Steven Shingler

[Draggs]

Have they actually lied about anything?
I believe the U20 boys knew what playing entailed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I admire your work Olyy, but I really do not have the motivation for a full response with lovely pictures of Botha, Tuilagi, et al.

For Faletau, he has played all of his regional rugby in Wales, learned the sport in Wales (played a bit at Filton College, but oh well), represented Wales through the grade ages, does that not make him Welsh?
He has lived for two thirds of his life in Wales, and has said he never really considered Tonga home now, from the little time he has spent there.

Aaaaaaanyway. Toby is a Welshman, Toby is a Welshman!

Pfft, you're no fun. Where's the outrage?
Same could be said for Tuilagi, except he came here a few years older, for secondary school.






Anyway, this whole situation is ridiculous. Scotland know they haven't got a leg to stand on, yet are STILL going on about it, even though the IRB have now ruled he can't ​play for Scotland.

 

[Seaton]

Have they actually lied about anything?
I believe the U20 boys knew what playing entailed.

The WRU said they followed their own and the IRB's protocols.

One of which is that the player must sign the referred to document regarding eligibility.

He didn't, thus the WRU lied.

Or at the worst, were ignorant of the protocols.

 

[Draggs]

The WRU said they followed their own and the IRB's protocols.

One of which is that the player must sign the referred to document regarding eligibility.

He didn't, thus the WRU lied.

Or at the worst, were ignorant of the protocols.

The way that I, the WRU, and the IRB have understood this is that the documents do not matter. The written statement were just another form of nationality binding, in addition to actually playing.
Regardless of the document, playing in Wales v France was binding.

The issue of this document was quickly brought up by the SRU, and most probably involved in the case, so the IRB panel apparently did not feel it had any influence.

What I don't get is why the SRU and most of Scotland are pushing so hard for a player who has twice been declared illegal, and represented Wales throughout grade age levels. Why didn't he play for Scotland U20?

@ Olyy. You poaching English. Not a single player in your team was born in England. Pacific poachers, etc, etc, Tindall was drunk, etc, lets jump off a ferry.
That better? And Ringer was framed.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The WRU said they followed their own and the IRB's protocols.

One of which is that the player must sign the referred to document regarding eligibility.

He didn't, thus the WRU lied.

Or at the worst, were ignorant of the protocols.

Or is Shingler lying? He was informed like other players who play before an U20 games, that if they play for the U20s then they are bound. Shingler was fully aware. Thought we had understood this.

If it was such an issue the IRB would have backed SRU's case and not the WRU's one. Scotland should just move on.

 

[Peat]

The WRU said they followed their own and the IRB's protocols.

One of which is that the player must sign the referred to document regarding eligibility.

He didn't, thus the WRU lied.

Or at the worst, were ignorant of the protocols.

This is true, and I seem to recall from reading the IRB rules on this that playing an ineligible player carries a £100,000 fine. Although as pointed out, the IRB don't seem very fussed about this.

Anyway, to judge from the newspaper articles I read, this isn't done. They seem intent on closing this loophole in the near future, and you can bet your bottom dollar Scotland will try and ask for a retroactive clearing of Shingler's eligibility once its done. This is a train crash that just keeps on giving...

Maybe England should try for him, or are they just happy with South Sea Islanders? (lights touch papers and legs it)

Not good enough for us tbh.

 

[Draggs]

Or is Shingler lying? He was informed like other players who play before an U20 games, that if they play for the U20s then they are bound. Shingler was fully aware. Thought we had understood this.

If it was such an issue the IRB would have backed SRU's case and not the WRU's one. Scotland should just move on.

Bang on. The IRB simply wouldn't turn a blind eye to the WRU's negligence if there was any. After the Jarvis situation, there was no excuse to be uninformed. If Shingler really didn't know then it is his fault. He is a professional and it is his career; his reponsibility to know what he is doing. If he felt so Scottish, than why did he appear in an advertisment as the next Welsh 10, or represent Wales U20, or say that he wanted to get into Welsh reckoning in November? Donkey Derwyn is getting his revenge for everybodioes contempt of him, sending our players abroad.

 

[smartcooky]

Or is Shingler lying? He was informed like other players who play before an U20 games, that if they play for the U20s then they are bound. Shingler was fully aware. Thought we had understood this.

Only when/if they play France U20, which is the only other U20 team that is registered as their Union's "second" senior team.

This whole thing is a crock of shite. U20 teams are NOT senior teams, they are junior teams and they should not be allowed to be registered as Senior teams under Regulation 8. The official name of the U20 WC is the "IRB Junior World Championship". There is no way in the wide world that U20 matches should be capturing eligibility. Shingler would have a good case to take to civil court for breach of natural justice.

 

[Draggs]

Maybe, but 18 is considered to be an adult by the IRB. The laws could very well change to ban U20 nomination, but it shouldn't be retroactive.
If the SRU continue to push this it will look even more embarrassing. I guess you can't blame Shingler if he wants to, as he is probably done for us.

This wouldn't have even been an issue if Scotland bothered to follow the laws in the first place.

 

[Seaton]

The way that I, the WRU, and the IRB have understood this is that the documents do not matter. The written statement were just another form of nationality binding, in addition to actually playing.
Regardless of the document, playing in Wales v France was binding.

The issue of this document was quickly brought up by the SRU, and most probably involved in the case, so the IRB panel apparently did not feel it had any influence.

What I don't get is why the SRU and most of Scotland are pushing so hard for a player who has twice been declared illegal, and represented Wales throughout grade age levels. Why didn't he play for Scotland U20?

They are pushing for it because the alternative is Graeme Morrison/ another rookie.

Don't under-estimate the direness of that situation! :lol:

Or is Shingler lying? He was informed like other players who play before an U20 games, that if they play for the U20s then they are bound. Shingler was fully aware. Thought we had understood this.

If it was such an issue the IRB would have backed SRU's case and not the WRU's one. Scotland should just move on.

As I have (I thought rather clearly) stated, I refer to the document the players are supposed to have signed, as stipulated in Regulation 8:

20. What must Unions do to ensure (and demonstrate) compliance with the eligibility Regulations?

Unions must ensure that before a Player is selected for the first time for its senior or next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or its senior National Representative Sevens Team the Player completes the standard form declaration attached to these Explanatory Guidelines at Schedule 1.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/04/23/28/42328_pdf.pdf

This line is quoted from the IRB press release:

Shingler had not signed the Union eligibility confirmation

Ergo, the WRU have not followed regulations and protocol, thus should be fined £100 000.

Now to answer your questions without answering with a counter-question.

I don't know if Shingler was lying, I don't know him and wasn't present at the time he was alledgedly (don't get your knickers in a twist ) told of the consequences of playing in a 'senior' match. What I do know is that a document which would have beyond doubt confirmed Shingler was told, is one with his signature on it. I would be very interested to see what evidence was produced to the IRB, because in court the witness submissions that would be taken into account would be those of a third party, ie not Mr/ Mrs/ Bro Shingler or a WRU representative.

People have told me before they understood something, and later actions showed otherwise. Most of the time it is because they didn't understand or were incompetent, not a genuine attempt at deceit. So without knowing the facts of how Shingler was/ was not told, how clear it was and/ or if Shingler understood, as much as we would like to we can't point fingers at him and accuse him of lying.

Boarding now, so will have to cut this short, but with regards to Draggs latest post... I am speechless.

What laws have Scotland not followed?

 

[Draggs]

@LordHope. I am just surprised that the SRU tried to make a move for Shingler after he had played for the Welsh U20's after what happened last year.
Where are you headed mate?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Only when/if they play France U20, which is the only other U20 team that is registered as their Union's "second" senior team.

This whole thing is a crock of shite. U20 teams are NOT senior teams, they are junior teams and they should not be allowed to be registered as Senior teams under Regulation 8. The official name of the U20 WC is the "IRB Junior World Championship". There is no way in the wide world that U20 matches should be capturing eligibility. Shingler would have a good case to take to civil court for breach of natural justice.

As Draggs says 18 years you become an adult in rugby and pretty much in the real world. As for the taking to the court, get a grip, this is the society we now live in where everything has to go to court. Hence why things have become so PC.

They are pushing for it because the alternative is Graeme Morrison/ another rookie.

Don't under-estimate the direness of that situation! :lol:



As I have (I thought rather clearly) stated, I refer to the document the players are supposed to have signed, as stipulated in Regulation 8:

20. What must Unions do to ensure (and demonstrate) compliance with the eligibility Regulations?

Unions must ensure that before a Player is selected for the first time for its senior or next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team or its senior National Representative Sevens Team the Player completes the standard form declaration attached to these Explanatory Guidelines at Schedule 1.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/regulations/04/23/28/42328_pdf.pdf

This line is quoted from the IRB press release:

Shingler had not signed the Union eligibility confirmation

Ergo, the WRU have not followed regulations and protocol, thus should be fined £100 000.

Now to answer your questions without answering with a counter-question.

I don't know if Shingler was lying, I don't know him and wasn't present at the time he was alledgedly (don't get your knickers in a twist ) told of the consequences of playing in a 'senior' match. What I do know is that a document which would have beyond doubt confirmed Shingler was told, is one with his signature on it. I would be very interested to see what evidence was produced to the IRB, because in court the witness submissions that would be taken into account would be those of a third party, ie not Mr/ Mrs/ Bro Shingler or a WRU representative.

People have told me before they understood something, and later actions showed otherwise. Most of the time it is because they didn't understand or were incompetent, not a genuine attempt at deceit. So without knowing the facts of how Shingler was/ was not told, how clear it was and/ or if Shingler understood, as much as we would like to we can't point fingers at him and accuse him of lying.

Boarding now, so will have to cut this short, but with regards to Draggs latest post... I am speechless.

What laws have Scotland not followed?

As Draggs mentioned with the Jarvis / Loxton case ... Wales made an error there and were punished. It is highly unlikely that within a short space that Wales would make a similar error again. All U20s players were informed after this case that this would be the situation.

As for how clear, they are sat down as a whole squad in a team meeting and informed of this. Shingler shot himself in the foot by appearing in a TV advert wanting to play for Wales, as well as appearing for Wales U20s.

 

[Peat]

If Wales have not made this mistake, then where is the signed document, and why are the SRU and Shingler claiming it was not signed? This is a fairly open and shut issue. Either the document was signed and exists, or it doesn't. Either Wales made a mistake and should be fined, or Shingler is lying, and it would be very easy to prove he is. I am very surprised that the document hasn't been produced.

I do not believe the signing of the document should change Shingler's eligibility one way or the other. I believe he knew, indeed his statement says he knew, and the signing of the document is irrelevant in my opinion although legally things might be different. Nor do I believe his eligibility should be changed unless the IRB was to admit they were wrong to allow the nomination of age grade teams as next senior teams all along, which they won't, although I believe they may well change it anyway.

But it does seem likely they will change the classification, and rightly so, as I've yet to see anyone argue in favour of it who wasn't Welsh. Plus, having a genuine affiliation for one nationality doesn't bar having an equally genuine affiliation for another. Think several of the Welsh lads could do with taking a step back and thinking what they'd say if this was the other way around, as its coming across as very one-eyed.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

If Wales have not made this mistake, then where is the signed document, and why are the SRU and Shingler claiming it was not signed? This is a fairly open and shut issue. Either the document was signed and exists, or it doesn't. Either Wales made a mistake and should be fined, or Shingler is lying, and it would be very easy to prove he is. I am very surprised that the document hasn't been produced.

I do not believe the signing of the document should change Shingler's eligibility one way or the other. I believe he knew, indeed his statement says he knew, and the signing of the document is irrelevant in my opinion although legally things might be different. Nor do I believe his eligibility should be changed unless the IRB was to admit they were wrong to allow the nomination of age grade teams as next senior teams all along, which they won't, although I believe they may well change it anyway.

But it does seem likely they will change the classification, and rightly so, as I've yet to see anyone argue in favour of it who wasn't Welsh. Plus, having a genuine affiliation for one nationality doesn't bar having an equally genuine affiliation for another. Think several of the Welsh lads could do with taking a step back and thinking what they'd say if this was the other way around, as its coming across as very one-eyed.

How do you not know that the document has not been produced? Question is ... the IRB would have asked for evidence and Wales have apparently provided. Pretty open and shut case with the rules. IRB have backed Wales. I presume the Council will do the same.

SRU are desperate for decent players. Why should Wales lose out on a player who has been produced in a Welsh Academy and played rugby for Wales at youth level?

EDIT: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/15773032 - Shingler himself said he wanted to play for Wales ... back in November.

 

[welshglory]

So if he hadn't played against France U20s and still qualified for Scotland you would take issue with him playing for them. Why is this? Its not like the WRU own him, he's free to represent whichever country he qualifies for.

Here's an interesting example. In last years U20 Junior World Championship a Bridgend born and bred Welshman played for NZ U20. Do you think that he should have the right to represent Wales and NZ? FYI He went to NZ because he got a scholarship to a school.

 

[smartcooky]

Before all this news broke, was anyone on this forum aware that Wales had registered their U20 side as their second senior side, with all that this implies?

Did anyone here know that it was even allowed?

Be truthful with your answer!!!


Now 18 years olds may well be adults, but the U20 sides are NOT Senior Sides by any definition; even the iRB calls the U20 World Cup the Junior World Championship, so what does "Junior" mean in this sense.

Those who believe that U20 team ought to be regarded as "Senior" need to think hard about what they are saying. They are implying that these teams would be capable of footing it with other Senior rugby sides. This mean they ought to be able to play against the First Senior side of any country in a fair contest. Given that Wales U20 were smashed 92-0 by the New Zealand U20 side at the last JWC, would you be happy to see Wales U20 play against a full strength All Blacks or Springbok side?

Surely it would be lambs to the slaughter, and even worse, the scrummaging would certainly endanger the safety of the Welsh front row.

Here's an interesting example. In last years U20 Junior World Championship a Bridgend born and bred Welshman played for NZ U20. Do you think that he should have the right to represent Wales and NZ? FYI He went to NZ because he got a scholarship to a school.

Thats a great example of what I am talking about. Rhys Llewleyn is free to go back to Wales and play for them if selected.

 

[Seaton]

How do you not know that the document has not been produced? Question is ... the IRB would have asked for evidence and Wales have apparently provided. Pretty open and shut case with the rules. IRB have backed Wales. I presume the Council will do the same..

We know there is no document, because even the WRU admitted to the IRB in the hearing that they didn't have it.

I have a feeling you are trolling, this press release has been referred to several times and I even quoted it.

And just in case anyone doesn't know my personal feelings as to whether or not he should play for Scotland, I am non-plussed.

On the one hand, he gives a further and better option.

On the other, he is about as Scottish as ShontaymeHape is English, mother or not as he has played Wales.

 

[smartcooky]

We know there is no document, because even the WRU admitted to the IRB in the hearing that they didn't have it.

If that is true, then the WRU illegally fielded an ineligible player (Shingler) in the last JWC. If he was ineligible, then the fact that he played should not count because he should not have even been on the park!!!

This breach of regulations is being glossed over and it shouldn't be. Its similar to what happened last time Wales tried some dodgy stuff around player eligibility. Who remembers Grannygate? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/rugby_union/752625.stm

 

[Seaton]

@LordHope. I am just surprised that the SRU tried to make a move for Shingler after he had played for the Welsh U20's after what happened last year.
Where are you headed mate?

Back in the UK, now if you could please clarify your defamation of the SRU.

What/ Which laws did they break?

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Before all this news broke, was anyone on this forum aware that Wales had registered their U20 side as their second senior side, with all that this implies?

Did anyone here know that it was even allowed?

Be truthful with your answer!!!


Now 18 years olds may well be adults, but the U20 sides are NOT Senior Sides by any definition; even the iRB calls the U20 World Cup the Junior World Championship, so what does "Junior" mean in this sense.

Those who believe that U20 team ought to be regarded as "Senior" need to think hard about what they are saying. They are implying that these teams would be capable of footing it with other Senior rugby sides. This mean they ought to be able to play against the First Senior side of any country in a fair contest. Given that Wales U20 were smashed 92-0 by the New Zealand U20 side at the last JWC, would you be happy to see Wales U20 play against a full strength All Blacks or Springbok side?

Surely it would be lambs to the slaughter, and even worse, the scrummaging would certainly endanger the safety of the Welsh front row.




Thats a great example of what I am talking about. Rhys Llewleyn is free to go back to Wales and play for them if selected.

Quite a few were aware, after the Jarvis-Loxton incident.

Also you are getting high and mighty here. In all honesty Wales U20s is Wales second side. Deal with it and move on. Shingler is only eligible for Wales, whether or not he was fielded legally is you being pedantic, just look at when you mentioned getting the courts involved. Evidence supplied to IRB was enough. The council will likely back up those claims. If they don't then it opens up a can of worms regarding player eligibility. As for age 18 year olds can play senior rugby (18 years old in the UK makes you an adult who can make adult decisions), again your example is an extreme one that would just not really happen in the world of rugby.

@LordHope Trolling my arse. Obviously evidence provided was enough.

@welshglory Are you for real? Taking things to the extreme. He's not free to represent anyone bar from Wales I'm afraid.


However I do believe that the IRB need to re-address the eligibility rule. Think I've read somewhere they will do so at the end of the current NH season.

Also replying to this in the car on tap talk is not fun.