Scotland vs Wales - 09/03/2013

[psychic duck]

Looks like Alun-Wyn will be starting. If this is true, Coombs will be gutted. I think I will be gutted for him too. He hasn't put a foot wrong, been one of our best ball-carriers. I know Jones is usually the better all-round lock, but why fix something that ain't broke?

This Coombs thing is getting silly now. People are going overboard on him.

He has done better than expected. But to say he hasn't put a foot wrong isn't true, he conceded 2 of the 3 penalties Ireland kicked in the first match. He has worked hard, and has good work rate with tackling, and has been above expectations and can be pleased with that. But that doesn't change the following:

- Coombs is basically playing as a 6 with 4 on his back.
- He was hardly a standout at the Dragons and wasn't even the first pick at lock (or at least not before this), and to be honest when he was with the Dragons he wasn't anything better than average.
- Alun-Wyn Jones is a class far above him, and offers everything Coombs does just a lot better whilst offering more grunt at the same time. AWJ is a Lions class lock, Coombs needs to be playing more than just decent to keep a Lions class lock out of the side. He has however overtaken Lou Reed in the pecking order though, and challenging Bradley Davies who hasn't been on form for the past 18 months. So Coombs has put his name further forward for future selections when injuries/unavailabilities occur, but not starting when everybody is fit.

This Coombs has done quite well so let's keep him and we don't need the player who has proven to be over a long period of time to be a far better player doesn't make sense. Cruden did quite well for the All Blacks when he came in the side in the Rugby Championship, nobody ever said "let's not change the team for a newly fit Carter as Cruden has done well".

Alun-Wyn Jones is Wales' best lock in my opinion, and AWJ and Evans when fit is the best lock combination, I see no reason not to select that. Charteris is the next best.

 

[SelimNiai]

He conceded a penalty?!?!?!

Thats it. Hang him from the stadium by his nostrils. So conceding a penalty suddenly makes you a bad player. Quick, someone tell McCaw he sucks as he gives a penalty away every now and then.

Since when is "worked hard, and has good work rate with tackling, and has been above expectations" a bad thing that merits dropping the player? As long as he is playing well he should not be dropped, especially for a player thats come back from injury and isnt 100% match fit. What message are you sending to players like Coombs if you drop a player who is playing well just because someone who has a better reputation.

Also, I'm fairly sure you cant compare the Coombs/AWJ situation to the Carter/Cruden. The situations are just a bit different.

 

[psychic duck]

He conceded a penalty?!?!?!

Thats it. Hang him from the stadium by his nostrils. So conceding a penalty suddenly makes you a bad player. Quick, someone tell McCaw he sucks as he gives a penalty away every now and then.

Since when is "worked hard, and has good work rate with tackling, and has been above expectations" a bad thing that merits dropping the player? As long as he is playing well he should not be dropped, especially for a player thats come back from injury and isnt 100% match fit. What message are you sending to players like Coombs if you drop a player who is playing well just because someone who has a better reputation.

Also, I'm fairly sure you cant compare the Coombs/AWJ situation to the Carter/Cruden. The situations are just a bit different.

1. I didn't say he was a bad player. I was saying that saying "he hasn't put a foot wrong" is false. He conceded 6 points worth of penalties at rucks against Ireland and a knock on, he didn't play badly, but what I am saying is some have gone overboard in statements such as that. Coombs has been decent, but some have taken it too far, I doubt any other nation in the 6 Nations would want him in their XV.

2. It isn't a bad thing that he has done decently. But he needs to shifted aside now for the much better player who is the best lock. Also by next week AWJ will have been back for 4 weeks, I think he is properly fit enough now to start. The message sent is simply that we select the best players.

3. Yes there is a comparison, if a player fills in well temporarily it doesn't mean they should stay. Cruden filled in well in 2012, but there was no debate when Carter was fit. I remember Craig Mitchell filled in decently for Adam in the 2011 Six Nations, but when Adam was fit again nobody ever questioned him returning, yet for some reason in this case people seem to have taken to Coombs performances as if he has been an irreplaceable presence.

 

[SelimNiai]

Conversely I think you are being over critical of Coombs.

There was no debate because Carter replacing Cruden is like Mila Kunis replacing Nora Batty as your wife. AWJ replacing Coombs isn't.

My point is there isn't a viable reason why you'd replace Coombs with AWJ. I really can't see what extra AWJ will bring that Coombs doesn't. If anything AWJ is more of a risk of giving away stupid penalties, I don't think he's that much better in the lineouts, certainly our lineout has been functioning pretty well with Coombs in it. AWJ is a slightly better ball carrier but thats not to say Coombs isn't.

So in my view basing the swap solely on AWJ's slight superiority in some areas whilst not in others and not looking at the whole picture is wrong.

 

[Getofmeland]

Duncan Weir, the 21-year-old Glasgow Warriors stand-off, will make his first start for Scotland in Saturday's RBS 6 Nations Championship match against Wales at Murrayfield.

Weir, whose three previous caps have been won from the bench, replaces his clubmate Ruaridh Jackson in the pivotal position.
Weir told www.scottishrugby.org: "It's a moment I'll cherish and hopefully I can do the coaches justice for giving me the start."

The other change to the initial line-up from the team that defeated Ireland last month sees the 2009 British and Irish Lion, Euan Murray, return to the tighthead berth with Geoff Cross moving to the bench.

Ryan Wilson, the 23-year-old Glasgow Warriors No 8 who has led his club on three occasions this season and who was captain and man of the match in Scotland A's victory over England Saxons last month, is introduced to a match-day 23 for the first time.

Wilson is named instead of David Denton who sustained a knee injury when playing for Edinburgh Rugby against Scarlets in the RaboDirect PRO12 at the weekend.

Scotland interim head coach Scott Johnson said: "Selection is tough just now but that's a good thing as we increase competition for places.

"Duncan did well when he came on against Ireland and he got some decent game time for Glasgow at the weekend. He's a talent with a really good work ethic and a thirst to improve, which I like a lot.

"Ruaridh remains a key part of our squad but he knows with Tom Heathcote proving a match-winner for Bath and kicking goals from here, there and everywhere, that he needs to up his game too.

"Geoff (Cross) was a standout against Ireland and it's up to Euan, who fronted up big time against Italy, to raise the bar again.

"Wales will be going for their fifth successive away victory in the championship and that would be a record for them but our focus is on ensuring we win the contact zone, continue to improve and make it three wins on the bounce."

Scotland team (sponsor RBS) to play Wales in the RBS 6 Nations Championship at Murrayfield on Saturday 9 March (kick-off 2.30pm)
15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 13 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
14 Sean Maitland (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps, 1 try, 5 points
13 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 74 caps, 9 tries, 45 points
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 10 caps, 1 try, 5 points
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby) 8 caps, 5 tries, 25 points
10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps, 1 conversion, 2 points
9 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) vice-captain, 16 caps, 2 tries, 16 conversions and 30 penalties, 132 points

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) vice-captain, 8 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 66 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors) 51 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks) 30 caps, 1 try, 5 points
5 Jim Hamilton (Gloucester) 44 caps, 1 try, 5 points
6 Robert Harley (Glasgow Warriors) 3 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) captain, 55 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
8 Johnnie Beattie (Montpellier) 19 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

Substitutes
16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors) 41 caps, 1 try, 5 points
17 Moray Low (Glasgow Warriors) 17 caps
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby) 19 caps, 1 try, 5points
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors) 50 caps, 1 try, 5 points
20 Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) uncapped
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 5 caps, 1 try, 5 points
22 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 18 caps, 2 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals, 16 points
23 Max Evans (Castres) 34 caps, 3 tries, 15 points

Unavailable through injury: Chris Cusiter and Chris Fusaro (both Glasgow Warriors), David Denton, Grant Gilchrist and Ross Rennie (all Edinburgh Rugby)

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa). Assistant referees: Glen Jackson (New Zealand) and Lourens Van Der Merwe (South Africa). TMO: Giulio De Santis (Italy).

 

[TRF_Cymro]

WALES: Leigh Halfpenny; Alex Cuthbert, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, George North, Dan Biggar, Mike Phillips; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Ryan Jones (capt), Sam Warburton, Toby Faletau.
REPLACEMENTS: Ken Owens, Scott Andrews, Craig Mitchell, Andrew Coombs, Justin Tipuric, Lloyd Williams, James Hook, Scott Williams.

 

[SelimNiai]

Biggest stand out there. Warbs in but RJones still captain. Thats a bit of an odd one. Otherwise happy with that team.

 

[psychic duck]

WALES: Leigh Halfpenny; Alex Cuthbert, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, George North, Dan Biggar, Mike Phillips; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Ryan Jones (capt), Sam Warburton, Toby Faletau.
REPLACEMENTS: Ken Owens, Scott Andrews, Craig Mitchell, Andrew Coombs, Justin Tipuric, Lloyd Williams, James Hook, Scott Williams.

I'm finding the bench selection a bit hard to understand there.

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Biggest stand out there. Warbs in but RJones still captain. Thats a bit of an odd one. Otherwise happy with that team.

I know what you mean. I guess you could say it's the kindest way possible to nurse him back to form without too much pressure.

if Alun-Wyn doesn't have a full 80 in him (of course he does!) I think we may see Ryan moving to lock and Warburton and Tipuric together again.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

WALES TEAM CORRECTION

Please see below the CORRECT Wales team line-up to face Scotland at Murrayfield in Round 4 of the 2013 RBS 6 Nations. Apologies for error in initial, earlier release. Please note that the two props on the Welsh replacements bench are Scott Andrews and Ryan Bevington and NOT Andrews and Craig Mitchell.

Revised Team List (attached biogs updated)

WALES: Leigh Halfpenny; Alex Cuthbert, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, George North, Dan Biggar, Mike Phillips; Paul James, Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Alun Wyn Jones, Ian Evans, Ryan Jones (capt), Sam Warburton, Toby Faletau.

REPLACEMENTS: Ken Owens, Ryan Bevington, Scott Andrews, Andrew Coombs, Justin Tipuric, Lloyd Williams, James Hook, Scott Williams.

 

[Ospreylian]

I am just pretty gobsmacked at the dropping of Tipuric. The rest of the team is fine. But, why on earth has Tipuric been dropped??? Just when I was beginning to have faith in Howley's selection (for the most part) he goes and makes one of the biggest mistakes of his international coaching career yet. I really hope Sam can prove me wrong and put in a HUGE performance, and he needs a seriously big performance to make me believe he is better than Tipuric at the moment.

Oh well... the best openside in the world may be on the bench, but at least the 2nd best openside is starting...

 

[j'nuh]

Don't know why there aren't any others picking up on that. Tipuric's good form netted him only two games? :huh: What has Warburton done to get back in?

 

[Draggs]

Warburton is no longer public enemy #1, it is safe to play him again.
Once Lydiate returns, we will have quite a headache for backrow selection.

Andrews over Mitchell?? Not sure what happened there.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Mitchell apparently is injured.

 

[psychic duck]

Conversely I think you are being over critical of Coombs.

There was no debate because Carter replacing Cruden is like Mila Kunis replacing Nora Batty as your wife. AWJ replacing Coombs isn't.

My point is there isn't a viable reason why you'd replace Coombs with AWJ. I really can't see what extra AWJ will bring that Coombs doesn't. If anything AWJ is more of a risk of giving away stupid penalties, I don't think he's that much better in the lineouts, certainly our lineout has been functioning pretty well with Coombs in it. AWJ is a slightly better ball carrier but thats not to say Coombs isn't.

So in my view basing the swap solely on AWJ's slight superiority in some areas whilst not in others and not looking at the whole picture is wrong.

Look at Alun-Wyn Jones' career with the Ospreys, Wales and the Lions, then look at Andrew Coombs' career with the Dragons. And then come back and say that there is little difference between the two with a straight face.

No place for sentiment in top level sport, Coombs may have done decently (mainly getting credit as he hasn't been quite as crap as was expected rather than being particularly exceptional to be honest) but Alun-Wyn Jones is the better player in every facet of the game, especially at the breakdown, tackle and is far better in the tight.

Hence why Alun-Wyn Jones has got 3 Lions caps, and been Wales' best lock over the last 6 or so years and has 68 caps, whilst Coombs has been a bit part back rower at by far the worst regional team up until this season and he still hasn't been the first pick at lock even this season spending time behind Rob Sidoli and Adam Jones in the lineup.

 

[Ospreylian]

Look at Alun-Wyn Jones' career with the Ospreys, Wales and the Lions, then look at Andrew Coombs' career with the Dragons. And then come back and say that there is little difference between the two with a straight face.

No place for sentiment in top level sport, Coombs may have done decently (mainly getting credit as he hasn't been quite as crap as was expected rather than being particularly exceptional to be honest) but Alun-Wyn Jones is the better player in every facet of the game, especially at the breakdown, tackle and is far better in the tight.

Hence why Alun-Wyn Jones has got 3 Lions caps, and been Wales' best lock over the last 6 or so years and has 68 caps, whilst Coombs has been a bit part back rower at by far the worst regional team up until this season and he still hasn't been the first pick at lock even this season spending time behind Rob Sidoli and Adam Jones in the lineup.

In Coombs' defence, I have a problem with coaches picking players on past form or past achievements. I think all that counts for nothing if a players form isn't up to scratch. What you're saying here is that Wyn-Jones is a superior player at present purely for the fact he has been a Lion, won Grand Slams, has played more test matches, etc.

In that case would you throw Gavin Henson in at 10 for the Scotland match? He's been playing pretty well for London Welsh, so why not? He has won 2 grand slams and has more caps than Biggar, therefore must be better at the moment. Or would you play Rees over Hibbard? A former Lion is bound to be better than a puny Ospreys hooker, right? That's sort of what that argument sounds like to me, anyway.

 

[Draggs]

In Coombs' defence, I have a problem with coaches picking players on past form or past achievements. I think all that counts for nothing if a players form isn't up to scratch. What you're saying here is that Wyn-Jones is a superior player at present purely for the fact he has been a Lion, won Grand Slams, has played more test matches, etc.

In that case would you throw Gavin Henson in at 10 for the Scotland match? He's been playing pretty well for London Welsh, so why not? He has won 2 grand slams and has more caps than Biggar, therefore must be better at the moment. Or would you play Rees over Hibbard? A former Lion is bound to be better than a puny Ospreys hooker, right? That's sort of what that argument sounds like to me, anyway.

I'd play Henson over Roberts or Davies for what it's worth.

@Cymro, thanks, any clue of the injury and for how long?

 

[dullonien]

I agree with duck on this. Coombs has done really well, and he can really hold his head high at the performances he's put in, but when you've got a player of the calibre of Alun-Wyn Jones fit, he comes straight back in. I also think Coombs' performances have been blown a little out of proportion. He's been good, much better than expected tbh, but he hasn't been exceptional.

Not sure either why Warburton has been picked ahead of Tips. Tips has taken his opportunity well, and whilst he hasn't had a chance to really shine in the tightly fought games against France and Italy, he's still put in a lot of hard work. Warbs should have had to re-claim the shirt by putting in big substitute appearances, and showing form for the Blues (why wasn't he released this past weekend?). Warbs is still a solid player, but Tipuric deserved a run of games, and he hasn't been given that.

Edit. Pity Mitchell is injured once more. I thought he provided some considerable impact from the bench thus far this 6 nations. I still have little confidence in Andrews, despite his performances in the Autumn, but he's next in line, so if he's called upon I'll be fully behind him.

I also wanted to add to my opinions about Warburton v Tipuric. Ultimately I suppose it's just great that this debate is happening. I still think Warburton is a quality player, and will show that again soon. Whether that is in this game, I'm not sure, but it'll be even better to have both Warburton and Tipuric on top form and challenging each other. They should drive each other forwards to better things for years to come, not to mention the other opensides developing in Wales.

 

[j'nuh]

Having thought about it, maybe Warburton was picked with a mind on Scotland? Warburton has the physical edge over Tipuric, and Scotland are full of big players. Scotland have been struggling in the territory battle, so maybe Howley's thinking that a Tipuric's breakdown prowess isn't needed because he expects Wales to gain the lion's share anyway, and the physical advantage of having Warburton will help to keep Scotland pinned.

Still think it's daft though. Tipuric is contending for the Lions 7 shirt whilst Warburton may be lucky to make the plane atm.

 

[tompaton]

Having thought about it, maybe Warburton was picked with a mind on Scotland? Warburton has the physical edge over Tipuric, and Scotland are full of big players. Scotland have been struggling in the territory battle, so maybe Howley's thinking that a Tipuric's breakdown prowess isn't needed because he expects Wales to gain the lion's share anyway, and the physical advantage of having Warburton will help to keep Scotland pinned.

Still think it's daft though. Tipuric is contending for the Lions 7 shirt whilst Warburton may be lucky to make the plane atm.

Warburton is far better at the breakdown than Tipuric. Tipuric's strength is his link play and this has barely come into play the last two games. He's an outstanding club player but this is mainly because he is brilliant in the loose, because club rugby is more open. He hasn't proven himself to a top class 7 at test level in my opinion - I mean sure he hasn't done that much wrong but he's barely added anything extra. I reckon Tipuric will turn into a permanent impact player for Wales, much like Adam Thomson for New Zealand - he was, in the end, pretty much told he wasn't physical enough for test rugby.

Warburton is physical and has breakdown prowess and his attacking game is based on his ball carrying rather than link play. His tackles are harder than Tipuric's as well. He wouldn't have been bossed around off the scrum by Vosowai, the Italian 8 like Tipuric was (3 relatively simple miss tackles). That is a proven fact. I've seen him drive Kieran Read and Imanol Harinordoquy backwards when they've picked up from the back. He is a strong tackler.