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SOB lays into Gats

Old Hooker said:
To what purpose exactly? Sure it's interesting and keeps us in gossip, but why do we "deserve" it?

A "fan" in the professional game is nothing more than a paying customer, whether at a turnstile or to a TV company. What organisation keeps its customers up to date with what's going on behind the scenes unless it has to, especially relating to the performance of specific individuals? Different matter if you're a shareholder who has invested in it.

As customers, if we don't like the product we vote with our feet and wallets; of course any organisation wants to keep its customers happy and many actively engage with them within certain parameters. But there's a big difference in being of interest to the public and transparent governance.
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Because as a 'punter' I deserve to know if I'm getting a high quality product or not. This is no different to being sold something by a dodgy salesman and an ex-employee telling you if it wasn't for poor management you could of got something a lot better for the price you paid.
 
Whilst I'm not the biggest fan of some of the Lions' coaches, it can't be easy trying to mould 30+ professionals from 4 different countries and numerous different clubs into a collective unit to take on the dominant nation of the last decade; especially when you only have a few weeks and a handful of warm up matches to do it.

With that time frame, it is inevitable that coaches will implement simple, basic structures that everyone can adapt to quickly.

The Lions is a great concept, and one that should be maintained, but when you think of how many years it took Graham Henry to build the foundations of this All blacks team, or Clive Woodward to build his World Cup winning England team, I think O'Brien is being unrealistic in his expectations of Gatland and his coaches.
 
that'll teach gatland for sticking his neck out. the most successful lions coach in history and still he's attacked.
SOB is a crybaby . gatland wasnt on the field when they lost. SOB was

good luck to the next lions coach
 
mania said:
that'll teach gatland for sticking his neck out. the most successful lions coach in history and still he's attacked.
SOB is a crybaby . gatland wasnt on the field when they lost. SOB was

good luck to the next lions coach
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Gatland was outstanding at inside centre in the second test however... Fair observation
 
mania said:
that'll teach gatland for sticking his neck out. the most successful lions coach in history and still he's attacked.
SOB is a crybaby . gatland wasnt on the field when they lost. SOB was

good luck to the next lions coach
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I've read statement this in a number of places, but have never seen it explained. What makes this claim valid? I can't think of a single (positive) stat in which he tops McGeechan or Millar or a subjective area in which James wouldn't outshine him.
 
Okay trying to get some perspective here. SOB won't tour again and so should his opinion, in theory, really bother Gatland that much were he to be head coach again? Also, the NZ press negativity is totally irrelevant for the next tour to SA. There are theories circulating that the timing of this release is to boost Gatland's book sales (soon to be available at a store near you) but it does look like he has resigned himself to the fact that he lost quite a good chunk of the dressing room. Discuss.
 
RedruthRFC said:
I've read statement this in a number of places, but have never seen it explained. What makes this claim valid? I can't think of a single (positive) stat in which he tops McGeechan or Millar or a subjective area in which James wouldn't outshine him.
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if skew it a little and squint your eyes you could say that gatland has never lost a tour
 
RedruthRFC said:
I've read statement this in a number of places, but have never seen it explained. What makes this claim valid? I can't think of a single (positive) stat in which he tops McGeechan or Millar or a subjective area in which James wouldn't outshine him.
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I don't blame gatland. He never had a hope in hell with hardest ever itinerary. No one expected him to win anything. He took on the challenge anyway and when he came away with a draw lots whiners complained he should've done better. Who would want that poison chalice?
 
I always maintained the Lions had a capability under decent management and a little luck the Lions could win the series 2-1.

On evidence of the tour from the 2nd and 3rd tests I still maintain that was perfectly reasonable assumption to make.

Regardless of what was said before the tour the Lions should of beaten 14 men comfortably. With a more cohsive attacking plan there we may not have drawn the third test.

People are compalining that Gatland actually exceeded pre tour expectation to me that might be true but he didn't achive what could of been achived.
 
mania said:
that'll teach gatland for sticking his neck out. the most successful lions coach in history and still he's attacked.
SOB is a crybaby . gatland wasnt on the field when they lost. SOB was

good luck to the next lions coach
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Tell me what SO'B has to be a crybaby about, please and thank you. I think you've already shown you don't know much about Gatland's coaching, so I'm struggling to see your investment in this. Is it that you're trying to make excuses for how poor the All Blacks were across the three tests, which is why the series was there for the taking, or do you not like seeing your countryman get slated by fans who have been familiar with his coaching style for the best part of 20 years in Ireland and Wales?
What do our two successful series in Australia and New Zealand have in common? We played against sides way below their best, who would have absolutely battered the same Lions side in years gone by.
You say Gatland wasn't on the pitch, well he also didn't have anything to do with Barrett's awful kicking, Sonny Bill's recklessness and other sub par uncharacteristic behavior that kept us in contention.
 
Groundhog said:
You say Gatland wasn't on the pitch, well he also didn't have anything to do with Barrett's awful kicking, Sonny Bill's recklessness and other sub par uncharacteristic behavior that kept us in contention.
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And this is the whole point. The coaches, especially in such a short time, can only pick the team and introduce a fairly basic framework.

It's nil-nil when the match kicks off. After that, it's all down to the players. No coach that I'm aware of has butchered an overlap, missed a tackle, dropped a pass or got themselves carded. These aren't kids on the Lions tours, they're seasoned internationals, the best these shores can muster with multiple caps. Blaming the coach is easy, but they should largely be able to figure it out for themselves. I'll bet that one of the differences between the ABs and the NH coaching over the years is that they have empowered the players to take responsibility whereas ours are more used to being told what to do.

Interesting interview with Brian Ashton on similar themes in today's Torygraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...ve-scratched-surface-possible-rugby-coaching/
 
Old Hooker said:
And this is the whole point. The coaches, especially in such a short time, can only pick the team and introduce a fairly basic framework.

It's nil-nil when the match kicks off. After that, it's all down to the players. No coach that I'm aware of has butchered an overlap, missed a tackle, dropped a pass or got themselves carded. These aren't kids on the Lions tours, they're seasoned internationals, the best these shores can muster with multiple caps. Blaming the coach is easy, but they should largely be able to figure it out for themselves. I'll bet that one of the differences between the ABs and the NH coaching over the years is that they have empowered the players to take responsibility whereas ours are more used to being told what to do.

Interesting interview with Brian Ashton on similar themes in today's Torygraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-un...ve-scratched-surface-possible-rugby-coaching/
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What about the first test when he quite obviously picked the wrong team? Or training which is SOB's main point of criticism? SOB never once said that the players on the pitch couldn't win but he makes it obvious that the coaching staff didn't equip them to as best they could. SOB coming from working with Schmidt noticed Gatland was nowhere near as meticulous as him, I'd guess that Mako V told Billy as much in comparison to Jones. This is top class professional rugby, the players should be able to do it on the pitch but they should have a coaching team that makes that as easy as possible for them to do. Picking the worst possible centre pairing, undermining yourself by not picking your captain, under training and over training in weeks before test matches and letting your 10 and 12 be backs coaches because you picked a completely incompetent one isn't doing that.
 
Groundhog said:
Is it that you're trying to make excuses for how poor the All Blacks were across the three tests, which is why the series was there for the taking, or do you not like seeing your countryman get slated by fans who have been familiar with his coaching style for the best part of 20 years in Ireland and Wales?
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yes agree the ABs were made to look poor by what turned out to be a coherent Lions team. ABs were not allowed to play their game by a team with a plan.
i was disgusted with the way that kiwis and NZ media attacked gatland, just as i'm disgusted by your attacks .
gatland and the Lions exceeded expectations. SOB has little respect for the ABs if he thinks that they shouildve beaten them 3 nil .
gatland wasnt on the field. SOB was
 
mania said:
SOB has little respect for the ABs if he thinks that they shouildve beaten them 3 nil .
gatland wasnt on the field. SOB was
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Sounds like we should listen to SOBs opinions on the games, then, seeing as he was there and playing.
 
TRF_Olyy said:
Sounds like we should listen to SOBs opinions on the games, then, seeing as he was there and playing.
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sorry my bad.
i'm sure for you its a piece of cake to bring together 4 nations who hate each other and then tour NZ and beat ABs 3 nil on their home soil where they hadnt lost a game in over 5 years.

i think you should direct your advice to billyVunipola
 
mania said:
sorry my bad.
i'm sure for you its a piece of cake to bring together 4 nations who hate each other and then tour NZ and beat ABs 3 nil on their home soil where they hadnt lost a game in over 5 years.

i think you should direct your advice to billyVunipola
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Certainly easier to win 3-0 when the coach doesn't decide to pick the squads most limited player at 12, second best 10 with a backrow that proved to have little balance to hand the first test to NZ...
 
I'm genuinely amazed anyone in NZ has even an average opinion of Gatland.
They should be collectively ******** themselves at the prospect of him even being shortlisted for the ABs roles.

The NH have far far more knowledge and experience of his coaching than the SH, we know what he's about.
 

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