Spring Tour: Australia v Wales -2nd Test. (16/06/2012 10:00GMT)

[TRF_Cymro]

Yes I trust you absolutely.

I don't know which level you played, surely it happens mostly at pro level... refs just ignore it!

Sooner or later IRB has to deal with it, stop changing rules at bd or whatever and start making the refs to apply the rules already in the book.

It's funny ref's at lower level pick stuff up more things like this than what their professional counterparts do. But I agree ref's need to apply the law but the assistant referee's need to also help out.

 

[madflyhalf]

If I were in the Wallabies I'd try Hooper at 12.
He has amazing footwork, quite similar to JOC ones, he has vision and good handling, why don't try him outside Beale?!

Well, after all, McCabe experiment starts to pay off, he is now an international 12, maybe not the typical Aussie 12, but he's ****ing solid in attack, he started to pass the ball (sometimes, not often ), and more important he has started to read defence and change his run angles.

Maybe experiment times are over in this position, but I'd like to see for 20' Hooper there.

 

[psychic duck]

If I were in the Wallabies I'd try Hooper at 12.
He has amazing footwork, quite similar to JOC ones, he has vision and good handling, why don't try him outside Beale?!

Well, after all, McCabe experiment starts to pay off, he is now an international 12, maybe not the typical Aussie 12, but he's ****ing solid, he started to pass the ball (sometimes, not often ), and more important he has started to read defence and change his run angles.

Maybe experiment times are over in this position, but I'd like to see for 20' Hooper there.

... he dropped the ball twice in the last few minutes of the match

 

[madflyhalf]

IMO absolutely not his fault.

Maybe just a bit flat in the first, but he's got Higginbotham (? maybe..) close to him (touching) and possibly disturbing; second one it was a shocker throwed by McCabe (ugh!), no need to do that, Hooper was there to secure the possession and he was ready to clean-out the Welsh defender.

 

[dullonien]

I'll probably get banned from the forum if I say what I truly want to say so I'll have to make do with this:
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But before I go, will people please stop blaming Priestland for everything! He wasn't perfect today but for God's sake he has been far better than he has been recently. kicked a few times when it wasn't on but was near-on perfect defensively, good support play and passing game. It was the right decision to kick at the end because it pinned them back and made the chances of giving away a penalty far lower, especially seeing as everyone seemed to be passing it back to him anyway. If you want to find someone to blame, why not Warburton for giving away the penalty with a minuet to go, North (I think) for pulling down the maul, Phillips for kicking out on the full that led to the Aussie try.......
And anyway, the chances of Hawley and Gatland dropping him are low imo anyway. Remember when some (myself included) where calling for Phillips head, he wasn't dropped, because what he brings to the game are exactly what the coaching staff want and what Wales need. And I see he is the best option. I believe it's the same case with Priestland. He has started to recover form and he will hopefully only get better. Hook, you never know who you'll get (plus he's not very good defensively, Edwards won't like that).

Sorry, but I don't agree. It's all well and good blaming players for single instances like Warburton giving away a penalty and someone collapsing the maul, but Wales were barely in that game because of some very poor kicking from Priestland. Only his inital kick-off and penalty kick to touch in the first few minutes were of any decent quality, the rest were abysmal up and unders that were a good 10-20m too long. The ball either needs to be contestable, or it needs to be kicked into touch and reach the stands at that to prevent quick throws. It doesn't really matter how good the rest of his game was, the simple truth is that his kicking today gave us no territory to even think about using our backline, that backline who should be ripping teams to shreds.

It's just infuriating to see players like Beck, Jon Davies, North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny get absolutely no opportunities to attack the Aussie defensive line in the Aussie 22. With Pocock on top at the breakdown trying to run from our own half was a death wish.

Edit. Just like to add that I've always been a fan of Priestland. Along with Olyy, I was one of the first to really sing his praises. He delivered in the WC, and he had his moments in the 6 nations (Davies' first try in Dublin for example), but since then he's been dire. His strengths are how he brings the players around him into the game, but he can't do that if he first can't secure field position for the team.

Of course there were other failings today, some of which Wales couldn't really do anything about (the inconsistent reffing of the breakdown), but I still feel the kicking game was by far the biggest issue today, along with the lineout in the first half, both of which just gave Aus free ball. Our defence was great (other than for Aus' try), but if that hadn't have been the case we could have been on the end of a real hiding.

 

[Ostrayian]

It's just infuriating to see players like Beck, Jon Davies, North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny get absolutely no opportunities to attack the Aussie defensive line in the Aussie 22. .

If Vuna gets picked again can you please do us a favour and score a heap of tries on Vuna's wing. He is a turnstyle and you'd be doing us a favour with this so he can be dropped before the bledisloe.

 

[dullonien]

Quick team rating:

01 Gethin Jenkins - 6 - Scrummaged well when he was allowed to do so. Struggled to get his hands to the ball ruck time due to Aus sealing off the ball.
02 Matthew Rees - 4 - Started well in the loose, but the lineout was a complete mess.
03 Adam Jones - 7 - Strong scrummaging, pity it wasn't more in the Aus half. Prominent in defence around the fringes.
04 Bradley Davies - 7 - Good display from him. Carried the ball well and made a nuisance of himself in the tight.
05 Alun Wyn Jones - 8 - Really put himself about I thought. Managed to disrupt a lot of Aus ball.
06 Dan Lydiate - 7 - A few trademark tackles, and lots of work again.
07 Sam Warburton - 5.5 - Costly penalty, and was blown away at the breakdown by Pocock. Still doesn't look match fit.
08 Ryan Jones - 7 - Worked hard and was unfortunate not to win a few turnovers. Still more of a blindside flanker than an 8.

09 Mike Phillips - 5 - An improvement on last week, but his kicking was still poor, and he made another couple of costly errors.
10 Rhys Priestland - 4 - Another decent defensive performance, but dire kicking really cost us the match.
11 George North - 8 - Scored a try and did all he cold otherwise. Barely saw the ball in attack.
12 Ashley Beck - 6 - At fault for Aus try, but otherwise defended well. No chance to show us what he's good at in attack.
13 Jon Davies - 7 - Great control of the ball for his try. Put pressure on Aus defensively, but still a few errors in his game.
14 Alex Cuthbert - 7 - Did all he could really.
15 Lee Halfpenny - 9 - Great display from the fullback. Basically kept Wales in the game with his awesome place kicking. Secure under the high ball and ran strongly.

 

[Me 1]

Sorry, but I don't agree. It's all well and good blaming players for single instances like Warburton giving away a penalty and someone collapsing the maul, but Wales were barely in that game because of some very poor kicking from Priestland. Only his inital kick-off and penalty kick to touch in the first few minutes were of any decent quality, the rest were abysmal up and unders that were a good 10-20m too long. The ball either needs to be contestable, or it needs to be kicked into touch and reach the stands at that to prevent quick throws. It doesn't really matter how good the rest of his game was, the simple truth is that his kicking today gave us no territory to even think about using our backline, that backline who should be ripping teams to shreds.

It's just infuriating to see players like Beck, Jon Davies, North, Cuthbert and Halfpenny get absolutely no opportunities to attack the Aussie defensive line in the Aussie 22. With Pocock on top at the breakdown trying to run from our own half was a death wish.

Edit. Just like to add that I've always been a fan of Priestland. Along with Olyy, I was one of the first to really sing his praises. He delivered in the WC, and he had his moments in the 6 nations (Davies' first try in Dublin for example), but since then he's been dire. His strengths are how he brings the players around him into the game, but he can't do that if he first can't secure field position for the team.

Of course there were other failings today, some of which Wales couldn't really do anything about (the inconsistent reffing of the breakdown), but I still feel the kicking game was by far the biggest issue today, along with the lineout in the first half, both of which just gave Aus free ball. Our defence was great (other than for Aus' try), but if that hadn't have been the case we could have been on the end of a real hiding.

Yeah, I'm not saying I do blame those players for the loss, just saying it was in the those sort of areas where the game was lost in reality. Dodgy lineout and not-very-good tactical kicking didn't help, just saying the little errors are what was truly letting us down.

 

[dullonien]

Yeah, I'm not saying I do blame those players for the loss, just saying it was in the those sort of areas where the game was lost in reality. Dodgy lineout and not-very-good tactical kicking didn't help, just saying the little errors are what was truly letting us down.

Well, yes we could have won the game despite the poor kicking and bad lineout if a couple of those errors hadn't have happened, but it wouldn't have been a very deserved victory imo. Other than the first try, I can barely remember another attacking opportunity in Australia's 22 (did we even have one?). Davies' try was an opportunistic pounce on an Aussie mistake. Australia had 64% possession and 66% territory, we can't realistically expect to win test matches with those kinds of stats! Priestland, Phillips and Rees were the worst offenders as to why we spent all our time defending in our own half. Pocock's dominance of the breakdown and the ref's inconsistencies also added to this, as did some of the errors made.

If we fail to get roughly an even amount of territory and possession next week, a close match that we'll probably end up losing is the best we can hope for again. Without a good kicking game we won't get territory, and without a functioning lineout we won't get possession.

Team for next week:

Gethin Jenkins, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Ian Evans, Alun Wyn Jones, Dan Lydiate, Justin Tipuric, Sam Warburton, Rhys Webb, James Hook, George North, Ashley Beck, Jon Davies, Alex Cuthbert, Lee Halfpenny; Ken Owens, Paul James, Bradley Davies, Ryan Jones, Mike Phillips, Rhys Priestland, Scott Williams.

A chance to test a few players like Hibbard, Tips and Webb, and see if the experiment of playing Tipuric and Warburton can work / negate Pocock. Hook can have a chance to see if playing a full season at 10 at club level has improved his game management. Rees is now certainly behind both Hibbard and Owens imo. At least Owens' lineout throwing was on target, the rest of his game which is usually very good should improve with experience.

Gameplan should be to kick for the corners, into touch, and assert some of our forward power. Then unleash a potent backline in the right areas of the pitch. If we go down again then so be it, a win would be nice, but ultimately the series is over already.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Well, yes we could have won the game despite the poor kicking and bad lineout if a couple of those errors hadn't have happened, but it wouldn't have been a very deserved victory imo. Other than the first try, I can barely remember another attacking opportunity in Australia's 22 (did we even have one?). Davies' try was an opportunistic pounce on an Aussie mistake. Australia had 64% possession and 66% territory, we can't realistically expect to win test matches with those kinds of stats! Priestland, Phillips and Rees were the worst offenders as to why we spent all our time defending in our own half. Pocock's dominance of the breakdown and the ref's inconsistencies also added to this, as did some of the errors made.

If we fail to get roughly an even amount of territory and possession next week, a close match that we'll probably end up losing is the best we can hope for again. Without a good kicking game we won't get territory, and without a functioning lineout we won't get possession.

Team for next week:

Gethin Jenkins, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Ian Evans, Alun Wyn Jones, Dan Lydiate, Justin Tipuric, Sam Warburton, Rhys Webb, James Hook, George North, Ashley Beck, Jon Davies, Alex Cuthbert, Lee Halfpenny; Ken Owens, Paul James, Bradley Davies, Ryan Jones, Mike Phillips, Rhys Priestland, Scott Williams.

A chance to test a few players like Hibbard, Tips and Webb, and see if the experiment of playing Tipuric and Warburton can work / negate Pocock. Hook can have a chance to see if playing a full season at 10 at club level has improved his game management. Rees is now certainly behind both Hibbard and Owens imo. At least Owens' lineout throwing was on target, the rest of his game which is usually very good should improve with experience.

Gameplan should be to kick for the corners, into touch, and assert some of our forward power. Then unleash a potent backline in the right areas of the pitch. If we go down again then so be it, a win would be nice, but ultimately the series is over already.

I agree with experimenting with the team a bit, the tour is lost so mayaswell tbh. The ref I found hilarious at times, especially the whole ping Wales for not rolling away then telling Pocock to stop not letting players roll away, along with the maul at the end for both the joining from the side by Aus (as cymro pointed out) and the fact it appeared to me Pocock wasnt properly bound to the maul until the end.

Either way Wales also played fairly poorly for the most part.

 

[Me 1]

After watching the game a second time I still can't blame Priestland for that loss. He has been made a scapegoat ever since he hit the post against Ireland and people seem to ignore everything he does well and just highlight everything else as a reason to lynch him. He played relatively well today, with mistakes, it wasn't perfect, I'll admit that. But for God's sake he was not the wost part of our game today. He did a horrible kick out on the full (which was very bad, yes) plus about 1, maybe 2 too long kicks. People are blaming him for trying to run instead of kicking to touch, but if the lineout isn't functioning right what's he supposed to do! Criticising people for not kicking the ball deep enough into touch is, for want of a better word, quite pathetic really. People complain if it is kicked to deep into touch because it could've gone further, people complain when it doesn't go out because they failed to find touch, and now people complain that it's too close? It has to be one of those surely? His defence was good today, one of our best backs at defence (and stopped Genia sniping once or twice). His support play was excellent, which was showed with Philips' break (which was instigated by Priestland btw) He did some fine weighted kicks (not all of them were as there were some pretty bad ones), cross kick to Cuthbert early on was a good example of this. I didn't see anything wrong with his passing game. He did some good side steps, although he could potentially have done a little more of them, plus I would have liked to have see him vary his attack a little more, like a chip or something. And when Priestland kicked down field about a minuet at the end it was, as I've said earlier, the right decision. For a start, Priestland wasn't calling for the ball, he was calling for it to remain tight. Webb was the one who chose to pass to Priestland. He couldn't take it into contact because it was about 3 against 7 and he would have been turned over, or worse, penalised. It was the safe option to pin the opposition back (it's not like he gave away the penalty afterwards). Plus, I think the main reason he kicked too deep when he did was because Jamie Robert normally chases them, as he's not playing now it's going to be hard to adapt seeing as our back play is based around him. This is more of a coaching problem. However, this could be improved by him but we've got to adapt our game plan to be able to combat this.

I apologise if this post comes across as a little hostile but I'm just so frustrated at so many people (not just on this forum) blaming everything on Priestland during this match. Yes he was a factor but there was so much more to it than that.

Edit: I'm not sure if this is true, but I've heard Matthew Rees was playing with a dislocated finger which may help to explain his awkward line-out throwing.

Re. Hook- It might be an idea to play him next week, I wouldn't as I think Priestland's getting better each match, getting back to form. Hook will bring something different but I don't think he suits our current game plan, although maybe we need a change. Plus I'm terrified whenever he throws a pass of an intercept

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Sorry but I cannot agree with you. Preistland was at fault for failing to run and control the game for Wales today. You sight Jaime Roberts in your argument but Preistland has got to realise that he is not beside him but Ashley Beck, who is a different player and a player who needs ball in hand with time to create stuff. There was other factors but Preistland inability to control the game and his aimless kicking has cost Wales one to many points / games.

As for Rees he dislocated his finger during the Barbarians game, he was terrible not been the same player since his injury.

 

[Me 1]

Sorry but I cannot agree with you. Preistland was at fault for failing to run and control the game for Wales today. There was other factors but Preistland inability to control the game and his aimless kicking has cost Wales one to many times.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The game management wasn't awful today, plus I don't think Hook would be any better.

Edit:

Sorry but I cannot agree with you. Preistland was at fault for failing to run and control the game for Wales today. You sight Jaime Roberts in your argument but Preistland has got to realise that he is not beside him but Ashley Beck, who is a different player and a player who needs ball in hand with time to create stuff. There was other factors but Preistland inability to control the game and his aimless kicking has cost Wales one to many points / games.

Yes I said that and I accepted there was fault with him for that. But I also said that I think it is more of the gameplan he has from Howley is to do that. Howley talks a lot about the kicking game in a high favour and I think it's more of what they are told to do. Which brought me to adapting the gameplan. Are the players just too afraid to change or are they just inable. I think it's more of the first.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. The game management wasn't awful today, plus I don't think Hook would be any better.

Of course game management was awful ... his decision to kick poorly and failing to get our backs into the game along with Phillips was partly the reason why we lost.

For the kick at the end, maybe there were no options. But it didn't seem that he was telling Webb not to pass him the ball. A fly half should be bellowing his scrum half not to pass him the ball yet. I've seen the likes of Sexton, Wilkinson, Carter etc scream at their scrum half's not to give them the ball until the buzzer has gone / 80 is up. It seem's that people are making excuses for Preistland but I don't think he's been great since the Ireland game and same during the WC, he had his moments of brilliance there.

No point deflecting blame from Preistland, with what we have seen from him might as well let Hook have a go, no harm in doing so.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Edit: I'm not sure if this is true, but I've heard Matthew Rees was playing with a dislocated finger which may help to explain his awkward line-out throwing.

That was the other week wasn't it? Either Barbarians or 1st test, can't remember which...
Though he could easily have popped it back out today or in training.

 

[dullonien]

Reading a few comment on Walesonline (this is not advised for health reasons), Priestland is being blamed quite heavily for kicking the ball away in the dying minutes. I don't agree with that, because as you have said Me 1, he was under pressure, outnumbered, with the ball being passed backwards, he really had no option but to kick. This isn't the same situation as Cooper kicking the ball in the dying minutes last time we toured Aus (2008?), which was planned. The ball needed to be kept tight, but as you say the decision was to pass it out (maybe to get the ball away from Pocock?).

I'll have to watch the game again, but I was getting very upset with Priestland's general level of kicking throughout the entire game, bar a few kicks, some of which you've pointed out.

I feel that kicking the ball into the stand is a valid point to make. Aus are best running the ball, the amount of players they get back to counter attack with shows this. To counter that, you simply have to stop the possibility of quick throws if you're kicking to touch. So against Aus, you sacrifice a little distance to make sure it's safe. Against less attacking teams, Wales' tactic of kicking long, keeping the ball on the field, relying on your defence and ultimately fitness levels is a valid tactic. The three main teams where you need to change this are against Aus, NZ and France, because they'll simply kill you on the counter as Wales have found out the hard-way on many occasions.

Ultimately, I think this topic is something we'll have to agree to disagree on. But for me Priestland has only had the odd half of decent rugby since that Ireland game.

 

[Me 1]

Reading a few comment on Walesonline (this is not advised for health reasons), Priestland is being blamed quite heavily for kicking the ball away in the dying minutes. I don't agree with that, because as you have said Me 1, he was under pressure, outnumbered, with the ball being passed backwards, he really had no option but to kick. This isn't the same situation as Cooper kicking the ball in the dying minutes last time we toured Aus (2008?), which was planned. The ball needed to be kept tight, but as you say the decision was to pass it out (maybe to get the ball away from Pocock?).

I'll have to watch the game again, but I was getting very upset with Priestland's general level of kicking throughout the entire game, bar a few kicks, some of which you've pointed out.

I feel that kicking the ball into the stand is a valid point to make. Aus are best running the ball, the amount of players they get back to counter attack with shows this. To counter that, you simply have to stop the possibility of quick throws if you're kicking to touch. So against Aus, you sacrifice a little distance to make sure it's safe. Against less attacking teams, Wales' tactic of kicking long, keeping the ball on the field, relying on your defence and ultimately fitness levels is a valid tactic. The three main teams where you need to change this are against Aus, NZ and France, because they'll simply kill you on the counter as Wales have found out the hard-way on many occasions.

Ultimately, I think this topic is something we'll have to agree to disagree on. But for me Priestland has only had the odd half of decent rugby since that Ireland game.

As I've also said though, the lineout wasn't functioning well that match, if we'd lost distance to make it safe, we could easily have lost the lineout and been in a terrible position.

And just to clear things up, I don't think he can do no wrong. He was bad against England in the six nations and from what I gather from the last Aus game (which I wasn't really paying attention too) he wasn't that good there either. He isn't on top form which is why I would persist with him so he can regain that and his confidence, but we could always try something different with Hook next week. As Cymro says, no harm in it.

 

[dullonien]

As I've also said though, the lineout wasn't functioning well that match, if we'd lost distance to make it safe, we could easily have lost the lineout and been in a terrible position.

Well, it'd be Australia's throw-in which would mean they'd probably win it back. But the point is to slow the game down a little, make it a little more structured, allow time for our defence to align and take away one of Australia's big strengths. If we could disrupt the lineout, then that would be an extra bonus, at least it gives us the chance of doing so though. With a quick throw-in, teams make up the 10-15m distance you've gained by not kicking it into the stands, but you're also putting yourself under pressure defensively. Like I said, good tactic against most other nations, just not Aus, NZ or France.

 

[Me 1]

Well, it'd be Australia's throw-in which would mean they'd probably win it back. But the point is to slow the game down a little, make it a little more structured, allow time for our defence to align and take away one of Australia's big strengths. If we could disrupt the lineout, then that would be an extra bonus, at least it gives us the chance of doing so though. With a quick throw-in, teams make up the 10-15m distance you've gained by not kicking it into the stands, but you're also putting yourself under pressure defensively. Like I said, good tactic against most other nations, just not Aus, NZ or France.

lol, my mistake

 

[Saintjay]

Just been reading some pretty nasty comments about Howley on another site from welsh fans which has surprised me a little. One idea did make me think that Howley should have taken Warbs off and used Tipuric who has been in better form. It was a mad decision to leave him on the bench. To be honest I can't remember him coming on so I assume that is the case.