aspects of the game and really keep himself busy.

Laumape was tested when the Canes played the Crusaders, tested again when the Canes played the Lions and finally truly tested on Saturday. These are the games I watched to see what impact Laumape could have. Would he have a match winning performance like SBW did for the Blues when they beat the (midweek) Lions? He stayed quiet in those two games for the Canes so I expected a quiet game from him when he finally ran on for the All Blacks. I was right.

Laumape wasn't picked for the ABs because he could quietly 'just do his job' and nothing more. He was picked because he was the best running NZ no.12 in Super so far this year, well IMO anyway. We have plenty of guys that can just do their job. So to say Laumape had a good game against the Lions on Saturday makes me question - why? cos he did his job?

Fekitoa has lost his line breaking fizz but has developed into a solid defensive player. Like I said before, Laumape isn't ready, but I don't have the proven knowledge that Hansen does and I hope Hansen and Laumape prove me wrong tomorrow night.

I'd be worried too if Laumape runs it hard and straight into Teo. Moala is good in patches, his ball playing skills in particular. Tamanivalu was not ready when he played for the All Blacks as he wasn't anything close to the Tamanivalu who played well for the Chiefs. Vince Aso isn't ready also, very promising but if he was to play tomorrow, the Lions would contain him IMO.