[Six Nations 2018] Round 2: England vs Wales (10/02/2018)

[MarkyH]

Just read this on the Guards comments...

You never actually beat Wales, you just score more points then them

The England Wales games bring the worst out of me, and all Eng/Wales fans I'm sure

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

For me Robshaw doesn't have a place in this team. The only justification people seem to have for him is that he's a workhorse. The thing about being a workhorse is that you can actually see whether it's true or not in the stats by how many tackles they've made, and looking at the stats he tends to actually be pretty average, repeatedly outdone by the likes of Itoje, Lawes, Launch, Underhill, Simmonds and even Mako who tends to only play around 50 minutes. Considering all of those other options offer more in attack, the lineout or in Underhills's case is much more physical in defence, I just don't see how his place can be justified. His time has come IMO. Underhill and Simmonds are both better flankers.

 

[Maverick1987]

For me Robshaw doesn't have a place in this team. The only justification people seem to have for him is that he's a workhorse. The thing about being a workhorse is that you can actually see whether it's true or not in the stats by how many tackles they've made, and looking at the stats he tends to actually be pretty average, repeatedly outdone by the likes of Itoje, Lawes, Launch, Underhill, Simmonds and even Mako who tends to only play around 50 minutes. Considering all of those other options offer more in attack, the lineout or in Underhills's case is much more physical in defence, I just don't see how his place can be justified. His time has come IMO. Underhill and Simmonds are both better flankers.

I honestly thought Robshaw was excellent today . In my opinion it's more important to knock this lock in the back row experiment on the head and go back to Robshaw at 6 and Underhill at 7 . It was the most natural looking back row we have had for ages !

 

[Reiser99]

Just got back from the game, it was a cracking (albeit wet and windy) game. From the shots we got of the Wales decision, it was a try personally. Video I've seen after makes it less conclusive, but it's done. Seen some comments about Wales leaving points on the field, but I think both teams did. Overall it was a scrappy game with both sides making mistakes. I know it sounds simple, but today England got more points from their opportunities than Wales. Neither side was completely dominant and it came down to whoever was the most clinical.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

That was dreary. Similar to Paris last week but Wales couldn't score and they forgot they had to start the game!

 

[Which Tyler]

It's the 6N. It matters. It is not the time to experiment with no caps in an entire unit of the pitch. That's what SIs and AIs are for, by which time, the unit is established by the next 6N.

MVuniploa
Hartley
Williams
Lawes
Launchbury
Robshaw
Simmonds (Underhill if injured)
Hughes (if he comes through tomorrow and next weekend unscathed)

Care
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

George, Marler, Cole/Sinckler, Itoje, Underhill/Mercer
Vellacott, Te'o, Brown

In July, we can try Underhill and Simmonds together on the flanks, and start introducing Mercer off the bench without needing injuries to get there.

 

[McTallshort]

For me Robshaw doesn't have a place in this team. The only justification people seem to have for him is that he's a workhorse. The thing about being a workhorse is that you can actually see whether it's true or not in the stats by how many tackles they've made, and looking at the stats he tends to actually be pretty average, repeatedly outdone by the likes of Itoje, Lawes, Launch, Underhill, Simmonds and even Mako who tends to only play around 50 minutes. Considering all of those other options offer more in attack, the lineout or in Underhills's case is much more physical in defence, I just don't see how his place can be justified. His time has come IMO. Underhill and Simmonds are both better flankers.

What game were you watching?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It's the 6N. It matters. It is not the time to experiment with no caps in an entire unit of the pitch. That's what SIs and AIs are for, by which time, the unit is established by the next 6N.

MVuniploa
Hartley
Williams
Lawes
Launchbury
Robshaw
Simmonds (Underhill if injured)
Hughes (if he comes through tomorrow and next weekend unscathed)

Care
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

George, Marler, Cole/Sinckler, Itoje, Underhill/Mercer
Vellacott, Te'o, Brown

In July, we can try Underhill and Simmonds together on the flanks, and start introducing Mercer off the bench without needing injuries to get there.

For me it's irrelevant that a player has few caps if they're comfortable at international level. Underhill has fully settled in and Hughes started all but 2 of England's games last year. The only one of Underhill, Simmonds and Hughes that hasn't fully settled in is Simmonds. I can live with 1/3.

 

[Which Tyler]

For me it's irrelevant that a player has few caps if they're comfortable at international level. Underhill has fully settled in and Hughes started all but 2 of England's games last year. The only one of Underhill, Simmonds and Hughes that hasn't fully settled in is Simmonds. I can live with 1/3.

Of course, we also disagree significantly on Robshaw's value to the team.

If I agree that he has no place there, then I'd be happier to risk not having him there. But the assertion is... really odd

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Of course, we also disagree significantly on Robshaw's value to the team.

If I agree that he has no place there, then I'd be happier to risk not having him there. But the assertion is... really odd

What's his value to the team then? Not being confrontational, genuinely curious as to what it is that I'm missing.

 

[Which Tyler]

Workrate, experience, leadership, instinct, reading of the game, cleaning up bad ball, linking carrying.
Basically, he's ahead of Underhill in everything except tackling.

It's like trying to compare Richard Hill to Joe Worsley - except that both are 15% worse than the 2004 versions.
Underhill can improve from here, but he isn't there yet.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Workrate, experience, leadership, instinct, reading of the game, cleaning up bad ball, linking carrying.
Basically, he's ahead of Underhill in everything except tackling.

It's like trying to compare Richard Hill to Joe Worsley - except that both are 15% worse than the 2004 versions.
Underhill can improve from here, but he isn't there yet.

All valid points but we've already got Hartley and Cole in the pack that fall into the kind-of-dead-weight-but-offer-experience/instinct/leadership-etc mould. For me, 3/8 players in the pack is too many for that. Seeing as Hartley's captain and there's no one really sticking their hand up to replace Cole, personally I'd choose Robshaw to replace but I can see why you'd disagree.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yeah, but you're still pretty much on your own in thinking that Robshaw is a deadweight - which is where we disagree.
I certainly it wouldn't look to solve an issue of a deadweight, by replacing them with someone who's more of a deadweight (AKA, worse in all aspects other than tackling).

Oh, and I don't have Cole as a deadweight in my pack as he's on the bench; and Hartley is currently playing pretty well, whilst George has some issues with his prime requisite (lineout throwing). Granted, he's better there than LCD, but still, I'd be leary about trusting him to start without that. So really, I've no deadweight in my pack who are just there for their experience
Like the Underhill, Simmonds flank partnership, I'd be giving George starts in July when there's far less at stake.

 

[Nubiwan]

Well - first 20 minutes was ok, but the game deteriorated into much ado about nowt. I reckon the try that might have been for Wales is being amply discussed. Let's face it, there was hardly much else.

Having watched most of the 6n games so far, for the first time live in some years, I can see why The RugbyChampionship and super rugby are much more of a pull for many people. So little enterprise in these games.

 

[Nubiwan]

That was dreary. Similar to Paris last week but Wales couldn't score and they forgot they had to start the game!

For what I anticipated, Wales England, Ireland France and Wales Scotland were major footballing disappointments. Honestly found myself wanting today's game to just end.

 

[Nubiwan]

Thats the point mate, we dominated more of the game than Wales and had little to no points to show for it.

Totally agreed on 6. Underhill/Robshaw should be at 6. A Curry at 7 maybe? Or Simmonds if Hughes goes 8. We were poor at the breakdown, and an extra lock doesn't matter. We gave to many penalties away

We still won. They won't be partying on the streets of Total Network Solutions tonight (old joke, still funny)

Both teams devoid of a ball winner in the loose. I was frankly amazed. The physical contest was average at best, but thought England looked much better with pressure in defence. Not convincing for either side. Hard to pick any side worthy of winning this tournament based on the important matches to date.

 

[Hound]

When it comes to Twickenham, when one of those teams is wearing white, the rub of the green becomes very apparent...

 

[Nubiwan]

Well, if I am being honest, the standout player in that mess today was likely the often maligned (well, maligned by anyone who watched the recent lions tour), England fullback. Some pretty average kicking by Wales made his day easy at times, but the times he was called upon under pressure, brown came down with the ball, all but once, and secured possession. The fact he had the MOTM performance in a game of this magnitude, says quite a bit about the overall level of performance. I'm sure it was gritty and difficult in there, but you are not drawing new fans to the game with that as your showpiece.

 

[Nubiwan]

When it comes to Twickenham, when one of those teams is wearing white, the rub of the green becomes very apparent...

Southern Hemisphere TMO called the non try. Is he waiting on his brown envelope outside twickers.

 

[Hound]

Southern Hemisphere TMO called the non try. Is he waiting on his brown envelope outside twickers.

Some of the kiwi-called matches I've seen I wouldn't be surprised... but it goes beyond just the blatantly wrong TMO decision.