Should Robshaw Captain England?

[TRF_Olyy]

Meh, it was average. Did the job, just about, without being outstanding.

No backrow containing both Corry and Moody could be described as anything other than that

 

[McTallshort]

lol! I would disagree but then I am slightly bias.........

 

[Darwin]

I have to agree entirely with Nickdnz and Ranger. While a 'good flanker' could play both blindside and openside, few players can play both positions at a high level. There is the odd exception - someone like Richard Hill looked great in either position - but in general at international the best 7's are undoubtedly specialist openside flankers, while the best 6's are normally specialist blindside flankers (I'm not including France in this as they don't play openside/blindside, but rather left/right flankers). I consider openside by far the most specialist position in the loose-forwards. Perhaps this is a unique New Zealand perspective, but we generally have specialist 7's, with 6 and 8 the far more interchangeable positions (though there are of course specialist 6's and 8's). During last years Super Rugby season I can only remember two players who played at 7 for any of the NZ Super Rugby franchises that weren't specialist 7's: Thomson played there once for the Highlanders and Messem played there once for the Chiefs. There is the odd occasion where a big openside can be converted into a blindside flanker (usually when they get older/slower), but I can't remember many (if any?) occasions when a blindside flanker has been successfully converted into an openside flanker.

 

[nickdnz]

Yeah that world cup win in 2007 was a real low....Look this is a forum people are allowed to voice their opinion mine differs from yours but that doesnt make it wrong. As for part of the reason England have not beaten NZ, Wales and Ireland have had a specialist openside for 8 years and have not beaten you either. France dont have one but have.

Well in fairness the loose forwards during the RWC were hardly brilliant. Fact is South Africa had to beat Fiji, Argentina and then England to win the tornement, which none of the teams had a genuine openside flanker other than Fiji (whom did well considering), so my point stands. South Africa in 2009 were easily better than they were in 2007, hands down. In 2007 they got destroyed in the Tri Nations winning 1 of 4 games, against teams with Richie McCaw and George Smith. The South Africa backrow was Danie Rossouw, Juan Smith and Schalk Burger which was hardly balenced or especially effective, which is why South Africa relied essentially on a kicking game in which having possession was actually a disadvantage.

In my defence, I thought Crane was out for the rest of the year rather than season - I thought he was back after Christmas

The Moody thing: My mistake Got mixed up as neither Haskell or Moody are opensides, yet play there

Either way, he's not a 7, shouldn't play 7, and I don't recall our backrow being that great in 07



Was that for Saxons?
His only England cap was starting at 6 - Can't ever remember him playing anything other than 6, internationally, to be honest




This whole Moody debate is academic anyway, as he's out for 10-12 weeks which should mean he won't play in the 6N (unless he's rushed back and straight into international matches, which hopefully England have grown out of after Youngs, Moody and Sheridan all imploded when they did that to them)[/QUOTE

Thats a silly thing to say, you obviously didnt watch the knockout stages of the WC in 2007 if you think that. I have a copy of the QF between England and Aus would be happy to lend it to you so you could see how wrong you are.....

This is a public forum...blah, blah, blah....

 

[lucky number 7]

Would he not need to be getting a game first no?

 

[gingergenius]

Please can nobody use 07 as an example of England being good. It would be like saying France are a great side now. We'd have been better off getting dumped out of the Quarters in France, maybe we might have started rebuilding then instead of doing it halfheartedly 18 months ago.

 

[Saintjay]

I get your point.

Both France and England 07 did not play what is seen as good rugby. You could argue they did good enough to get to the finals

 

[TRF_Olyy]

England didn't do good ​enough, they just did enough

 

[Peat]

To update the argument - Robshaw starts at 7 for Quins this week against Tolouse, with Easter returning and Fa'asavalu at 6. Given that Luke Wallace, who's played most of his rugby at openside, is on the bench, this would seem to suggest that Robshaw is 8 cover as well if needed.

He will be up against:

6 Nyanga
7 Dusautoir
8 Picamoles

Good test of the man's credentials coming up.

 

[McTallshort]

Well in fairness the loose forwards during the RWC were hardly brilliant. Fact is South Africa had to beat Fiji, Argentina and then England to win the tornement, which none of the teams had a genuine openside flanker other than Fiji (whom did well considering), so my point stands. South Africa in 2009 were easily better than they were in 2007, hands down. In 2007 they got destroyed in the Tri Nations winning 1 of 4 games, against teams with Richie McCaw and George Smith. The South Africa backrow was Danie Rossouw, Juan Smith and Schalk Burger which was hardly balenced or especially effective, which is why South Africa relied essentially on a kicking game in which having possession was actually a disadvantage.



This is a public forum...blah, blah, blah....

Well it would stand if the two top sides with specialist 7s had not been knocked out in the QF by 2 teams who didnt........

Lets agree to disagree on this. I play flanker and can switch between the 2 (although I perhaps am not the best example).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Well it would stand if the two top sides with specialist 7s had not been knocked out in the QF by 2 teams who didnt........

Hmm?
I seem to remember seeing Aus, Wales and New Zealand all in the semis, and they had the best opensides there, imo




Do you know how long Anthony Allen is out for?
Was wondering who is going to take over from Tindall and Hape (I, unfortunately, expect Banahan to still be in the squad) - Hopefully Allen is back with enough time to impress before the squad is named (though I think it's named at the end of January?!)

 

[ranger]

Well it would stand if the two top sides with specialist 7s had not been knocked out in the QF by 2 teams who didnt........

Lets agree to disagree on this. I play flanker and can switch between the 2 (although I perhaps am not the best example).

I play 7 and am more suited to backing up in the backline than playing 6. I can't see how you can stand by saying a "good" flanker can play both, Kaino cant. Are you saying Kaino is just not a "good" flanker? Ruben Thorne, Jerry Collins, Sione Lauaki, Adam Thompson not any good?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Do you know how long Anthony Allen is out for?
Was wondering who is going to take over from Tindall and Hape (I, unfortunately, expect Banahan to still be in the squad) - Hopefully Allen is back with enough time to impress before the squad is named (though I think it's named at the end of January?!)

I think we will see Farrel play 12 (Owen not Andy), other than that i thought JTH would be in with a shout but i think he is injured again..any quins fans know more?

Please just no Banahan! England jsut dont seem to produce many good or even great 12's

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not true, there are a number of good 12s, they just don't get picked for the England squad...

 

[Patolski]

Another fan of robshaw at 7 for many a year here! Dont think he can create a long enough base at the back of a scrum so the sh can give good enough service. Tom Wood was a 6 being looked at as a possible 8 because of his athleticism, pace and footballing skills, hes just used at 7 at northampton beause dowson wilson and clark are all a bit lumpy and slow. Add half a stone to him and more tape (more tape makes everyone better, just look at simon shaw) and hell be a footballing pacey 8. Croft is a must at 6 if Lawes is played in the 2nd row seeing as he is a rather shoddy lineout opption, just look the the south africa test in 2010 where he was rather awful at securing possession at lineout time. Which then leaves Robshaw to play 7, i want him to loose a bit more weight though, hes a bit bulky because he played 6 and 8 because to accomodate skinner and wallace and when Easter isnt avaiable and guest and york are injured. if he gets down under 17st so he is a bit more agile he`ll be at damn near every breakdown either carrying supporting or stealing oppo ball. Would love to see Guest at 8 though.

As im in a ranting mood, i dont like Lawes as a 2nd row hes nowhere near intellegent enough and doesnt do all his duties as a 2nd row. he carries ball, he hit rucks but just doesnt comfortably secure lineout ball! Id have attwood and skivington in there with charlie matthews as one for the future, no more deacon! ive always been a massive fan of skivington and hes what ben kay should have been like if he didnt drop that ball in 03... I cant really think of many young lineout opperators to be honest which i guess why croft is pretty vital if england pick 2 meat heads to back up some young props

Moving onto the front row, what happend to nathan catt? i read somewhere he should be given a 10 year contract and people should watch him get 70 caps... where is this guy then and why no caps yet? he made corbisiero play 3 for the u20s so he could play 1? dont think marler is an international scrummager yet, he offers allot on both sides of the scrum and around the park, but not an actual scrum anchor and got a real seeing over by ben broster. Cole and Corbisiero will be there if the do not drop form but i want more formidable scrummaging from both and no against pants aussie 3rd choice front rows. i want cole to get a few of the french and southafricans having nightmares about him. not much opption at tighthead to be seen unless henry thomas and will collier appear from nowhere and turn a few heads, i liked collier but kyle sincler seems to be prefered to him at quins unless hes injured? moving to the middle of the scrum.... no more mears or chuter as panic choices! And someone else is needed instead of fatty hartley, the guy should move back to prop at his size. Tom lindsay is a big lad but he gets about alot and appears far more intelligent than hartleys smash and grab then punch people in the face and poke them in the eye and then look baffled to why brad thorn is starting on you when you know you forarmed his captain in the face style of play. Joe Gray of quins is another ***anic hooker, supposedly 6ft 1 and stands eye to eye with nick easter whos 6ft 4? somebodies telling fibs somewhere.

The future looks pretty good for english forward play aslong as an intelligent and mobile pack are chosen, not a bunch of fat old men who do as they are told

 

[Peat]

You want Dan Cole to give the French props nightmares? Stone me, you don't ask for much do you? They're 24 and 23, they're propping babies, and I'm intrigued to think who you think is out there who's a better prop than Cole/Corbs who's the same age. I will give you Owen Franks. Also, Nathan Catt has been queueing behind Bath's front row legion, which is finally beginning to die.

I'm intrigued that you didn't mention Robson as a potential England lock.

 

[gingergenius]

Robson as a potential lock is a good shout. In fairness he's been off my radar, but every time I've seen him recently he's been excellent. England need a lineout specialist to partner Lawes, I think Robson's worth a shout.

After the week's discussion I spent last night's game watching Robshaw intensely for his performance at 7.... and while he did nothing wrong, it proved to me why he should never play there for England. That was the highest level Quins have had to play this season, the closest to test level, and they got smashed at the breakdown; and Robshaw in a traditional 7 role was anonymous. This is not a criticism of him - he's my 1st choice 6 - but not an openside.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I was watching out for Robshaw as well - played like a 6 and even scrummed down on the blindside too
Not sure why they didn't just give him the 6 shirt?

 

[Patolski]

he was to busy having to support the centres ball carrying to be able to play his more industrial game. When JTH plays they have a midfield target who can break the gain line without needing a backrow to push them over it and he was having to help mop up after his centres who were on the lighter side against a rather large toulouse midfield

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's not his job though, surely?
That should have been the blindside flanker - the openside is supposed to be at every ruck stealing ball/causing a nuisance