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Should drugs be legalised?

Wrestling, there's a good arguement...

Just ask;
Davey-Boy Smith
Eddie Guerrero
Chris Benoit
Ravishing-Rick Rude
Jake "the Snake" Roberts
Sherri Martel
Hawk
Chris Adams
Bam Bam Bigelow
Curt Hennig
Nancy Benoit
Brian Adams
Big Boss Man
Mike Awesome
Brian Pillman
Miss Elizabeth
Chase Tatum
Daniel Benoit
Crash Holly

There's a couple of common denominators between all of them...
 
Right, I'll expand on what I said in the Matt Stevens topic, and I'm only taliking about mainstream drugs:

1. The effects of a drug, on their own, do no harm to anyone but the user.


2. As a reply to point 1, I'm sure that people will bring up the quite valid argument of cocaine users and drinkers being lary. And believe me, I know all about it. But currently, cocaine is illegal, expensive, and consumed in a disgusting manner (I don't fancy snorting anything up my nose); yet the market for it is huge in spite of all this. We must accept that, whatever the authorities try, substances are always available to those who want them.

Drugs are like prostitution. There will always be demand, and thus there will always be supply. But the worst exploitations are committed when suppliers attempt to meet the demand for something illegal. I'll use prostitution as an example: If we accept that there will always be demand, then there will always be prostitutes. However, if it is illegal then these prostitutes get no rights. They have no protection from their services being abused; no chance of unionisation; thus no safety net that everyone else in employment expects. I needn't go in to details about the exploitation of prostitutes by pimps and suchlike.

Now I'll put this example onto drugs:

Ecstasy: MDMA pills were introduced in the USA about 30 years ago by, of all people, a priest in Texas. He used to give them to people for free because of the overwhelming euphoria they encouraged. After gaining popularity in the 80s, and having no serious health/ addiction risks attatched to them, they were made illegal by Reagan's government as part of a broad anti-drugs campaign, and the rest of the world followed suit. The science behind their illegality was based on a study saying that pills fried your brain; this study has not only been disproved subsequently; but the scientists who conducted it actually did the tests on another substance alltogether. Anyway, the result is that Ecstasy is now a Class A drug in Britain, with little to no solid evidence that it causes either long-term health damage, or that it causes anti-social behaviour. The major risk to do with Ecstasy itself is impurity. Why are there impurities? Because profit driven criminals with no moral scruples about the wellbeing of their customers dilute pills in order to get more pills from the same amount of MDMA. Were these pills legal, and regulated in the same way prescription drugs are regulated, this would not be an issue.

Cocaine & Heroin: Coca plants are grown by incredibly poor farmers in Peruvian and Colombian jungles. These farmers must provide a living for their family, which they cannot do by any other means. They are coerced into coca farming by local gangs; for them it is the only alternative to living subsistently. The coca leaves are then taken to be processed, a process that still takes place in the open air, in the jungle, and is still carried out by the poor. Heroin, as you know, is produced by incredibly poor people in Afghanistan, who are also exploited by gangs.

The transportation and smuggling process then begins... and this inevitably causes trouble and strife. It's not uncommon for cocaine to be smuggled inside a human body; usually a carrier who has been forced into it.

Were these drugs legal, they could be imported like anything else, grown as crops like anything else, and hence the exploitation and violence would be removed from the process. This works as well for Cannabis grown abroad.

3. Surely drug addicts commit a lot of felonies to feed their addiction? Yes, they do. But, if it was legal? Well, I'm not saying it should be sold at every off-licence. Here's where tobacco and alcohol come in. These are both addictive and dangerous drugs. But they coexist with society largely because they are extremely well regulated. Heroin, cocaine, etc. would have to be sold from pharmacies. But being sold over the counter means that the government has the ability to regulate the price. Which ought to see the price drop hugely. Lower price = less crime.

4. Most gang crime os over drugs. If drugs are legalised, then your street dealer is neutered. He's got no reason to stand outside all day on a corner. Which means good areas for selling will not be coveted by others. Which means killings, and other forms of violence will not take place. In the UK especially, street gangs these days are small-time drug crews. They're not into protection racketeering or anything like that. So there's really no need for a turf war if there's no profit to be made from the turf.

5. Hallucinogens are the only area I haven't covered. LSD, Mushrooms, Ketamine. Well, these are not addictive and do not have a detrimental effect on society like heroin does. Their effect is purely on the person using them. Which means it's personal choice.

I'll just finish up with this: Drug users themselves are not the problem. The biggest potential problems with the drugs trade come with the sort of men in charge of supply. Criminalising it means the men in charge will be criminals. Legalising it means they will be businessmen.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teh Mite @ Jan 21 2009, 09:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Wrestling, there's a good arguement...

Just ask;
Davey-Boy Smith
Eddie Guerrero
Chris Benoit
Ravishing-Rick Rude
Jake "the Snake" Roberts
Sherri Martel
Hawk
Chris Adams
Bam Bam Bigelow
Curt Hennig
Nancy Benoit
Brian Adams
Big Boss Man
Mike Awesome
Brian Pillman
Miss Elizabeth
Chase Tatum
Daniel Benoit
Crash Holly

There's a couple of common denominators between all of them...[/b]
Good gawlly miss molly looks like the Benoit's was one happy drugging family :huh:


Should drugs be legalised?...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!why the hell would anyone want to do it?

Just imagine watching a rugby game and a player asks the ref for a "line"

Ref:"yes there is the 22-meter line for the drop-out..."

Player:"okay thanks ref!"...... Player thinks by himself:" (gee they give drop-outs like me big lines to enjoy all by myself) "

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Already happened with Robbie Fowler in footy! :lol:

fowler.jpg
 
Fantastic celebration. Because it was totally ironic.

As for anyone who argues that drug taking only effects the user - NONSENSE! I have had more problems in town with people who are beaked up as opposed to tanked up on beer. An absurb argument.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Jan 21 2009, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Fantastic celebration. Because it was totally ironic.

As for anyone who argues that drug taking only effects the user - NONSENSE! I have had more problems in town with people who are beaked up as opposed to tanked up on beer. An absurb argument.[/b]

Did you read what I said? Ok, so cocaine is a pain in the arse in a pub. I agree, I've been in fights when we've beaten someone up who's coked up and he's kept coming back for more; I've had a fight with once of my best friends when he was coked up, and I've been beaten up by 2 coked up guys cos I confronted them for stealing a tenner off my mate. But this all happens with cocaine being ILLEGAL. So what good is it doing being illegal, when these people can still get their hands on it?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 21 2009, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
So what good is it doing being illegal, when these people can still get their hands on it?[/b]
Because more people would get their hands on it if it were legal. For much of the population, people don't want to break the law, illegal = bad.

If you remove that barrier, there will be a huge rise in people 'just trying it a couple of times' to see what it's like = addicted coke heads, who are no use to anybody and **** up society.

Does there need to be any more reasons.

btw, great post before on the positive reasons for legalising, of which there are plenty and shouldn't be disregarded so quickly by some.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 21 2009, 09:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Did you read what I said? Ok, so cocaine is a pain in the arse in a pub. I agree, I've been in fights when we've beaten someone up who's coked up and he's kept coming back for more; I've had a fight with once of my best friends when he was coked up, and I've been beaten up by 2 coked up guys cos I confronted them for stealing a tenner off my mate. But this all happens with cocaine being ILLEGAL. So what good is it doing being illegal, when these people can still get their hands on it?[/b]

I seem to miss the point of your argument to be honest, why would these people stop being obnoxious pricks while under the influence of cocaine if the cocaine itself was legal? You mentioned 3 fights where the reason for the fight seems to be 'the other person was using cocaine', which doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether or not cocaine is legal.

dundeesmiffy, I admit I don't know all of the people on your list, thanks for naming them :)
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 21 2009, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
But this all happens with cocaine being ILLEGAL. So what good is it doing being illegal, when these people can still get their hands on it?[/b]
That's got to be the worst argument for the legalisation of drugs I've ever heard.
Please tell me you were joking...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Laetca @ Jan 21 2009, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 21 2009, 09:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did you read what I said? Ok, so cocaine is a pain in the arse in a pub. I agree, I've been in fights when we've beaten someone up who's coked up and he's kept coming back for more; I've had a fight with once of my best friends when he was coked up, and I've been beaten up by 2 coked up guys cos I confronted them for stealing a tenner off my mate. But this all happens with cocaine being ILLEGAL. So what good is it doing being illegal, when these people can still get their hands on it?[/b]

I seem to miss the point of your argument to be honest, why would these people stop being obnoxious pricks while under the influence of cocaine if the cocaine itself was legal? You mentioned 3 fights where the reason for the fight seems to be 'the other person was using cocaine', which doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether or not cocaine is legal.

dundeesmiffy, I admit I don't know all of the people on your list, thanks for naming them :)
[/b][/quote]

Right, I understand where Dullonien and Laetca are coming from. Because we are all brought up with the idea that drugs=bad=illegal. It's normal for us that these things are illegal.

What I'm saying is that whether cocaine is illegal or not, there will still be arseholes sniffing around and being obnoxious in the pub. So, because our default position is that it's illegal, we think "that's not an argument!".

Let's change our perspective; making anything illegal costs a lot of money. So that's a con.
The fact that it is illegal means the people in control of production, transport and sale of the product are criminals. And with criminals comes violence, exploitation and all the rest. So that's a con.

In the pro column, the only one I can think of is that more people may use cocaine were it legal. For me, MAY is the operative word. Because I can't think of many people who will say "Oh, I'd love to, but it's against the law!". People in general don't tend to fear breaking the law; what controls us more is a deeper moral sense that something is right or wrong. And taking a drug is on a different side of the line to, for example, stabbing someone.

Now, it's really up to you whether you think that single pro outweighs the cons. I don't...
 
Making it legal wouldn't cure it, after all there's still a black market in cigarettes.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Jan 21 2009, 11:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Right, I understand where Dullonien and Laetca are coming from. Because we are all brought up with the idea that drugs=bad=illegal. It's normal for us that these things are illegal.

What I'm saying is that whether cocaine is illegal or not, there will still be arseholes sniffing around and being obnoxious in the pub. So, because our default position is that it's illegal, we think "that's not an argument!".

Let's change our perspective; making anything illegal costs a lot of money. So that's a con.
The fact that it is illegal means the people in control of production, transport and sale of the product are criminals. And with criminals comes violence, exploitation and all the rest. So that's a con.

In the pro column, the only one I can think of is that more people may use cocaine were it legal. For me, MAY is the operative word. Because I can't think of many people who will say "Oh, I'd love to, but it's against the law!". People in general don't tend to fear breaking the law; what controls us more is a deeper moral sense that something is right or wrong. And taking a drug is on a different side of the line to, for example, stabbing someone.

Now, it's really up to you whether you think that single pro outweighs the cons. I don't...[/b]

Have you taken the trouble of reading your own post? Because once again, I fail to see a decent argument (or it would have to be; "we should make it legal so more people will use drugs," I could see that one wrong though.)
I'm pretty sure that where cocaplants or papaver plants grow, other things would too. If the countries where both are produced had a working, non-corrupt government, farmers could receive government funding to start growing other crops.
While people might not hesitate to try cocaine simply because it is illegal, the fact that it is illegal does mean that it's not available in your average supermarket. You have to make a bigger effort to obtain it, you can't just see some advertised and think "hmm, I'm really craving some cocaine right now". A lot more people would be using cocaine and become addicted if this were the case.
 
Allow me to respond to some of the most common arguments against legalization.


Arguments against legalization:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
-Drugs are harmful for you!
-They fund crime/terrorism!
-Legalized soft drugs can become gateways to hard drugs!
-It's just morally wrong/bad, people who do drugs are bad people![/b]


Drugs are harmful for you

I. Obviously they are. A lot of things are harmful for you. These range from direct effects (like overdosing on narcotics) to more indirect effects (dying from a car crash). In the first case, the drugs
are directly causing the death. In the second case, it's not so much the driving of the car that causes the death, but the crash it leads to. If you compare the begin and end state of the two situations,
there is really no difference. Both are acts a human can undertake, and both acts have an inherent chance of leading to death or general harm. While the car crash is not a direct effect, this makes no difference
to the result whatsoever. In practical terms, we can thus assign a certain risk to almost any activity we undertake.

Viewed in this light, it seems odd make some acts illegal. It becomes even less logical when you realize that there isn't even a specific risk percentage above which every act is banned. Marijuana bears little risk to bodily harm, but it is banned, while playing sports, driving a car, or alcohol are perfectly legal, while it is clear that they are much more dangerous, percentage wise. Cutting out numbers that do not form a logical numerical pattern can only point to an alternate reason for outlawing those practices, something found rather in culture and tradition than actual logic or fact.

II. Then there is also the fact that preventing people from harming themselves is, in my eyes, a fundamental breach of their right to privacy. The government should not be able to restrict what you can and can't do to yourself. What gives them the right to put limits on you? Our entire modern society was once build on the idea that every should be free to do what he wants, unless he brings physical harm to others or restricts their freedom.


They fund crime/terrorism!

Independent studies have never shown significant links between drug-trade and terrorism, but it is quite true that drugs fund crime at the moment. It is, however, not true that this is because of prohibition. A while ago, the leader of a big colombian cartel went on record saying prohibition of drugs is a true blessing for his buisness. It is of great help to the cartels in a variety of ways.

I. First of all, it cuts out all the small dealers, because they will be busted by law-enforcement, while the big cartels have the money and material to evade them. Ensuring the large criminal cartels have the power over the market.

II. Because they control the production and smuggle routes into the country, they can control the scarcity, and make a huge pile of money.

III. Because there is no taxation, they make even more money.

IV. Because the prohibition is kept in the black market, forcing it to be smuggled in, the risk is maintained that creates part of it's value.


Legalized soft drugs can become gateways to hard drugs!

I. This one is a bit dubious as well. One of the key reasons why soft drugs are gateway drugs in the first place, is because in countries where there is prohibition, they come from the same
source as the hard drugs, because the vendors are the same. In illegality, there is no reason to separate both types of drugs, and dealers often use soft drugs to lure people into addictions to hard drugs.
In a legalized system, drugs can be separated. In the dutch system, the sources are completely separated, there is no need to get weed from illegal vendors anyway, it's not cheaper, and the quality isn't better either than the "legal" outlets. Only those actively seeking hard drugs (those who get it anyway, regardless of prohibition) come to those dealers, so soft drugs completely lose their gateway capacity (also partly due to honest education about their dangers, rather a one-sided slant about why their so bad).


It's just morally wrong/bad, people who do drugs are bad people!

I. Again, what's with the thought police? Moral judgment of people's private actions are a bridge to far for me. I do not discard the use of morals, as I personally use them to justify the main ethical rule I have, that is not to physically infringe upon other people, by killing them, hitting them, et cetera. What I don't support, and will never support, is other people telling me what to THINK, or what to do to or with my own body. No-one has jurisdiction over my person, rules are there for interaction between people, not to monitor the people themselves. Only things like religions like to do that.

II. Legalization makes it possible to control drugs, and thus limit the harm it does to people, wouldn't this be ethically better?


In the end, we can talk long and hard, but the numbers are in favor of legalization. In the Netherlands, the percentage of soft and hard drug use is much lower than in those countries with prohibition. That's just a straight fact, and the numbers show it has gotten better and better SINCE DECRIMINALIZATION. It has resulted in a society where people are educated on drugs openly, and where there is less peer pressure to actually start using.

Let me end with a quote by the philosopher John Stuart Mill:

Originally posted by John Stuart Mill
The only freedom which deserves the name is that of pursuing our own good in our own way, so long as we do not attempt to deprive others of theirs, or impede their efforts to obtain it. Each is the proper guardian of his own health, whether bodily, or mental or spiritual. Mankind are greater gainers by suffering each other to live as seems good to themselves, than by compelling each to live as seems good to the rest.
 
I don't think class A drugs should be legalised, but I honestly do think that cannabis does considerably less harm to society and the individuals who use it than either cigarettes or alcohol.

Also, there is the principal of the freedom to do to our own bodies whatever we damn well please - not that I'm necessarily saying we should, I just think that's something to add to the mix...
 
This thread is like an episode of The Young Ones.

DRUGS



ARE



ILLEGAL


Always have been, rightly so, and always will be, rightly so!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Jan 22 2009, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
This thread is like an episode of The Young Ones.

DRUGS



ARE



ILLEGAL


<strike>Always have been</strike>, rightly so, and always will be, rightly so![/b]

And Mite, you mention the black market in cigarettes... ok it consists of kids who've brought a brick back from holiday and sell them at school; and a few polish guys running around selling marlboro lights with funny writing on them that makes feel like you're inhaling glass. Hardly significant. In fact, that backs up my point.

Laetca, I never said legalising something = putting it in supermarkets. Firstly I said it would have to be controlled by legislation like tobacco and alcohol are; secondly I said they should be sold in pharmacies.

And for your farming policy:

1) Growing drugs in developed countries is still done, because of the high profits.
2) It's all very well saying that places like Peru and Afghanistan can simply get a nice government and everything will be ok, but the fact is the world doesn't work that way.

And if you can't find a decent argument, read again because it's packed full of decent arguments; whether you agree with them is another matter entirely.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (St Helens RLFC @ Jan 22 2009, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
This thread is like an episode of The Young Ones.

DRUGS



ARE



ILLEGAL


Always have been, rightly so, and always will be, rightly so![/b]


When does this "always" begin ?


From Wikipedia
Under the name cannabis, 19th century medical practitioners sold the drug, (usually as a tincture) popularizing the word amongst English-speakers. It was rumored that Queen Victoria's menstrual pains were treated with cannabis, because her personal physician, Sir John Russell Reynolds, wrote an article in the first edition of the medical journal The Lancet about the benefits of cannabis.<sup>[1]</sup> In 1894, the Report of the Indian Hemp Drugs Commission commissioned by the UK Secretary of State and the government of India, was instrumental in the decision not to criminalize the drug in those countries.<sup>[2]</sup> From 1906 different states in the United States started to implement regulations for sales of Cannabis indica. In 1925 a change of the International Opium Convention<sup>[3]</sup> banned exportation of Indian hemp to countries that have prohibited its use, and requiring importing countries to issue certificates approving the importation and stating that the shipment was required "exclusively for medical or scientific purposes."

In 1937 the F.D. Roosevelt administration crafted 1937 Marihuana Tax Act the first national US law making cannabis possession illegal in the US via an unpayable tax on the drug.

The name marijuana (Mexican Spanish marihuana, mariguana) is associated almost exclusively with the plant's psychoactive use. The term is now well known in English largely due to the efforts of American drug prohibitionists during the 1920s and 1930s, which deliberately used a Mexican name for cannabis in order to turn the populace against the idea that it should be legal, playing upon attitudes towards the nationality. (See 1937 Marihuana Tax Act). Those who demonized the drug by calling it marihuana omitted the fact that the "deadly marihuana" was identical to cannabis indica, which had at the time a reputation for pharmaceutical safety.<sup>[4]</sup> It must however be noted that cannabis indica in the 1930s had lost most of its former popularity as a medical drug.<sup>[5]</sup>



Also what is not written here is that hemp is a way better fiber than cotton (cheaper, more solid), and the plantations in Jamaica were an unwelcomed concurrent to the US cotton. Thus the banning.

I'm with Steve-o on this one. Stay away from powder or pills, and be sensible in your use. I mean alcohol is legal and not everybody becomes alcoholic right ?
 
Coke Heroin all that **** no......its bad long-term there is no such thing as moderate use.Although i wholeheartedly agree with the idea of cannabis being legalised its no different from alcohol and should taxed and regulated.
 
The people on here saying there are positives about cocaine I think yous must be smoking some because no matter how you look at it cocaine is very very bad. No don't legalise cannabis just decriminalize it but yes I agree they should make cigarettes illegal I can't stand it when people smoke around me and they have no curtousy what so ever.
 
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