Spring Tour:New Zealand vs Ireland - 1st Test. (09/06/2012, 08:35 GMT)

[killer08]

maybe the pitch will be unplayable and we'll get the draw when its reschedule

 

[munstermuffin]

MM - On the Reddan logic, would you agree with a hypothesis that Madigan should be ahead of ROG on the same logic?

Also, the Gilroy argument is based on a lot more than the Baabaas game, and I've seen a lot more people telling me he looked the part out there than I've seen talking him down.

Henry's probably not fully fit tbh. He hasn't been for a while and picked up a knock in the Baabaas game.

Peat everyone in Munster realises ROG should be benching for Munster to allow Keatley to develop. So that and based on form I'd be in favour of Madigan over ROG. Only concern about Madigan in my view is issue of a goal kicker. So yea it should be Madigan over ROG.

On Gilroy I'm not saying he's had a bad season or anything just simply Zebo had a superb season overall and has the better strike rate. Simply put if Gilroy was even on tour and started I'd understand but think Zebo deserves his shot too

 

[big ginger 8]

Unlike others I'm not really happy about this team. Yeah it's a good sign that Kidney is willing to experiment but I think he's going about it the wrong way. If his plan from the out set was to experiment he selected the wrong squad. Also while no one is giving us a chance this is widely considered our best chance on this tour and if there is a chance no matter how slim you have to go for it. I am happy with the pack. It's the best available and it's good that Tuohy has finally gotten the chance he deserves.

The backs however or another story. Murray at nine is not the right choice for this match. If you want to win Reddan offers the best chance he provides quick ball and has an excellent understanding with Sexton and SO'B. If you want to experiment why not Marshall? Yes he's 26 but he'll be around for the next W.C. and is the more exciting talent. Then at 12 it's a wing who can play 13 to a decent level. I think that we will end up playing left and right centers instead of the traditional inside and outside centers. I still however question Earls' distribution and maybe his defense at 12 where you usually get much bigger customers. Than on the left wing we have in my opinion one of the only wings in international rugby who will let Guilford break a tackle. For all his praise this year I in no way thing he is ready for this. He is fast there's no disputing that he's probably the fastest in the squad, he's a good finisher not a great one as some have suggested and he's pretty solid under the high ball. He is however incredibly suspect on defense. A lot of people call him exciting I in no way buy into this the only way he knows to beat someone is to burn them. This won't work to well against Guilford and Dagg. Honestly I think the only reason he's considered exciting is because every time he catches a kick the Munster crowd make some noise and he does a pointless goose step before promptly doing nothing. Despit what some say Gilroy would have been the far better choice possibly even O'Hallorn. Now McFadden. The way Kidney treats him amazes me. Everyone agrees his best position is 12 yet as far as I can remember he's never played there for Ireland! He even went as far as in the 6n subbing D'arcy...for RO'G. I also think Trimble would have been very useful in this match. Savea is a highly physical wing and I believe Trimble would have been able to counter act him perfectly.

 

[coonor]

Peat everyone in Munster realises ROG should be benching for Munster to allow Keatley to develop. So that and based on form I'd be in favour of Madigan over ROG. Only concern about Madigan in my view is issue of a goal kicker. So yea it should be Madigan over ROG.

On Gilroy I'm not saying he's had a bad season or anything just simply Zebo had a superb season overall and has the better strike rate. Simply put if Gilroy was even on tour and started I'd understand but think Zebo deserves his shot too

The thing is Gilroy has been consistently good for the last 2 seasons and has reached higher successes with Ulster. It just think that Gilroy has proven himself more and on a bigger stage for a longer time. He seems to have a greater all round game aswell. Put it this way, Zebo is very similar to Gilroy in his first year of senior rugby. A terrific try scorer, but since then Gilroy has improved his all round game and offers more than Zebo. basically Zebo is a year behind in development, I have no doubt that he has just as much ability to develop to be on the level of Gilroy or even better but as it stands I can't see how Zebo has proven himself to be better than Gilroy.

 

[big ginger 8]

The fact of the matter is, only a few Irish players have ever performed particularly well against us, at least in recent years. Beyond BOD and a couple of others, when was the last time one of the Irish players actually stood out against NZ, in a good way?

Ireland have never beaten us, their players may be good when playing H Cup, or in the Six Nations or whatever, but they don't retain those standards against NZ for whatever reason. I'm sure there are some good players in the team, but until you prove you can play well against the top team in the world, it's all a bit irrelevant.

Ireland could beat us, sure, but does anyone realistically think they have a chance of doing so? Not really.

If those are the best highlights for him, well... Yeah, it just reinforces my point

Really? is that it? - A tackle, a couple runs, a drive to the line and a couple passes - that qualifies as greatness?

Thanks for proving my point lads. The Buckley comment was tongue in cheek but he was rather better that day than the video suggests. How self involved is it to think if a player hasn't performed against you guys? Up until now we haven't played you too regularly. Anyway Kearney, D'arcy, Trimble, Healy, Heaslip and Ferris off the top of my head have had good games against you. Also South Africa were the top team in the world three years ago and we had plenty of good performers against them and also made up the bulk of the Lions tour providing many of the top performers.

 

[irelandfan123]

Where is this game being televised?
Not too pleased with selection, not too disappointed
Things that gripe me :
Earls at 12, Why? I haven't seen him preform extremely well at 12 or heard of him playing 12
Ulster wings ignored, Trimble is more experienced and reliable and Gilroy has played well all year and has been playing all round better than Zebo and he can tackle
Things that make me happy:
Young and Touhy is involved in the starting 22

 

[big ginger 8]

Where is this game being televised?
Not too pleased with selection, not too disappointed
Things that gripe me :
Earls at 12, Why? I haven't seen him preform extremely well at 12 or heard of him playing 12
Ulster wings ignored, Trimble is more experienced and reliable and Gilroy has played well all year and has been playing all round better than Zebo and he can tackle
Things that make me happy:
Young and Touhy is involved in the starting 22

Sky Sports are the only ones here at least showing all three tests.

 

[irelandfan123]

Sky Sports are the only ones here at least showing all three tests.

Happy days, Cheers

 

[Darwin]

Well Kidney has officially surprised me, and pleasantly too. Like I said yesterday when rumours of this line-up were going around I don't agree with all of the decisions made (Murray ahead of Reddan, Zebo ahead of Gilroy etc.), but I'd support it as a selection due to the change of mindset it shows on the part of the Irish coaching staff. For too long they've been inflexible and conservative in relation to both selection and game-plan, and hopefully this change in selection policy indicates a change of game-plan as well.

In relation to O'Callaghan, he is no longer a first choice starter at club level, so in spite of all his experience I don't think his inclusion in the starting fifteen would have been justified.

You're right in that the backline configuration does look a little odd. However, given that a number of the players selected have played and can play in multiple backline positions (McFadden -11,12,13,14- Earls -11,13,14,15- O'Driscoll -12,13- Sexton -10,12-) I'd imagine they might move around between positions during the match.

Trimble probably didn't deserve to be dropped but must have just missed out.

The backline is both exciting and worrying at the same time. With the inclusion of Earls and Zebo it's one of the paciest we've put out for quite a while. However both Earls and Zebo have had their defensive abilities questioned in the past, so we'll just have to see how they get on.

Thanks for that osullie. Am I right to suggest Zebo is one of the fastest wings in Ireland? If that is the case, it will be an interesting match-up between himself and Guildford, who is also very quick.

maybe the pitch will be unplayable and we'll get the draw when its reschedule

Possible showers forecast, but I don't think the weather will be too bad. If, however, the match had been scheduled for Christchurch it may have been another story, as last time I looked they were knee deep in snow

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads Earls will be at 13, he's just wearing 12.
As for Gilroy vs Zebo call. Gilroy isn't even on tour. Yes he has been good but Zebo has been good too. Who has been better well peoples opinions vary but well both deserve chance.

 

[big ginger 8]

Possible showers forecast, but I don't think the weather will be too bad. If, however, the match had been scheduled for Christchurch it may have been another story, as last time I looked they were knee deep in snow

Isn't one of the tests in Christchurch?

Nice little fact. We too are unbeaten at Eden Park.

Lads Earls will be at 13, he's just wearing 12.
As for Gilroy vs Zebo call. Gilroy isn't even on tour. Yes he has been good but Zebo has been good too. Who has been better well peoples opinions vary but well both deserve chance.

Yeah that or left/right centers Earls will not be at 12.

No offense MM but you're the ony one I see calling for Zebo.

 

[Darwin]

Isn't one of the tests in Christchurch?
Nice little fact. We too are unbeaten at Eden Park.

Yep, the second test is in Christchurch. Hopefully the snow will be gone by then!

 

[big ginger 8]

Yep, the second test is in Christchurch. Hopefully the snow will be gone by then!

Depending on how this goes maybe hopefully not!

 

[munstermuffin]

Isn't one of the tests in Christchurch?

Nice little fact. We too are unbeaten at Eden Park.



Yeah that or left/right centers Earls will not be at 12.

No offense MM but you're the ony one I see calling for Zebo.

Me and Deccie

But not one journalist or anything has called for Gilroy, and dare I ask next will Gilroy's development be effected next season IF he cant get past Bowe and Trimble?
Yes he will get gametime BUT it's evident that you have to be starting in the big games to get in Irish team.
But think people are harsh on Zebo his record this season is decent.
Heineken Cup: 5 appearances - 5 tries
Rabo: 19 appearances - 9 tries

Gilroy played 29 times this season scoring 6 tries - 3 in each Rabo and HEC.

Gilroy's tries per game this season = 1 Try every 4.83333 games
Zebo's tries per game this season = 1 Try every 1.91666666 games

Zebo's record overall - 25 starts & 8 sub appearances = 14 tries Average - Try every 2.36 games
Gilroy's record overall - 40 starts and 3 sub appearances = 14 tries Average - Try every 3.07 games

 

[Feicarsinn]

Me and Deccie

But not one journalist or anything has called for Gilroy, and dare I ask next will Gilroy's development be effected next season IF he cant get past Bowe and Trimble?
Yes he will get gametime BUT it's evident that you have to be starting in the big games to get in Irish team.
But think people are harsh on Zebo his record this season is decent.
Heineken Cup: 5 appearances - 5 tries
Rabo: 19 appearances - 9 tries

Gilroy played 29 times this season scoring 6 tries - 3 in each Rabo and HEC.

Gilroy's tries per game this season = 1 Try every 4.83333 games
Zebo's tries per game this season = 1 Try every 1.91666666 games

Zebo's record overall - 25 starts & 8 sub appearances = 14 tries Average - Try every 2.36 games
Gilroy's record overall - 40 starts and 3 sub appearances = 14 tries Average - Try every 3.07 games

If we were going by try scoring ratios alone Matt Banahan and Tom Varndell should have been Lions. Gilroy is a better defender than Zebo. Zebo is probably a marginally better attacker. However the faults in his game will be given a very stern going over on the weekend.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Gilroy's tries per game this season = 1 Try every 4.83333 games
Zebo's tries per game this season = 1 Try every 1.91666666 games

Zebo's record overall - 25 starts & 8 sub appearances = 14 tries Average - Try every 2.36 games
Gilroy's record overall - 40 starts and 3 sub appearances = 14 tries Average - Try every 3.07 games

Gotta say, I'm loving the number of decimal places you used.

 

[Peat]

Peat everyone in Munster realises ROG should be benching for Munster to allow Keatley to develop. So that and based on form I'd be in favour of Madigan over ROG. Only concern about Madigan in my view is issue of a goal kicker. So yea it should be Madigan over ROG.

On Gilroy I'm not saying he's had a bad season or anything just simply Zebo had a superb season overall and has the better strike rate. Simply put if Gilroy was even on tour and started I'd understand but think Zebo deserves his shot too

Fair enough then. I don't agree with the philosophy, but fair enough if that's what you think.

On the Gilroy Zebo thing - if it were about starting the big games, as you say, then Gilroy would be ahead of him, as he's started more big games. As has Trimble. In fact, I'd argue that Dave Kearney should be there, as at least he's played in big games. And I don't think Zebo can be considered to be assured of a starting spot for big games next season for Munster, not when it would require one of Downey/Laulua/Earls/Howlett/Jones sitting on the bench.

I have no real problem with him being there, as I've no particular skin in this argument, but it seems pretty obvious to me that the main consistent criteria for selection he's filled is Kidney likes him, and that there's plenty of reason for people to feel ****** off/call bias.

edit: And come on! I think everyone knows the Irish rugby press wouldn't dream of criticising Kidney if he actually had a **** in the middle of a press conference.

 

[Darwin]

I usually like to go through and analyse key match-ups in each area, but I going to say it: I think the AB's have an edge in nearly every area. This may be construed as 'typical New Zealand rugby fan arrogance', and perhaps it is This not to say that I don't think Ireland can win, rather that if each team plays to their potential the AB's should win rather comfortably (by say 20-25 points). Of course this statement will come back to bite me if Ireland pull off the upset!

Things I'm particularly looking out for this match:
- The NZ scrum. Obviously Ireland have weakened scrum, but it will be interesting to see if NZ can take advantage without Brad Thorn, who is regarded by many as the best scrummaging lock in the world.
- Brodie Retallick. Been the standout NZ lock in Super Rugby this season, so I'm keen to see how he goes at the next level considering his young age (just turned 21)
- Irish locking pairing of Touhy and Ryan. I'm so used to seeing 4. O'C.... 5. O'C.... I will be interested to see two different locks starting for Ireland for a change!
- Victor Vito at 6. Kaino is a massive loss for the AB's, but Vito has a chance to make this position his. He certainly has the physical attributes to excel in this position, so hopefully he grabs his chance.
- Irish loose-forward trio. Even without Ferris the Ireland loosies are full of big powerful ball runners, who the AB's will have to watch carefully. I expect there will be a lot of running around the the fringes to test out Aaron Smith, who is a bit of a midget (but is a solid defender despite this). Hopefully Heaslip can manage to stay on for 80 mins this time!
- Aaron Smith. Has the potential to bring a whole new dimension to the AB's back play with his passing game. He is easily the best passing halfback I've seen in the AB's since Graeme Bachop almost 20 years ago! Carter will have so much more space to operate with, but I think the real threat for Ireland will be Smith firing out a pin-point past straight past Carter to SBW running at pace in the midfield...
- O'Driscoll/Earls combo. A really interesting midfield pairing - I can see the potential of having Earls running off O'Driscoll, but am unsure how they will cope in defense with SBW (or Savea coming in off his wing).
-SBW. Been in superb form for the Chiefs - he is a much better player than he was even a year ago. He will be a massive threat to the Irish defense with his direct running game, but can still bring out the miracle offload when required.
-Zebo. A lot said about him, so I'm keen to see a how he goes - he will certainly be tested by Guildford, who is in really good form.
-Savea. A real beast on the wing - hopefully he doesn't get overwhelmed by the step-up to international rugby. Probably the most exciting wing we have had since Rokocoko in his prime.
-Ben Smith on the bench. Hopefully he will get 20-30 mins to prove his worth, as I think he has the ability to be a top class test fullback.

 

[bushytop]

Yeah, think Ireland will have a real hard time of it on Saturday, hope I'm wrong thpugh... would be great if Ireland, England and Wales could all come away with the W (wont hold my breath though).

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

I'm looking forward to seeing Cruden get a decent run. Like SBW, Cruden is a substantially better player than he was a year ago, so I hope he gets the chance to show his worth.