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Should drugs be legalised?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 22 2009, 12:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
And Mite, you mention the black market in cigarettes... ok it consists of kids who've brought a brick back from holiday and sell them at school; and a few polish guys running around selling marlboro lights with funny writing on them that makes feel like you're inhaling glass. Hardly significant. In fact, that backs up my point.[/b]

Is that really what you thionk the cigarettes black market is?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1169049.stm

That's just one of several thousand articles about how it's becoming a real problem in the uk, nay worldwide. Johnny Spotface bringing back 400 from Corfu and selling them at 40p a time to year 8 isn't on the radar.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (danny @ Jan 21 2009, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
After all the talk about Matt Stevens and his problem, what do you think about the legalisation of class "a" drugs such as cocaine and heroin. Would it affect crime or is it just society giving up on its self. Have your say![/b]


Drugs are short way towards the top of the fame and hence sports condition

This is the chemical interruption into humans' physiologic opportunities

What are we engineereing "New Race" again like Nazi????

What are drug users going totell Jonah Lomu? why do they use drugs? because they have some problems with health??

I think people must stand though against drugs
 
Yes, it could be the only solution to master the credit crunch.

High taxes on drugs will give the governments enormous incomes which they can give back to the people.
People will spend it (for new drugs) and everyone will be happy.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jawmalawm24 @ Jan 22 2009, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
The people on here saying there are positives about cocaine I think yous must be smoking some because no matter how you look at it cocaine is very very bad. No don't legalise cannabis just decriminalize it but yes I agree they should make cigarettes illegal I can't stand it when people smoke around me and they have no curtousy what so ever.[/b]

Nobody is saying coke is good for you. The point is, that no man should prohibit me from doing what I want to do, unless I prevent other people from doing the same. That, and how countries with illegal drugs have a higher number of users, and how it funds criminal cartels because it's illegal.

Why is everyone here so hellbent on telling other people what they can and can't do in their private life? Your own morals might tell you not to do drugs, but that doesn't mean you should force those morals upon others people, like the church.
 
Things like Crystal Meth, Cocain, Heroin, Opium? should never be legal... the amount of lives that Crystal Meth and Heroin have ruined is far greater than the amount of lives they have helped, Ecstasy and Cannabis aren't as bad as the ones I mentioned before.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Jan 22 2009, 02:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Nor should you force upon us how great being a smackhead is.[/b]

Nobody is forcing you to do anything, or are you against freedom of speech as well?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nidhogg @ Jan 23 2009, 12:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jawmalawm24 @ Jan 22 2009, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The people on here saying there are positives about cocaine I think yous must be smoking some because no matter how you look at it cocaine is very very bad. No don't legalise cannabis just decriminalize it but yes I agree they should make cigarettes illegal I can't stand it when people smoke around me and they have no curtousy what so ever.[/b]

Nobody is saying coke is good for you. The point is, that no man should prohibit me from doing what I want to do, unless I prevent other people from doing the same. That, and how countries with illegal drugs have a higher number of users, and how it funds criminal cartels because it's illegal.

Why is everyone here so hellbent on telling other people what they can and can't do in their private life? Your own morals might tell you not to do drugs, but that doesn't mean you should force those morals upon others people, like the church.
[/b][/quote]

Exactly. As I said, there is a very good case for people having the freedom to do to their own bodies whatever they damn well please. Seeing as everybody in the West is obsessed with 'freedom', we seem to be missing a bloody basic one...
 
Great arguments being put foreward regarding cannabis in this thread. The problem with using the Amsterdam model as a example as the way it can work, is that people here in the UK (not talking about other countries) already have huge problems with tobbacco and alcohol. Not many countries have the binge drinking etc. culture there is in this country.

Returning to university at the age of 23, really reminded me how obsessed 18/19 year olds can be on getting ****** all the time. Alcohol is legal, and therefore should be consumed responsibly, right? I just doesn't seem to work like that around here!

In an ideal world cannabis should be made legal as it's effects are on par with alcohol/tobbacco, but it would just get miss-used in Britain.
 
A lot of recent studies have suggested that cannabis, sensible amounts or otherwise, leads to long term mental health issues. It might not be as dangerous as Class A drugs, but gets my goat just about as much.

"Free the weed."

f**k off.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Jan 22 2009, 05:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
A lot of recent studies have suggested that cannabis, sensible amounts or otherwise, leads to long term mental health issues. It might not be as dangerous as Class A drugs, but gets my goat just about as much.

"Free the weed."

f**k off.[/b]

So what?

Science has told us that sitting badly at your computer gives you a bad back; using a mobile phone damages your brain; eating certain types of food gives you heart problems... i could go on.

Point is, are you saying we should ban everything that is bad for our health?
 
Do you mean health or mental health?

If you want to screw up your lungs by smoking... fine, that's your choice, I don't mind, so long as you don't do it near me and my lungs don't corrode. If you're going to smoke cannabis, I object - if you have a turn (and people do) then it could potentially affect me.
 
Ginger, never join a debate team. You're not doing bad coming up with counter-arguments but your logic is still lacking a bit. (If we ever have a debate team on TRF, I want to join Lekso's XD)

If you re-read the post in which I couldn't find any arguments you'll notice that it has no structure at all, a good argument exist exactly in that you don't have to go look for it, it's pretty clear at first sight.

I seem to have missed the bit where you said pot should be sold in pharmacies, but might I ask what in the world would be the logic in that? Are we selling liquor and cigarettes in pharmacies? The only things sold in pharmacies intended for fun are condoms, and those are just there because they can protect you from unwanted pregnancy (well maybe not you, but your partner) and sexual transmittable diseases. So why should pot be sold in pharmacies? From what you have said so far, you don't think weed should be legalised only for cancer patients who will regain their appetite while the weed works as a painkiller, let's call it prescription weed.
So if not sold in pharmacies, where then? There are only a few stores left in Belgium where you can only sell tobacco and related things (and those stores tend to sell things like meerschaumpipes and cigars rather than L&M), maybe we should have more places like that?
Or let's try the Dutch model, The Netherlands are at the moment considering diminishing the number of coffee shops where you can legally buy and use weed, because of all the trouble they bring (which consists mostly of tourists travelling especially there to buy some.)

As to your first point, I wasn't aware drugs could legally be grown in developed countries, could you give some examples?
Your second point seems to be "Yes, but those countries don't have working governments, so yeah". The world does not work that way, but individual countries can, if they have decent, non-corrupt governments. And since we're not discussing world politics, I will stand by my argument.

About "Freedom of Speech": I just had an exam today about a politician in Kentucky who has been making dozens of laws to enable him to put the ten commandments in public buildings, and the remark that 'without God America wouldn't be this great' in the home office. Fine, that's freedom of speech, it's also forcing religion upon other people who don't want to be confronted with it (I know, I'm going to hell yaddayadda). Freedom of Speech is what was used to defend some kid in the US who's full name is "Adolf Hitler Campbell" (his mother's name is Aryan Nation), which is just every day basic anti-Semitism. I'm all in favour of Freedom of Speech, but it should go hand in hand with Respect for others.
Niddhog, reading your posts, I'm with St Helens, it reads as 'can't be all that bad', why else would you want to try it?

All in all, if you're going to discuss something, try to find some argumentation "legalise weed, illegalise cigarettes" isn't just a stupid statement, it's also very annoying to read.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laetca @ Jan 22 2009, 07:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Ginger, never join a debate team. You're not doing bad coming up with counter-arguments but your logic is still lacking a bit. (If we ever have a debate team on TRF, I want to join Lekso's XD)

If you re-read the post in which I couldn't find any arguments you'll notice that it has no structure at all, a good argument exist exactly in that you don't have to go look for it, it's pretty clear at first sight.[/b]

You're lucky I have the patience to reply to that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 21 2009, 07:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Right, I'll expand on what I said in the Matt Stevens topic, and I'm only taliking about mainstream drugs:

1. The effects of a drug, on their own, do no harm to anyone but the user.


2. As a reply to point 1, I'm sure that people will bring up the quite valid argument of cocaine users and drinkers being lary. And believe me, I know all about it. But currently, cocaine is illegal, expensive, and consumed in a disgusting manner (I don't fancy snorting anything up my nose); yet the market for it is huge in spite of all this. We must accept that, whatever the authorities try, substances are always available to those who want them.

Drugs are like prostitution. There will always be demand, and thus there will always be supply. But the worst exploitations are committed when suppliers attempt to meet the demand for something illegal. I'll use prostitution as an example: If we accept that there will always be demand, then there will always be prostitutes. However, if it is illegal then these prostitutes get no rights. They have no protection from their services being abused; no chance of unionisation; thus no safety net that everyone else in employment expects. I needn't go in to details about the exploitation of prostitutes by pimps and suchlike.

Now I'll put this example onto drugs:

Ecstasy: MDMA pills were introduced in the USA about 30 years ago by, of all people, a priest in Texas. He used to give them to people for free because of the overwhelming euphoria they encouraged. After gaining popularity in the 80s, and having no serious health/ addiction risks attatched to them, they were made illegal by Reagan's government as part of a broad anti-drugs campaign, and the rest of the world followed suit. The science behind their illegality was based on a study saying that pills fried your brain; this study has not only been disproved subsequently; but the scientists who conducted it actually did the tests on another substance alltogether. Anyway, the result is that Ecstasy is now a Class A drug in Britain, with little to no solid evidence that it causes either long-term health damage, or that it causes anti-social behaviour. The major risk to do with Ecstasy itself is impurity. Why are there impurities? Because profit driven criminals with no moral scruples about the wellbeing of their customers dilute pills in order to get more pills from the same amount of MDMA. Were these pills legal, and regulated in the same way prescription drugs are regulated, this would not be an issue.

Cocaine & Heroin: Coca plants are grown by incredibly poor farmers in Peruvian and Colombian jungles. These farmers must provide a living for their family, which they cannot do by any other means. They are coerced into coca farming by local gangs; for them it is the only alternative to living subsistently. The coca leaves are then taken to be processed, a process that still takes place in the open air, in the jungle, and is still carried out by the poor. Heroin, as you know, is produced by incredibly poor people in Afghanistan, who are also exploited by gangs.

The transportation and smuggling process then begins... and this inevitably causes trouble and strife. It's not uncommon for cocaine to be smuggled inside a human body; usually a carrier who has been forced into it.

Were these drugs legal, they could be imported like anything else, grown as crops like anything else, and hence the exploitation and violence would be removed from the process. This works as well for Cannabis grown abroad.

3. Surely drug addicts commit a lot of felonies to feed their addiction? Yes, they do. But, if it was legal? Well, I'm not saying it should be sold at every off-licence. Here's where tobacco and alcohol come in. These are both addictive and dangerous drugs. But they coexist with society largely because they are extremely well regulated. Heroin, cocaine, etc. would have to be sold from pharmacies. But being sold over the counter means that the government has the ability to regulate the price. Which ought to see the price drop hugely. Lower price = less crime.

4. Most gang crime os over drugs. If drugs are legalised, then your street dealer is neutered. He's got no reason to stand outside all day on a corner. Which means good areas for selling will not be coveted by others. Which means killings, and other forms of violence will not take place. In the UK especially, street gangs these days are small-time drug crews. They're not into protection racketeering or anything like that. So there's really no need for a turf war if there's no profit to be made from the turf.

5. Hallucinogens are the only area I haven't covered. LSD, Mushrooms, Ketamine. Well, these are not addictive and do not have a detrimental effect on society like heroin does. Their effect is purely on the person using them. Which means it's personal choice.

I'll just finish up with this: Drug users themselves are not the problem. The biggest potential problems with the drugs trade come with the sort of men in charge of supply. Criminalising it means the men in charge will be criminals. Legalising it means they will be businessmen.[/b]


I fail to see how setting out 5 points as to why I think drugs should be legalised makes a bad argument. I fail to see how emboldening the key phrase in each point makes it unclear.

Drugs are sold in pharmacies; that's what pharmacies are for, regardless of whether they're fun or not. They're run by people with medical qualifications and hence know what a safe dose is/ what the customer requires. Furthermore, if paraphernalia like needles are supplied, that reduces the risk of spreading HIV. Nowhere did I say that alcohol and tobacco are sold in pharmacies, or that they should be. I said that legalised recreational drugs should be legislated like alcohol and tobacco are now.


I'm not going to get all petty and criticise your debating skills, I'll just be patronising and give you the benefit of the doubt because English isn't your first language. Regardless of who agrees with what, it'll be up to other people to decide who set out their argument well...
 
I can't remember who posted it, but that lost of wrestler, I think all died from abusing HGH (Human Growth Hormone), Steroids, Cocaine, Sleeping pills, I could do go one, the main point I'm trying to make is Cannabis doesn't kill people on it own, I'll admit that it can have a bad effect in the long term, but generally it's accepted that it makes certain mental illness worse, depending on how much you smoke.

THC (what actually gets you high) isn't a dangerous drug, it can be developed into a spray and has shown to have a positive effect on people in chronic pain (NPI) and long term/latent-cancer.

Smoking it obviously isn't good for you lungs, I rarely smoke with tabacco and often cook with it.

To be honest, weed is no worse than smoking or drinking, if I'm honest, it probably won't be legalized....I'd just rather a "Bill of Tolerance" was passed...then we could al smoke and not take THINGS SO f***ING SERIOUSLY.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 22 2009, 08:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I fail to see how setting out 5 points as to why I think drugs should be legalised makes a bad argument. I fail to see how emboldening the key phrase in each point makes it unclear.

Drugs are sold in pharmacies; that's what pharmacies are for, regardless of whether they're fun or not. They're run by people with medical qualifications and hence know what a safe dose is/ what the customer requires. Furthermore, if paraphernalia like needles are supplied, that reduces the risk of spreading HIV. Nowhere did I say that alcohol and tobacco are sold in pharmacies, or that they should be. I said that legalised recreational drugs should be legislated like alcohol and tobacco are now.


I'm not going to get all petty and criticise your debating skills, I'll just be patronising and give you the benefit of the doubt because English isn't your first language. Regardless of who agrees with what, it'll be up to other people to decide who set out their argument well...[/b]

Thank you for taking into account that English is not my first language (in theory it's my fourth actually).
I do understand now how you maintained your arguments were valid, while I failed to see them, all my posts in this topic so far have been as a reaction to your post directly above it (which I thought was obvious, since those posts were always quoted in my post.) Hence, the post made by you in which I fail to see the argument is the last one I reacted to. If I had chosen to counter-argue your first elaborate topic (quoted by you in the post I am now reacting to,) my post would have been much longer, as I don't believe in only questioning some arguments. Even if I don't see things your way, if you have a good argument for something I will freely admit it. It would take me more time than I have at the moment to write down my full appreciation of your arguments in that five point topic.

I still disagree with your argument about weed being sold in pharmacies, unless you mean that only people who would use it as a medication should be allowed to buy cannabis. Which you obviously do not. Drugs are sold in pharmacies, very true, in what way are tobacco and alcohol not a drug? Do you think only people with glaucoma would buy cannabis if it were available in a pharmacy? My main reasoning in thinking a pharmacy is a bad place to sell cannabis is just that most of the people buying cannabis will not be doing so because of medical reasons.

Just to make things clear, I have nothing against people who decide to do cannabis. I agree that alcohol is more damaging than cannabis at times, which is why I think that cannabis should be legalized, but only if the restrictions to drug use overall became stricter (i.e. harsher punishments for DWIs and such.) I simply disagree with your reasoning.

Finally, I did not realise we were up against one another debating. I doubt people will trouble themselves with deciding who is the victor in this discussion, and I can't say I care all that much :)

All that is left to say: My humble apologies to all those who have had to read my dreadful English so far. Can't say it will get better sadly.
 
Not sure why Gingergenius is having so much flac, I don't fully agree with him that drugs should be legalised, but there's no denying that the points he's bringing up are very valid.

Some of the points, especially that organised crime would drop by a huge margin (maybe only untill the criminals find something alse to make money off, but still it would) if drugs were legalised. There's all this ******** about pirating music etc. funding terrorists, it all comes from drug money, every last penny! It would improve the lives of hundreds of thousands of people involentary involved with the production, transportion and sometimes distribution of these drugs.

So can some of you get off your high horses and acknowlage there are other opinions than your own. Fine, overall you might think the negatives outweigh the positives (like myself), but it really isn't fair to start calling people names for voicing their opinions on a topic.

Edit: yes, your English is exceptional Laecta. I can barely manage 2 langages, and would seriously struggle with 3 or more!
 
Laetca, I got your sarcasm, well done. Can't be arsed to argue out any more since I've made all my points several times, as have you, and since it;s starting to get petty and personal, we can just agree to disagree.

St Helens, I know you're special for having set this site up and all the rest, but stop acting like such a self-righteous prick. You've given nothing to this topic barring flatout statements and trolls.
 
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