Scotland vs Wales - 09/03/2013

[psychic duck]

In Coombs' defence, I have a problem with coaches picking players on past form or past achievements. I think all that counts for nothing if a players form isn't up to scratch. What you're saying here is that Wyn-Jones is a superior player at present purely for the fact he has been a Lion, won Grand Slams, has played more test matches, etc.

In that case would you throw Gavin Henson in at 10 for the Scotland match? He's been playing pretty well for London Welsh, so why not? He has won 2 grand slams and has more caps than Biggar, therefore must be better at the moment. Or would you play Rees over Hibbard? A former Lion is bound to be better than a puny Ospreys hooker, right? That's sort of what that argument sounds like to me, anyway.

Firstly his name isn't "Wyn-Jones".

Secondly, AWJ is different to the two cases of Henson and Rees you put forward.

Hibbard has been playing better than Matthew Rees over this past year, both have been fit and Hibbard has been the better player so Hibbard deserves to be selected. Rees has even dropped below Ken Owens now.

So unlike the situation at hooker where Hibbard has been better than Rees for a year. Coombs has never ever in his career ever been close to outplaying Alun-Wyn Jones at regional level for any period of time, and would have never even got a mere cap if it wasn't for an injury crisis at lock. I doubt many would have been demanding him in the squad either. A player like Matthew Rees has had his form on the pitch dip, not the same case with Alun-Wyn Jones who has been Wales' best lock for 7 years now.

Craig Mitchell did a decent job filling in for Adam in the 2011 6 Nations. Nobody ever questioned Adam Jones getting right back into the team for the World Cup. Same with Paul James who has filled in on occasions for an injured Gethin Jenkins, at the RWC James did well against South Africa and Samoa, but when Gethin was fit he was the right choice to return to the starting XV. There wasn't that issue with them, but Coombs seems to have got people in love with him.

And also, I wouldn't mind Henson returning provided he has his right. Regardless of some of his stupidity off the pitch, he is still probably the best 12 of the 6 Nations era and Wales' best for sure. And despite prolonged unfortunate needless breaks where his skills have been wasted, judging by recent performances he hasn't lost it. I agree with Draggs, he would be a better option than Roberts or Davies in the centres on the field.

I agree with duck on this. Coombs has done really well, and he can really hold his head high at the performances he's put in, but when you've got a player of the calibre of Alun-Wyn Jones fit, he comes straight back in. I also think Coombs' performances have been blown a little out of proportion. He's been good, much better than expected tbh, but he hasn't been exceptional.

Not sure either why Warburton has been picked ahead of Tips. Tips has taken his opportunity well, and whilst he hasn't had a chance to really shine in the tightly fought games against France and Italy, he's still put in a lot of hard work. Warbs should have had to re-claim the shirt by putting in big substitute appearances, and showing form for the Blues (why wasn't he released this past weekend?). Warbs is still a solid player, but Tipuric deserved a run of games, and he hasn't been given that.

I also wanted to add to my opinions about Warburton v Tipuric. Ultimately I suppose it's just great that this debate is happening. I still think Warburton is a quality player, and will show that again soon. Whether that is in this game, I'm not sure, but it'll be even better to have both Warburton and Tipuric on top form and challenging each other. They should drive each other forwards to better things for years to come, not to mention the other opensides developing in Wales.

I agree with you dullonien on this post on pretty much all of it. Not sure why Tipuric is dropped.

Warburton is far better at the breakdown than Tipuric. Tipuric's strength is his link play and this has barely come into play the last two games. He's an outstanding club player but this is mainly because he is brilliant in the loose, because club rugby is more open. He hasn't proven himself to a top class 7 at test level in my opinion - I mean sure he hasn't done that much wrong but he's barely added anything extra. I reckon Tipuric will turn into a permanent impact player for Wales, much like Adam Thomson for New Zealand - he was, in the end, pretty much told he wasn't physical enough for test rugby.

Tipuric is much better than how your presenting him. Tipuric at his best is comparable to Warburton at his best, both are good players and as good as each other. And this season most think he has been better. I also disagree about the breakdown, Tipuric wins plenty of turnovers and memorably turned over BOD to win the RaboPro12 final on the last attack. Tipuric has hardly had much opportunity starting for Wales also, just 5 starts, too soon to make statements like he will only likely be an impact player in his career.

 

[Ospreylian]

Firstly his name isn't "Wyn-Jones".

Craig Mitchell did a decent job filling in for Adam in the 2011 6 Nations. Nobody ever questioned Adam Jones getting right back into the team for the World Cup. Same with Paul James who has filled in on occasions for an injured Gethin Jenkins, at the RWC James did well against South Africa and Samoa, but when Gethin was fit he was the right choice to return to the starting XV. There wasn't that issue with them, but Coombs seems to have got people in love with him.

And also, I wouldn't mind Henson returning provided he has his right. Regardless of some of his stupidity off the pitch, he is still probably the best 12 of the 6 Nations era and Wales' best for sure. And despite prolonged unfortunate needless breaks where his skills have been wasted, judging by recent performances he hasn't lost it. I agree with Draggs, he would be a better option than Roberts or Davies in the centres on the field.

Ok, well I'm sorry about the "Wyn-Jones" thing, it was a mistake and I was typing fast.

I think the reason why "Coombs seems to have got people in love with him" is because he has genuinely put in some really great performances and doesn't deserved to be dropped for someone who has only just come back from injury. It just simply is a case of having some continuity and showing faith in players when they perform very well for you. If you drop a player after some great performances, what kind of a message does that give to the rest of the squad?

Also, Coombs has been the 7th top ball carrier in the tournament so far, with 29 carries (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html). You might not think 7th sounds very good, but when you consider the only people above him are the likes of Faletau, O'Brien, Picamoles, Robshaw, and Zanni (and Masi, surprisingly) it is pretty darn impressive considering all of those other players are back-row ball-carriers. I know a lock's primary role isn't to carry, but with Ian Evans doing wonders for us in the line-out at the moment, I think Coombs provides something completely different and very effective for the team. The Welsh public aren't stupid, I think they have genuinely seen all the hard work he has put in. I saw a WalesOnline poll that said about 68% of the Welsh public wanted to see Coombs keep his place over Jones. For a pretty unknown player to attract this much attention from the general, casual rugby-watching public is impressive in my opinion.

And just looking at more stats, it actually turns out Coombs has won more throws from the line-out than Evans! 11 to 8. Coombs is 5th, behind Parling. So even in the line-out he seems to be one of the main go-to options for Wales at the moment.

So let's summarize. Coombs has won more line-outs than Evans, has made the most amount of carries for a non-back row forward in the tournament, has won most of the Welsh public over, and has silenced a lot of his critics (and there was A LOT) in the space of three international games.

On the note of Henson, I agree that he would be a better option at inside centre. But that's not what I was arguing. I was asking if Biggar should be dropped for Henson, with Biggar having played so consisntently well over the course of this season, and Henson having a run of a few good games recently.

 

[dullonien]

Warburton is far better at the breakdown than Tipuric. Tipuric's strength is his link play and this has barely come into play the last two games. He's an outstanding club player but this is mainly because he is brilliant in the loose, because club rugby is more open. He hasn't proven himself to a top class 7 at test level in my opinion - I mean sure he hasn't done that much wrong but he's barely added anything extra. I reckon Tipuric will turn into a permanent impact player for Wales, much like Adam Thomson for New Zealand - he was, in the end, pretty much told he wasn't physical enough for test rugby.

Warburton is physical and has breakdown prowess and his attacking game is based on his ball carrying rather than link play. His tackles are harder than Tipuric's as well. He wouldn't have been bossed around off the scrum by Vosowai, the Italian 8 like Tipuric was (3 relatively simple miss tackles). That is a proven fact. I've seen him drive Kieran Read and Imanol Harinordoquy backwards when they've picked up from the back. He is a strong tackler.

Tipuric has been better at the breakdown than Warburton over the past season or so. I think it's unfair to say that Tipuric's only assets are his open link play. That is what stands him out from most other players, but his tight game is also pretty darn good, and I don't think Wales would have beaten France if it wasn't. As duck said, with both at their best, I think there is little to separate the two. Warburton a little more physical in his call carrying and tackling, Tipuric a better open field runner and link man. However at the moment, Tipuric is the man in form (and has been his entire professional career), whilst Warburton's has dipped in certain areas of his game.

I don't want this to sound like I'm bashing Warbs, because I'm not. Many facets of his game are still very good. He still offers an explosive ball carrying option, and his defence is still very good. He has struggled to assert himself at the breakdown, and that might be because he hasn't quite reached the same levels of fitness he had pre ban/injuries, and is therefore a split second later arriving at the ruck. I think he's still a top class player, and he will return to form next season. That however doesn't mean it's right that he's automatically parachuted back into the starting lineup in front of one of the form players in Wales over the past couple of seasons.

The difference between this scenario and the Coombs v Alun-Wyn Jones one, is that Jones isn't out of form, he was simply injured, and Coombs hasn't been such a prominent player in the past at region or international. As I said, Coombs has been good (also made plenty of mistakes, such as knock on's and giving away penalties), but Alun-Wyn Jones is a step above in terms of quality. Imo, if fit Alun-Wyn would have put in better performances that Coombs, but that's to be expected from a player with 60+ caps. Dropping Coombs to the bench doesn't give any kind of bad message to the squad. Coombs will be over the moon about his 3 caps, and how well he's performed, but I'm sure he himself acknowledges Alun-Wyn's quality.

The comparison's with Henson-Biggar is a little silly too. Henson has been out of the fold for years, Alun-Wyn has been injured since the Autumn. Biggar has been performing well for the past couple of seasons, Coombs only really stepped up for Wales (not shown much at the Dragons, props to Howley here for seeing his potential, me to as I put his name forward on this forum beforehand )

 

[psychic duck]

I think the reason why "Coombs seems to have got people in love with him" is because he has genuinely put in some really great performances and doesn't deserved to be dropped for someone who has only just come back from injury. It just simply is a case of having some continuity and showing faith in players when they perform very well for you. If you drop a player after some great performances, what kind of a message does that give to the rest of the squad?

Well researched and written reply, but in my opinion you (and many others) are going OTT about Coombs.

He's done decently, reading your post you would get the impression that he is a genuine contender for the Lions. He has been decent not "great", shown good effort but lacks the quality of other locks.

Also Alun-Wyn Jones has played for 4 weeks now, I think he should be fit enough. Coombs has never at any point in his career played better than AWJ when in direct competition with him, if AWJ's form dips and Coombs outplays him on regional form then you can ask questions. No room for sentiment, as dullonien said, Coombs can be pleased with his efforts, but now with locks getting fit again he'll need to go back to the Dragons and perform if he wants to get back into the starting XV when there isn't a lock injury crisis.

By your logic, after Paul James did well against South Africa and Samoa in the 2011 World Cup, that Wales should have left out Gethin. Or when Mitchell did decently in the 2011, we should have kept Adam Jones returning from injury on the bench. There were no objection to those calls at the time back then.

Also, Coombs has been the 7th top ball carrier in the tournament so far, with 29 carries (Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html). You might not think 7th sounds very good, but when you consider the only people above him are the likes of Faletau, O'Brien, Picamoles, Robshaw, and Zanni (and Masi, surprisingly) it is pretty darn impressive considering all of those other players are back-row ball-carriers. I know a lock's primary role isn't to carry, but with Ian Evans doing wonders for us in the line-out at the moment, I think Coombs provides something completely different and very effective for the team. The Welsh public aren't stupid, I think they have genuinely seen all the hard work he has put in. I saw a WalesOnline poll that said about 68% of the Welsh public wanted to see Coombs keep his place over Jones. For a pretty unknown player to attract this much attention from the general, casual rugby-watching public is impressive in my opinion.

I don't like the ball carry stats. Tom Smith at the Ospreys once topped them one week and people were saying how great it was, disregarding the fact he made about 1 metre from all of them. Metres made/gainline success are more important.

Also if you look at Coombs' play, you will also see that he is essentially a 6 playing with a 4 on his back. He doesn't offer the work in the tight at rucks and scrums that Alun-Wyn Jones does. Plus Alun-Wyn Jones is better at most of what Coombs can do decently anyway.

I also query the "Welsh public aren't stupid" statement. That's the same Welsh media and general public that thought that Andy Powell was so ace and hyped him up after one match against South Africa in 2008 and got him onto the Lions tour. The same Welsh public that gives the likes of Stephen Jones and Dan Biggar or any other fly half grief simply because they are not Barry John? I bet you the Welsh public will want Biggar dropped again as soon as Wales lose by the way.

So let's summarize. Coombs has won more line-outs than Evans, has made the most amount of carries for a non-back row forward in the tournament, has won most of the Welsh public over, and has silenced a lot of his critics (and there was A LOT) in the space of three international games.

Being better than the very average expectations of him which were based on the fact he hadn't made much impact at all for the Dragons these past few seasons, only featuring more this season and still not even being the first pick at lock and just rotating with Adam Jones and Rob Sidoli. The fact he was better than the average expectations of him, doesn't mean that he is better than Alun-Wyn.

On the note of Henson, I agree that he would be a better option at inside centre. But that's not what I was arguing. I was asking if Biggar should be dropped for Henson, with Biggar having played so consisntently well over the course of this season, and Henson having a run of a few good games recently.

No. For the reason that you say, Biggar has played pretty consistently this season, and is due a run in the team.

Different situation to Coombs who only got in the team by default thanks to numerous lock injuries (Lou Reed would have played ahead of him if he didn't get injured for the Ireland match), as Biggar has worked his way into the side on regional performances, not by default due to injuries.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Coombs lineout figures are slightly misleading because Wales threw to him the most because other teams probably didn't feel that he was much of a target, so Wales threw to him more. He's been good but not as Duck said Lions esq standard as whats been made out. He's still raw and has made a couple of mistakes which has cost Wales possession and points. However he's not let himself down in a Welsh shirt.

The problem with hyping players comes from the rubbish the Western Fail spout. So many lazy journalists and a head rugby journalist who loves to recycle old articles.

 

[tompaton]

Tipuric is much better than how your presenting him. Tipuric at his best is comparable to Warburton at his best, both are good players and as good as each other. And this season most think he has been better. I also disagree about the breakdown, Tipuric wins plenty of turnovers and memorably turned over BOD to win the RaboPro12 final on the last attack. Tipuric has hardly had much opportunity starting for Wales also, just 5 starts, too soon to make statements like he will only likely be an impact player in his career.

I agree with you at the Ospreys he is great at the breakdown. But at test level, I have barely seen him stick his head into a breakdown - last two games anyway - let alone make a turnover. He also missed three easy tackles as well. Warburton didn't make any clean steals against Ireland but on a couple occasions was unlucky not to win penalties. He also slowed the ball down a lot. That's a fair call on the impact player thing though it is early days in his test career.

I'm saying is that Tipuric has not added anything that Warburton was not giving to the team. Warburton is a more powerful ball carrier and tackler (his strength) whilst Tipuric excels in the loose. Test rugby isn't as loose as club rugby, so his attributes aren't as well suited in my opinion. If you look at the best flankers in world rugby like McCaw, Pocock, Dusautoir, Kaino (it doesn't matter if they are 6 or 7s) they all have some physicality about them. It's just the way the game is going. I guess we'll know by Saturday who gives more impact to the team.

Tipuric has been better at the breakdown than Warburton over the past season or so. I think it's unfair to say that Tipuric's only assets are his open link play. That is what stands him out from most other players, but his tight game is also pretty darn good, and I don't think Wales would have beaten France if it wasn't. As duck said, with both at their best, I think there is little to separate the two. Warburton a little more physical in his call carrying and tackling, Tipuric a better open field runner and link man. However at the moment, Tipuric is the man in form (and has been his entire professional career), whilst Warburton's has dipped in certain areas of his game.

I don't want this to sound like I'm bashing Warbs, because I'm not. Many facets of his game are still very good. He still offers an explosive ball carrying option, and his defence is still very good. He has struggled to assert himself at the breakdown, and that might be because he hasn't quite reached the same levels of fitness he had pre ban/injuries, and is therefore a split second later arriving at the ruck. I think he's still a top class player, and he will return to form next season. That however doesn't mean it's right that he's automatically parachuted back into the starting lineup in front of one of the form players in Wales over the past couple of seasons.

The difference between this scenario and the Coombs v Alun-Wyn Jones one, is that Jones isn't out of form, he was simply injured, and Coombs hasn't been such a prominent player in the past at region or international. As I said, Coombs has been good (also made plenty of mistakes, such as knock on's and giving away penalties), but Alun-Wyn Jones is a step above in terms of quality. Imo, if fit Alun-Wyn would have put in better performances that Coombs, but that's to be expected from a player with 60+ caps. Dropping Coombs to the bench doesn't give any kind of bad message to the squad. Coombs will be over the moon about his 3 caps, and how well he's performed, but I'm sure he himself acknowledges Alun-Wyn's quality.

The comparison's with Henson-Biggar is a little silly too. Henson has been out of the fold for years, Alun-Wyn has been injured since the Autumn. Biggar has been performing well for the past couple of seasons, Coombs only really stepped up for Wales (not shown much at the Dragons, props to Howley here for seeing his potential, me to as I put his name forward on this forum beforehand )

I didn't mean it was his only asset, I meant it's a major part of his game. Like I've said above, explosive ball carrying options and physicality is probably required more at test level than link play these days.

Howley said the main reason for picking Warbs was because he is better at the breakdown, which I agree with. Tipuric hasn't disrupted the ball much for Wales, not really replicating his displays at the Ospreys. Warburton may not be making the clean steals like you said but he's always there at the breakdown slowing it down.

 

[dullonien]

I agree with you at the Ospreys he is great at the breakdown. But at test level, I have barely seen him stick his head into a breakdown - last two games anyway - let alone make a turnover. He also missed three easy tackles as well. Warburton didn't make any clean steals against Ireland but on a couple occasions was unlucky not to win penalties. He also slowed the ball down a lot. That's a fair call on the impact player thing though it is early days in his test career.

I'm saying is that Tipuric has not added anything that Warburton was not giving to the team. Warburton is a more powerful ball carrier and tackler (his strength) whilst Tipuric excels in the loose. Test rugby isn't as loose as club rugby, so his attributes aren't as well suited in my opinion. If you look at the best flankers in world rugby like McCaw, Pocock, Dusautoir, Kaino (it doesn't matter if they are 6 or 7s) they all have some physicality about them. It's just the way the game is going. I guess we'll know by Saturday who gives more impact to the team.




I didn't mean it was his only asset, I meant it's a major part of his game. Like I've said above, explosive ball carrying options and physicality is probably required more at test level than link play these days.

Howley said the main reason for picking Warbs was because he is better at the breakdown, which I agree with. Tipuric hasn't disrupted the ball much for Wales, not really replicating his displays at the Ospreys. Warburton may not be making the clean steals like you said but he's always there at the breakdown slowing it down.

But you're basing your opinions solely on the last two games, where Wales have been trying to get themselves back to winning ways by playing rather one dimensional stuff. In other games where Tipuric has features, he's had no issues getting involved at the breakdown. Think back to last years 6 nations clash against Ireland, where Tips came on in the second half and dominated the breakdown. You're criticism of him in this aspect over the last two games is akin to criticising Adam Jones for a lack of impact in the scrum in a couple of games where there were no scrummages took place.

When was the last time Warburton put in a strong showing at the breakdown anyway? Talking about for Wales and the Blues here. We're probably talking about last seasons 6 nations, or maybe before. It's the one aspect of his game that has struggled. if this weren't the case, he'd still be 1st in line for the Lions, and his lead by example captaincy wouldn't be being questioned.

 

[Ospreylian]

Well researched and written reply, but in my opinion you (and many others) are going OTT about Coombs. He's done decently, reading your post you would get the impression that he is a genuine contender for the Lions. He has been decent not "great", shown good effort but lacks the quality of other locks.

Why thank you I don't think I was going over the top about Coombs, just that he hasn't done anything to deserve being dropped. I also never said I thought he was a Lions contender, my Lions locks would probably be Evans and Parling at the minute. I would just like to see Alun-Wyn get back to his class form through the Ospreys. I want him to get a good string of games together at club level before he comes back for Wales. Gatland won't have forgotten about Jones just because he wasn't playing in the first 3 matches. He is still one of the top contenders for the Lions, so even if he didn't play a single minute more in this tournament he would still be one of the first on the list of potential locks for the tour.

Also Alun-Wyn Jones has played for 4 weeks now, I think he should be fit enough. Coombs has never at any point in his career played better than AWJ when in direct competition with him, if AWJ's form dips and Coombs outplays him on regional form then you can ask questions. No room for sentiment, as dullonien said, Coombs can be pleased with his efforts, but now with locks getting fit again he'll need to go back to the Dragons and perform if he wants to get back into the starting XV when there isn't a lock injury crisis.

By your logic, after Paul James did well against South Africa and Samoa in the 2011 World Cup, that Wales should have left out Gethin. Or when Mitchell did decently in the 2011, we should have kept Adam Jones returning from injury on the bench. There were no objection to those calls at the time back then.

I don't doubt he is physically fit. All I'm saying is that there is only two games left now. Wales don't look like they are going to win the tournament because of points difference. Why not give Coombs those last two games, because he has been playing so well, and show the rest of the team that no-ones place should be taken for granted. I'm sure if Priestland were to come back from injury, most people would want Biggar to keep starting, and for Howley to ignore Priestland's past good form in the world cup and such.

I agree that Jones is obviously the long-term lock option, and being an Ospreys fan I obviously know what he is capable of. But that does not mean he has to do nothing to earn his place back. I think he needs more time to prove he is completely ready to take over again. Wales won't lose anything from doing this. He isn't so crucial to Wales' game that not including him will cause them to lose against Scotland. I just think Coombs would have been a good physical option over a Scotland team who have many big, physical forwards themselves.

I also query the "Welsh public aren't stupid" statement. That's the same Welsh media and general public that thought that Andy Powell was so ace and hyped him up after one match against South Africa in 2008 and got him onto the Lions tour. The same Welsh public that gives the likes of Stephen Jones and Dan Biggar or any other fly half grief simply because they are not Barry John? I bet you the Welsh public will want Biggar dropped again as soon as Wales lose by the way.

To be fair I think only some of Welsh public give certain players grief like that. And I think it is actually mainly the Welsh media that tends to give fly-halves a lot of criticism. Andy Powell, when he first came onto the scene for Wales, did actually play very well and suited the style of play the team wanted to play. He was, like Coombs, someone playing well in that particular moment who deserved their chance and was just keeping Wales ticking over until their star players came back, or emerged. I had no problem with Powell when he was playing well. I do, however, think the management played him for too long after his form had been lost. But the difference is, Coombs hasn't lost form. If anything his form has grown extremely rapidly.

Being better than the very average expectations of him which were based on the fact he hadn't made much impact at all for the Dragons these past few seasons, only featuring more this season and still not even being the first pick at lock and just rotating with Adam Jones and Rob Sidoli. The fact he was better than the average expectations of him, doesn't mean that he is better than Alun-Wyn.

Well, if we're going to be really picky, I'd say James King has been extremely unlucky to miss out on a starting spot for Wales this tournament. He had been playing better than both Coombs and Jones before the 6N began, was really good in the lineout, did the loose work, carried ball well, had good defence etc. He is also one the Welsh management should be developing for the world cup, he is still only 22.

 

[tompaton]

But you're basing your opinions solely on the last two games, where Wales have been trying to get themselves back to winning ways by playing rather one dimensional stuff. In other games where Tipuric has features, he's had no issues getting involved at the breakdown. Think back to last years 6 nations clash against Ireland, where Tips came on in the second half and dominated the breakdown. You're criticism of him in this aspect over the last two games is akin to criticising Adam Jones for a lack of impact in the scrum in a couple of games where there were no scrummages took place.

When was the last time Warburton put in a strong showing at the breakdown anyway? Talking about for Wales and the Blues here. We're probably talking about last seasons 6 nations, or maybe before. It's the one aspect of his game that has struggled. if this weren't the case, he'd still be 1st in line for the Lions, and his lead by example captaincy wouldn't be being questioned.

It's not just the last two games in all fairness. In the autumn, he had quiet showing against Samoa and on the Summer Tour against Australia when he had 50 minutes he didn't make a steal. Ireland is the only game I've seen him boss the breakdown (also made steals in the late stages coming on against Argentina and Australia in the autumn). I guess my point is that he hasn't, from what I've seen added much to the Wales game - nothing that Warburton didn't provide. I can also say that Warburton wouldn't have been bossed around at the back of the scrum by Vosowai like Tipuric was - I've seen Warbs drive the likes of Kieran Read and Imanol Harinordoquy sideways and backwards] from number eight picks.

I thought Warburton was good at the breakdown against New Zealand and Australia (albeit he conceded a few penalties in this game but made steals and slowed the ball down nonetheless) in the autumn. I haven't personally seen enough of the Blues to comment on his performances there, although he had a decent game against Munster (although that was a pretty poor Munster team in my opinion).

 

[j'nuh]

I agree with you at the Ospreys he is great at the breakdown. But at test level, I have barely seen him stick his head into a breakdown - last two games anyway - let alone make a turnover. He also missed three easy tackles as well. Warburton didn't make any clean steals against Ireland but on a couple occasions was unlucky not to win penalties. He also slowed the ball down a lot. That's a fair call on the impact player thing though it is early days in his test career.

I'm saying is that Tipuric has not added anything that Warburton was not giving to the team. Warburton is a more powerful ball carrier and tackler (his strength) whilst Tipuric excels in the loose. Test rugby isn't as loose as club rugby, so his attributes aren't as well suited in my opinion. If you look at the best flankers in world rugby like McCaw, Pocock, Dusautoir, Kaino (it doesn't matter if they are 6 or 7s) they all have some physicality about them. It's just the way the game is going. I guess we'll know by Saturday who gives more impact to the team.

Howley said the main reason for picking Warbs was because he is better at the breakdown, which I agree with. Tipuric hasn't disrupted the ball much for Wales, not really replicating his displays at the Ospreys. Warburton may not be making the clean steals like you said but he's always there at the breakdown slowing it down.

According to the Telegraph:
Tipuric has made 31 meters in 12 carries, average of 2.6m a carry.
Warburton has made 5 meters in 8 carries, average of 0.6m a carry.

 

[dullonien]

It's not just the last two games in all fairness. In the autumn, he had quiet showing against Samoa and on the Summer Tour against Australia when he had 50 minutes he didn't make a steal. Ireland is the only game I've seen him boss the breakdown (also made steals in the late stages coming on against Argentina and Australia in the autumn). I guess my point is that he hasn't, from what I've seen added much to the Wales game - nothing that Warburton didn't provide. I can also say that Warburton wouldn't have been bossed around at the back of the scrum by Vosowai like Tipuric was - I've seen Warbs drive the likes of Kieran Read and Imanol Harinordoquy sideways and backwards] from number eight picks.

I thought Warburton was good at the breakdown against New Zealand and Australia (albeit he conceded a few penalties in this game but made steals and slowed the ball down nonetheless) in the autumn. I haven't personally seen enough of the Blues to comment on his performances there, although he had a decent game against Munster (although that was a pretty poor Munster team in my opinion).

Yeah, you are right, Warburton was ok at the breakdown against NZ and Aus, although still not a patch on his pre WC form in that aspect of the game. I also agree that Warburton's defence is better,a nd Tips will probably be disappointed with those missed tackles against Italy. However, Tipuric's tackling is normally not a weak aspect of his game, seen him put in plenty of good driving hits.

Both might be struggling a little because the rest of the Welsh team have also been struggling since the end of last years 6 nations. Difficult for a 7 to shine in a struggling team. I suppose the same excuse can be used for Warburton with the Blues, whilst Tips is playing in a very strong O's forward pack.

 

[cyRil]

I think we are going to be in for a fantastic game. I think Wales may edge it if they have the territory and possession. Though I still see Scotland winning it, especially if Welsh minds are part focussed on England the following week. I think a draw is also a possibility.

This is my post of the week.

 

[cyRil]

in coombs' defence, i have a problem with coaches picking players on past form or past achievements. I think all that counts for nothing if a players form isn't up to scratch. What you're saying here is that wyn-jones is a superior player at present purely for the fact he has been a lion, won grand slams, has played more test matches, etc.

in that case would you throw gavin henson in at 10 for the scotland match? he's been playing pretty well for london welsh, so why not? He has won 2 grand slams and has more caps than biggar, therefore must be better at the moment. Or would you play rees over hibbard? A former lion is bound to be better than a puny ospreys hooker, right? That's sort of what that argument sounds like to me, anyway.

YES!!!!!

In Duck's defence, there really is no comparison. Coombs has played really well for the level of player he is - tackled and carried well. You can't cite his influence at the line-out because I don't think he's actually taken one in 3 games.

AWJ is and has been a wonderful player for Wales. He is influential, strong and a leader in the pack. Leaving him out is a waste of a fantastic weapon - especially when you consider we're up against Richie Gray and MOTM v Ireland Jim Hamilton.

 

[SelimNiai]

This is my post of the week.

It's more neutral than the Swiss goverment

 

[cyRil]

According to the Telegraph:

Warburton has made 5 meters in 8 carries, average of 0.6m a carry.

Borthwick-esque!

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I think we are going to be in for a fantastic game. I think Wales may edge it if they have the territory and possession. Though I still see Scotland winning it, especially if Welsh minds are part focussed on England the following week. I think a draw is also a possibility.

Hmmm. . . . .

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

I don't think either Tipuric or Warburton is 'better' at the breakdown, instead different approaches. Whereas Warburton is strong over the ball, Tipuric is lightning quick, and uses it in defence as well as attack. The stand-out game for me was the match against the barbarians, where Tipuric made 5 turnovers, mostly thanks to how quickly he could get in and snaffle the ball away. Whereas Warburton has the habit of winning penalties, Tipuric usually goes to steal the ball instead, creating the turnover. However, the last two games have not suited his style either at the breakdown or in open play. Unfortunately, it looks like the match tailor-made for him, in bright, sunny weather against a Scottish side with sluggish centres, a backrow with a habit of dawdling to the breakdown and a fondness for letting the opposition play with the ball, is the one he's going to be missing. Granted, Scotland's pack are big, so Warburton's selection makes sense, but they're not as efficient as the other Six Nations side (Something highlighted by Martyn Williams on Scrum V on Sunday).

Someone tell me, am I better off when I just say stupid things like "Tips should play because he has the best scrum cap in the world" (Which, incidentally, is also true) or when I try and make articulated points like above? Because I'm not sure I'm very good at either.

 

[Draggs]

Lets chop them up and make one super flanker.
We can call him: Martyn Williams.
(The leftover bits can be Josh Turnbull Jr.)

I don't like Tipuric's cap. Clashes with the red.

I think part of the Coombs situation is that people like to see the underdog come through. Just like with Lloyd Burns, seeing a older player who didn't come through the academies, U20 etc given a shot make a pretty good read.

 

[tompaton]

According to the Telegraph:
Tipuric has made 31 meters in 12 carries, average of 2.6m a carry.
Warburton has made 5 meters in 8 carries, average of 0.6m a carry.

Yeah but a good chunk of those metres was in loose play against Ireland in the second half, I'm referring to his ability in close contact. See the game against NZ where was driving very hard. Like I said, Tipuric thrives in the loose but his carries in tight aren't quite as good as Warburton's. He made 2 metres for 6 runs against France, 0 runs against Italy.

 

[SelimNiai]

Just for the lols heres Scrum V's silly Scotland XV

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none; cursor: -webkit-zoom-in;" src="http://img.ly/system/uploads/006/970/509/large_upload.jpg" width="396" height="529">