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Steffon Armitage wanting to play for France.?!

Not really - they spent about 4-5 years there in their early teens before moving back to England.
 
If this is true, it isn't him wanting to play for France that bothers me. It's that he has already played for England and continues to say he wants to play for England. He could very well play for England, would easily get into the England squad, but he chose the money and lifestyle of France over it. I am not upset with him for picking the French club rugby over international honours, but I am upset that he's trying to get both whilst making a total mockery of the eligibility rules in the process.
 
I actually don't mind the fact that players could potentially swap to another test nation regardless of cap(s) per se. For me it would depend on the specific circumstances. Guys like Brian Mujati and Tondi Chavanga born in Zimbabwe but capped for SA I would love to see back in test rugby playing for Zim if they were to make the 2015 RWC. Much better than them just laying around in club rugby if I could put it like that and they are legitimately Zimbabwean. Someone like Beast, Ngwenya or Pocock though I would now see as thoroughy SA-, USA and Aus-nized though these players have played for their countries within the last 18 months so that is beside the point... though I'm not sure when last Pocock did play for Aussie.

Steffon Armitage playing for France I don't see as being anymore silly than the load of SAns playing there; he seems to slot in and has only 5 caps for England so one couldn't call him a fixture of English rugby IMO. If he has lived in France for 5 years during childhood then I see that as significant. Just as significant if not more so as the likes of Bernard le Roux having 'French blood' ancestrally.

So I suppose my opinion is if the player hasn't played more than a single season for one nation, has some form of link to the country he wants to switch too (born there, blood ties, ancestry, spent time there during childhood etc) then I am willing to forget that season and a few caps if it means quality players are playing test rugby and/or smaller unions like Zimbabwe and possibly some of the PI nations being more competitive.
 
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I would be ok with a player going from tier 1 to tier 2/3/4 it would help the global game significantly.

But to move from England to France is ridiculous.
 
goodNumber10 said:
I would be ok with a player going from tier 1 to tier 2/3/4 it would help the global game significantly.

But to move from England to France is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

stormer2010 said:
I actually don't mind the fact that players could potentially swap to another test nation regardless of cap(s) per se. For me it would depend on the specific circumstances. Guys like Brian Mujati and Tondi Chavanga born in Zimbabwe but capped for SA I would love to see back in test rugby playing for Zim if they were to make the 2015 RWC. Much better than them just laying around in club rugby if I could put it like that and they are legitimately Zimbabwean. Someone like Beast, Ngwenya or Pocock though I would now see as thoroughy SA-, USA and Aus-nized though these players have played for their countries within the last 18 months so that is beside the point... though I'm not sure when last Pocock did play for Aussie.

Steffon Armitage playing for France I don't see as being anymore silly than the load of SAns playing there; he seems to slot in and has only 5 caps for England so one couldn't call him a fixture of English rugby IMO. If he has lived in France for 5 years during childhood then I see that as significant. Just as significant if not more so as the likes of Bernard le Roux having 'French blood' ancestrally.

So I suppose my opinion is if the player hasn't played more than a single season for one nation, has some form of link to the country he wants to switch too (born there, blood ties, ancestry, spent time there during childhood etc) then I am willing to forget that season and a few caps if it means quality players are playing test rugby and/or smaller unions like Zimbabwe and possibly some of the PI nations being more competitive.
Click to expand...

This!

So Olyy, You are okay with guys like Brad Barrit switching from SA to England, or Clyde Rathbone switching from SA to Aus (which, to this date is still unforgivable)? Rathbone was our under 20 Springbok Captain, and went across the year after. Whenever there is a loophole, people will look at exploiting it. For years it was the "Grandparents-rule", now it's the 7's giving guys some extra room to switch. Why is this seen different? I can't see the Difference between Armitage, Brad Barritt or Clyde Rathbone. Is it purely because he's switching from England to France?

Us saffas are now used to this kind of treachery, good luck with processing this news when he eventually does make the switch...
 
It's only 5 caps though. Certainly not ideal and I get where English posters are coming from but it's not like it's gonna change anything for England and 1 extra player for France can only make so much difference. Again, he only has 5 caps for England- hardly a regular fixture of English rugby.

Maybe as a South African I have just become so used to our players playing for other test sides (in both rugby and cricket) that it just doesn;'t bother me any more. In fact it adds some spice and interest to many matches for me; little sub-themes when we face them or watching France I actually cheer on the SA players in the team (up until we face them of course).
 
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You are okay with guys like Brad Barrit switching from SA to England, or Clyde Rathbone switching from SA to Aus (which, to this date is still unforgivable)? Rathbone was our under 20 Springbok Captain, and went across the year after. Whenever there is a loophole, people will look at exploiting it. For years it was the "Grandparents-rule",
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I'm not okay with it but there is a massive difference between playing 5 caps for your country, and saying you want more, then go to France because you prefer the money of Toulon. Players like Barritt who haven't played for their country then perform over here and then getting selected because they wont get into their country of origin. I'm sure you were deeply upset by the treachery of The beast, Chavhanga, Mujati.
 
TheSaffycen said:
I'm not okay with it but there is a massive difference between playing 5 caps for your country, and saying you want more, then go to France because you prefer the money of Toulon. Players like Barritt who haven't played for their country then perform over here and then getting selected because they wont get into their country of origin. I'm sure you were deeply upset by the treachery of The beast, Chavhanga, Mujati.
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The point I'm trying to make is that there isn't suppose to be a difference when a guy plays for the senior, 7's or u/20 teams. I a guy played for any of those teams, it shows that at some stage in his his life, he was proud to pull over the national team's kit over his head and wear their colours with pride. I mentioned those 3 guys because they represented 2 different countries during their time as an adult and proffessional rugby player.

Mentioning Beast, Chavanga and Mujati is a moot-point to my discussion, as they never played for Zimbabwe, and by the time they reached adulthood (which is 18 years old) they were already in SA.

To me it's about the guys getting picked to represent their country at some stage in their career, and then they fall off the wagon or something, and then wants to give it another go at another country where they might have an easier route to the top.
 
heineken said:
This!

So Olyy, You are okay with guys like Brad Barrit switching from SA to England, or Clyde Rathbone switching from SA to Aus (which, to this date is still unforgivable)? Rathbone was our under 20 Springbok Captain, and went across the year after. Whenever there is a loophole, people will look at exploiting it. For years it was the "Grandparents-rule", now it's the 7's giving guys some extra room to switch. Why is this seen different? I can't see the Difference between Armitage, Brad Barritt or Clyde Rathbone. Is it purely because he's switching from England to France?

Us saffas are now used to this kind of treachery, good luck with processing this news when he eventually does make the switch...
Click to expand...

I must've missed the part where Brad Barritt had caps for the Springboks. He was born with a British passport.

I don't particularly like having foreigners playing for England, no. However if a player puts all his cards on one country, and is fully committed, then fair play - Nathan Hines isn't Scottish at all but he gave a hell of a lot to the thistle.
Switching allegiance because you're not being selected (or putting yourself out of contention) is stupid. If you felt such a bond for that nation then why go and play for their opposition in the first place?
It just sets a dangerous precedent, especially in the NH, where there are a lot of foreigners playing club rugby.
imagine if, a few years back, wales had an injury crisis in the back row and then Jerry Collins turned out for them?
England lose a few players to injury before the AIs so chuck Dan braid into the back row? Or bring Brits in for an injured Hartley? (I know brits has been capped within 18months but just for the sake of argument :p)
 
heineken said:
Well he did play for the U/20 Springboks and Emerging Springboks, just not the Springbok senior team.
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....so he didn't have caps for the springboks :p

I get what you mean, though. It's not great, but not on the same level as Armitage, nowhere near.
 
You're talking about Armitage's 5 caps as if he's somehow a minor English player - everyone was very excited about him when he was first selected and most people would like him to come back and play club rugby here.
In fact he's very well known here.
He could have come back and got more caps - but decided he didn't want to because Stuart Lancaster assumed that any English players in France didn't want to play for England because they moved there knowing the rules.

What if the Boks had decided two years ago that they weren't going to pick overseas players and Flouw decided he was going to stay in Bath anyway - during that time he's asked by journalists "do you want to play for SA" and he says "yes".
Then all of a sudden he gets himself a British passport and gets capped by England? Does that not seem a little ridiculous to you?

I accept that some people do have a more complicated sense of national identity - but to allow people to switch between Tier 1 sides sets a precedent that could get ****ing nasty.
 
The solution would be for the RFU to offer central contracts in addition to what the players earn at their clubs. They certainly can afford to do so and would hep keep the best English players in AP and thus available for England to pick them. Imagine Steffon Armitage + Manu Samoa ripping defences to bits.
 
PRL does not allow centrally contracted players.

Steffon's issue seems to be that no-one from the RFU contacted him to ask him to come back.
 
I seem to remember Lancaster also said he's not interested in having him, so that didn't help either :)
 
ratsapprentice said:
PRL does not allow centrally contracted players.

Steffon's issue seems to be that no-one from the RFU contacted him to ask him to come back.
Click to expand...

Why would they? He plays on France.

Are we really losing our best players to France? Struggling to think who has gone that would be a shoe in for 2015.
 
We're not exactly losing players by the bucketload, either. Most players who have gone haven't been regular internationals - think it's only really Haskell, Wilko and Delon Armitage that have gone, and Haskell turned down contracts to come back.
 

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