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Steven Shingler

So back to my original question, how do you feel about the WRU lying about having the document? This has been my point all along and which has not been answered.

If you don't wish to comment, just say so.
 
TRF_Cymro said:
Quite a few were aware, after the Jarvis-Loxton incident.

Also you are getting high and mighty here. In all honesty Wales U20s is Wales second side. Deal with it and move on. Shingler is only eligible for Wales, whether or not he was fielded legally is you being pedantic, just look at when you mentioned getting the courts involved. Evidence supplied to IRB was enough. The council will likely back up those claims. If they don't then it opens up a can of worms regarding player eligibility. As for age 18 year olds can play senior rugby again your example is an extreme one that would not happen.

@LordHope Trolling my arse. Obviously evidence provided was enough.

@welshglory Are you for real? Taking things to the extreme. He's not free to represent anyone bar from Wales I'm afraid.
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The thing is Wales U20 probably wont be Wales's 2nd side for much longer. So i dont see whats wrong with discussing the rights and wrongs of that.

I may be highlighting an extreme case but its still valid, you can't make exceptions in the rules because you feel they don' have the right motivations.

Also, why isn't Rhys elligable for NZ? As far as im aware he lives there now.
 
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LordHope said:
So back to my original question, how do you feel about the WRU lying about having the document? This has been my point all along and which has not been answered.

If you don't wish to comment, just say so.
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If they have lied then it's unacceptable, don't think I said I agreed with them lying in the first place.
 
TRF_Cymro said:
If they have lied then it's unacceptable, don't think I said I agreed with them lying in the first place.
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Didn't say you did, and am glad you don't agree with it.



Now, to find out how Scotland haven't followed the laws...
 
Here we are:

Draggs said:
If the SRU continue to push this it will look even more embarrassing. I guess you can't blame Shingler if he wants to, as he is probably done for us.

This wouldn't have even been an issue if Scotland bothered to follow the laws in the first place.
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So what, he's **** anyway. Let Scotland have him. De Luca would love it.
 
welshglory said:
Also, why isn't Rhys elligable for NZ? As far as im aware he lives there now.
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He IS eligible for New Zealand, but his eligibility has not been captured because he has not played for our First Senior side (the All Blacks) or our Second Senior side (New Zealand "A").

However, he is also still eligible for Wales, by virtue of the fact that he is Welsh by birth. He will ALWAYS be eligible for Wales unless he plays for NZ or NZ "A". Even if he continues to live in New Zealand, so long as he does not play for NZ or NZ "A", then he doesn't have to meet residency criteria in Wales to play for Wales.

This is no different from all the NZ players who play in Europe. If they never play for a country in Europe (even though they might become eligible) then they remain eligible to play for NZ e.g. Sam Broomhall and Jarrod Payne.
 
Regardless of whether there was/was'nt a signed document or not or the fact that Wales designated their under 20's as their 2nd's... I think the prob lies with the IRB allowing nations to designate u20's as 2nd's if they so wish as it produces uneven situations like this.

Wales have lost players who have represented Wales u20's because they had played against opposing u20's which weren't designated as 2nd's.

I just think that if every nation had to comply to exactly the same conditions none of this would occur.
 
How have Scotland not followed laws? Lets see, everybody knew that Wales v France was a U20's match that tied eligibility. Steven Shingler played in that match. He is tied to Wales. Scotland selected him. Disregard for IRB laws.
Can we start selecting French U20 players, or some sevens boys from around the world?
 
Draggs said:
How have Scotland not followed laws? Lets see, everybody knew that Wales v France was a U20's match that tied eligibility. Steven Shingler played in that match. He is tied to Wales. Scotland selected him. Disregard for IRB laws.
Can we start selecting French U20 players, or some sevens boys from around the world?
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Scotland selected him did they?

Funny, I can't remember seeing any team sheets including his name, if you could please provide it to clear my mind thanks.

I didn't kow that the u20 match you refer to ties players at the time, or even until a few months ago. Niether did smartcooky, nor my brother, nor my twin sisters, nor my fathere or pretty much any other family member of mine, therefore unfortunately not everyone knew that this match was of senior status.

So please do tell me where Scotland have breaches the laws, you would be interested to note that being asked to participate in a training squad is not against IRB regulations or laws.

I am willing to be a c*nt over this if you haven't noticed.
 
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Really? I do believe it was well brought up that France's U20 is the second team.
Jarvis and Loxton played for the Wales Under-20s against France in February of last year.
But the crux of the matter is whether the WRU notified the players at under-20 level, in writing or otherwise, that they would be committed to Wales.
The French Rugby Federation could also hold the key to the resolution of an increasingly bitter dispute and whether they deem their under-20s to be their second-string or A-side in the match against Wales.
If the French agree their under-20s were not their second string, it means Jarvis and Loxton are eligible to play for Ireland and, of course, still Wales.
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June 2011.

Scotland selected him for their training squad. I can only assume this meant they wanted to pick him. I don't think they just call up players for a jolly run about with the lads up at St. Andrews.

I am defending my side, you are defending yours. Can't blame either of us, honestly.
 
Difference is you are accusing the SRU of doing something they did not, which is defamation of character of course, whilst making presumptuous statements like 'everybody knew'.

An interesting but only slightly relevant note, the IRB keeps a record of all recognised matches, senior and junior, played. These fixtures and results are available for viewing on their website. The interesting bit is that the list of senior representative games (ie ones which count as official and binding matches) did not include the the referred to Wales/ France game. Little surprise it was listed as a junior game. Think this has been mended, but food for thought as to the paucity of efficiency with which the IRB is run on.
 
You, and others, perhaps, might now have known, but I would expect and international rugby union to know the limitations on players it wants to select. Indeed, perhaps not everybody knew, but it most certainly was reported during the Jarvis/Loxton case that France would be a deciding factor. From what I gather, it was acknowledged that France U20 was their second side, but Jarvis and Loxton were released due to misinformation on behalf of the WRU. If one is going to play for the Wales U20's after that case, I would honestly hope they paid attention to what was happening. Negligence could be attributed to the WRU, but ignorance certainly not.

Regarding the website, interesting, but it doesn't matter. If the IRB knew that France's U20 was not their nominated side, then they would not have deemed him exclusively Welsh. Its not like the IRB are going to try and be clever and hide the paperwork (I would imagine at least). If France A or something else was their second side, then I would have expected the IRB would have said so.
 
No law saying they can't bring someone into training, you are right, but why would they do it?
I am not saying Scotland should be brought before the IRB for anything, but honestly why would they select a player who is tied to Wales, after all that had occurred?

Should we bring in some Scotland A players who qualify for Wales (if there are any, I don't know)? It is Scotland's second team, but hey, it's not ours.

I am not altogether sure what we are debating now. The fact of the matter is that Shingler has twice been declared ineligible, following an IRB review.
 
Draggs said:
Really? I do believe it was well brought up that France's U20 is the second team.


June 2011.

Scotland selected him for their training squad. I can only assume this meant they wanted to pick him. I don't think they just call up players for a jolly run about with the lads up at St. Andrews.
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They do actually. All sides routinely ask players to come into training sessions to help with opposed training runs, and sometimes they are not eligible players. I have seen non-NZ eligible ITM Cup players at AB training sessions; Francisico Bosch (Argentina), and Isa Nacewa (Fiji) are two that I definitely recall seeing at AB training camps in the past.

This is not a breach of any Regulation that I know of. For a breach to have occurred, a player has to be named in the playing 22, and even then, if the error is spotted before kick-off, that player is simply replaced. However, if the game kicks off with that player on the bench or in the field of play, that is a different story. It is supposed to be a £100,000 fine. Instead, the WRU gets a slap on the hand with a wet tram ticket and told to carry on.... business as usual.

Its similar to what happened when Wales played two ineligible players (Shane Howarth and Brett Sinkinson) in the 2000 Six nations (a.k.a. Grannygate). What did the iRB do about it? Why of course they did what they usually to when bigger nations breach Regulations... break out the wet tram ticket!!!

Contrast that with what the iRB did to Russia when they fielded three South Africans (Johan Hendriks, Werner Pieterse and Reiner Volschenck) in the 2003 RWC qualifying series.... ejected them from the RWC and replaced them with Spain.

For the record,
I am not opposed to the idea of age-grade sides being allowed to capture eligibility, so long as ALL nations have that opportunity on an equal footing....but they don't. They have to forego fielding an "A" side, for example, England Saxons players would not have their eligibility captured if the RFU registered their U20 side as the second senior side.

Amending the regulation to capture age-grade players as of right would certainly make it much harder for countries to poach good young talent off other countries. There are quite a number of players who would not be allowed to playing for the countries they have if this were a general regulation. Martin Johnson, for one, would never have been able to play for England or the Lions, because he played for NZ U21 in 1990!! Nor would have Riki Flutey (U19 in 1999). Any thoughts of the Irish poaching Jarrod Payne would be out of the question as he also played for NZ U21.
 
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Fair points Cooky.
There is a difference in a player attending training and actually being named in the preliminary squad. The squad is made with the intent of selecting players for the 22.
 

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