Scotland v Ireland, 24/02/13

[munstermuffin]

Well lads I've been away for long time been busy but said I'd come back on this and WOW.
What can I say and everyone knows I defend Munster lads from before to end and knowing them personally and know their efforts but here is honesty:
Starting at prop. Killer should've started ahead of Court simply as I think he offers more around in similar way to Healy and we needed that. Court wasn't terrible etc but just would've helped. Ross is priceless to us but apart from scrum he offers nothing and that scares me. And regards hooker Sherry should be on bench as he is best 2 for line out and offers same as Cronin on loose of not more.
In locks DOC has been in superb form for Munster but we need to plan ahead. Toner isn't answer but Henderson should've been given a go. Ryan and McCarthy will be pair for a while.
Backrow were poor but I think POM gets unfair critics and well I can forgive them as they all have tools just no confidence.
Murray was ok and slow ball was mixture of little time with PJ and not trusting him. He is still our best option by a bit. Reddan did well but that's his role now.
PJ was ok but poor kicking. Personally he is bit over hyped and needs to kick but think Ruan protects him so much at Ulster in terms of taking on kicks etc. ROGg needs to step away he isn't even #1 at Munster. Madigan is man who deserved shot based on form. As for backs just all low on confidence. Earls IMO did correct thing but is a winger not a centre. Marshall deserves to be stuck with at 12 and we need to find a replacement for BOD because he will end up like ROG before too long and we need to try find another from Cave etc

 

[coonor]

Not true. We went through a lot of coaches and players between then and now. I do not believe Ireland will have to do the same though - but may well do.

edit: And, thinking about it, the golden generation is largely gone and Ireland are already in a fallow period, just no one's talked much about it. No reason it has to go on much longer though.

I'm talking about more short term succession issues, which in the context of this game have been highlighted in the out half position. If you look at the England World Cup performance, there was actually succession issues at centre, fly half and 8. The introduction of Lancaster and his development of youth has given England clear depth, something that very much contrasts England even during the end of Johnsons reign.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

[....]

Good to see you back!

 

[Peat]

I'm talking about more short term succession issues, which in the context of this game have been highlighted in the out half position. If you look at the England World Cup performance, there was actually succession issues at centre, fly half and 8. The introduction of Lancaster and his development of youth has given England clear depth, something that very much contrasts England even during the end of Johnsons reign.

Johnson's issues of buffoonery made the succession issues appear a lot worse than they were in some places, and he pushed hard to make others less than they might have been.

Although yes, a new coach did solve a lot of that. And a new coach should do wonders for Ireland, although he's got some issues in the second row, back row balance stakes, 13 shirt and general competition stakes to address that might require a fairly big magic wand.

 

[munstermuffin]

Good to see you back!

Cheers man

 

[Big Ewis]

omg, the GIf is already out I see...:lol:
what the hell was he thinking for God's sake ! :lol:
Just imagine you're one of the two Scottish players on defense there, thinkin like "wtf, nahhh he didn't just do that ?!"

P.S.: lineout and scrum a problem for Ireland...how many lineouts WITHIN the scottish 22 did they lose ? 3 at least I counted...

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

a new coach should do wonders for Ireland, although he's got some issues in the second row, back row balance stakes, 13 shirt and general competition stakes to address that might require a fairly big magic wand.

I agree with this. Ireland's stocks at second row and tighthead prop are low. Whoever comes in will have a lot of positives to work with though. A byproduct of the injury woes currently being experienced by the squad is a lot of players are being blooded. The next coach will have players like Simon Zebo, Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall, Paddy Jackson, Dave Kilcoyne, Richardt Strauss and Iain Henderson already exposed to test rugby. The provincial academies all seem to be working pretty well below that too so there'll soon be a production line of talent ready to step up.

I hope Conor O'Shea or Joe Schmidt get the Ireland coaching job with David Humphreys becoming the Director of Rugby. Mike Ruddock would be an acceptable short term option. I fear it'll be Michael Bradley or Eric Elwood.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Well lads I've been away for long time been busy but said I'd come back on this and WOW.
What can I say and everyone knows I defend Munster lads from before to end and knowing them personally and know their efforts but here is honesty:
Starting at prop. Killer should've started ahead of Court simply as I think he offers more around in similar way to Healy and we needed that. Court wasn't terrible etc but just would've helped. Ross is priceless to us but apart from scrum he offers nothing and that scares me. And regards hooker Sherry should be on bench as he is best 2 for line out and offers same as Cronin on loose of not more.
In locks DOC has been in superb form for Munster but we need to plan ahead. Toner isn't answer but Henderson should've been given a go. Ryan and McCarthy will be pair for a while.
Backrow were poor but I think POM gets unfair critics and well I can forgive them as they all have tools just no confidence.
Murray was ok and slow ball was mixture of little time with PJ and not trusting him. He is still our best option by a bit. Reddan did well but that's his role now.
PJ was ok but poor kicking. Personally he is bit over hyped and needs to kick but think Ruan protects him so much at Ulster in terms of taking on kicks etc. ROGg needs to step away he isn't even #1 at Munster. Madigan is man who deserved shot based on form. As for backs just all low on confidence. Earls IMO did correct thing but is a winger not a centre. Marshall deserves to be stuck with at 12 and we need to find a replacement for BOD because he will end up like ROG before too long and we need to try find another from Cave etc

Great to have you back Muffin! Hope you don't mind me going through your post in horrifying detail

Killer should've started ahead of Court simply as I think he offers more around in similar way to Healy and we needed that. Court wasn't terrible etc but just would've helped.

In fairness, this selection was completely down to the coaches preference, I don't think anyone would have complained had either been picked to start, as both have been in good form at provincial level. I do agree that having had Kilcoyne on the bench for the past two games he would have been the more obvious choice perhaps, especially as his game bears so much resemblance to Healy's (albeit he's not at the same level just yet.) Seeing that the Scots don't have a particualry good scrum Kilcoyne probably would have been my choice too. As for Ross, I'd much rather have someone who could scrummage well and do nothing else than someone who is better in the loose and good in the scrum. The latter days of John Hayes and some of the performances of Tony Buckley showed that that's a recipe for disaster.

In locks DOC has been in superb form for Munster but we need to plan ahead. Toner isn't answer but Henderson should've been given a go. Ryan and McCarthy will be pair for a while.

Henderson seems to be heading towards being more of a 6 than a lock at the moment. I think in the two boys you mentioned we'll be okay, and Dan Tuohy is no slouch either. Maybe someone like Foley, Ben Marshall or Flanagan (or even Roux if we're not too proud) steps up at provincial level, but until then I think we've got to proceed as we are with the three lads.

Backrow were poor but I think POM gets unfair critics and well I can forgive them as they all have tools just no confidence.

I'm not really having a go at POM, it's just that I don't think he's where he needs to be to be starting for Ireland just yet. That's not to say he wont get there (he's still very young) but he still seems pretty underpowered. I would have liked to see Henderson given a shot if we're going to continue shoe horning SOB into 7. JH is having a pretty poor patch atm too, but you've got to wonder how being captain in a camp that seems to have turned against the coach is like. I'd imagine the majority of the squad is still looking to BOD as the "real" captain.

Murray was ok and slow ball was mixture of little time with PJ and not trusting him. He is still our best option by a bit. Reddan did well but that's his role now.

I still think there are major flaws in Murray's game. His delivery is too slow for my liking and that has the effect of putting an outhalf, especially such a young one, under pressure. He's improving this area of his game, but he still needs work. With Paul Marshall at Ulster and Conor Marmion at Connacht we are at least starting to see some new options come available though.

PJ was ok but poor kicking. Personally he is bit over hyped and needs to kick but think Ruan protects him so much at Ulster in terms of taking on kicks etc. ROGg needs to step away he isn't even #1 at Munster. Madigan is man who deserved shot based on form

Yeah, can't argue with that. I do have the feeling that Jackson has the potential to be a more rounded and complete 10 than Madigan, but he's out of form and low on confidence - probably not the best time to be introduced to the international stage, particularly in possibly the most important position on the pitch. Madigan would have offered more of a cutting edge, and is at least as good at kicking for goal (probably better in all honesty) so he should have certainly started.

As for backs just all low on confidence. Earls IMO did correct thing but is a winger not a centre. Marshall deserves to be stuck with at 12 and we need to find a replacement for BOD because he will end up like ROG before too long and we need to try find another from Cave etc

I don't think we necessarily need to 'find' another 13. Cave is ready now. He's in his mid 20's and has played to a high level before, so he shouldn't need too much bedding in time. I thought Marshall was pretty good at 12, so I'd be inclined to stick with him for the time being. In reality we only have 3 options at 12 - Marshall, McFadden and McSharry. I still think McSharry is too easy to close down and Ferg needs to get a good run of games at 12 before he can be considered.

 

[nosevi]

omg, the GIf is already out I see...:lol:
what the hell was he thinking for God's sake ! :lol:
Just imagine you're one of the two Scottish players on defense there, thinkin like "wtf, nahhh he didn't just do that ?!"

I particularly liked what the pundits said "You can sort of see what he was trying to do." Yes I can, I just have no #%^*ing idea why. Back in a mo, just need to check to see who was criticising Farrell in another thread. Can I borrow your GIF, yoe?

 

[big ginger 8]

Anyone know the story on the injury front now?

 

[munstermuffin]

Feic while I agree with you that Court selection was down to coaches selection and both are on form my point is Healy is used as a rampaging prop and obvioulsy he is naturally that way and plays that way so when the team know their 1 plays like that then why not just swap like-for-like. Coaches got it wrong in that way as Court is a different type of player and it changes dynamics a bit. And my point about Ross wasn't to slam him becaue look that is all he ever done and he is pivotal to scrum my worry is simply that between 4 provinces we can't get another decent 3 that can take burden off Ross and maybe do bit more around park.

Regards backrow, I think POM has had a decent tournament and is up there with others in standard but not quite as polished off as SOB etc but his form for Munster has been excellent and I think he has done enough to be ahead of Henderson who needs to show more before considering seriously. Being honest I think if Heaslip wasn't captain then I'd say Coughlan deserves a go because his form has been superb (but this isn't right direction regards building for RWC 15). But SOB is better at 8 and maybe if he was at 8 and maybe Henry (when fit) at 7 or POM can play 7 but point being Heaslips place is slightly being protected by captaincy.

In 2nd row, Henderson I feel is best of what is left available as in DOC is in magical form this season but isn't the right way forward, Toner isn't at this standard and wont be ever. Flanagan, Roux, Foley, Nagle aren't ready and isn't Tuohy out.

I'd disagree about Murray as I know he can pass fast and people have to respect that there more than a 9 to blame for slow ball and he had to link and match with PJ in what 5 days? for a 6N game, that is a crazy call. Let's not forget ROG was a starter up until last Saturday's game. (vs Scarlets) And I think Murray has really been decent this tournament and 1 of our better players. And Marshall needs to be cementing Ulster 9 shirt 1st.

At 10, I still think while Jackson is a decent 10 he is behind Keatley and Madigan but can state big part of that reason is I just see Ruan taking so much pressure off him and giving him a nice ride that it hard not to do good. Keatley has shown the difference he makes when starting at 10 for Munster in comparison to ROG and is improving constantly. And Madigan I hope gets the Amlin to start as he has the tools and while his goal kicking isn't top notch he can run a backline and having met the lad once or twice he's cocky enough to slot straight in. On a side note - Murray and Kearney are more than capable of kicking goals.

With regards backs I agree throw cave in but my point is why do we need to flog BOD etc. As in I hope he is 2 games away from the end of his time in green (understand him playing this year as a push for Lions) as he owes us nothing and don't want to see him bow out like ROG is and we need to have 1 eye on RWC.

My biggest gripe is with coaches like we have no clear gameplan or clarity, how BOD lost captaincy was wrong and while every other country prepares for RWC15 while remaining competitive we are so Tunnel Visioned that IF we had no injuries in a normal 23. ROG, BOD, D'arcy, DOC, Ross (maybe), POC (maybe), Reddan and few others would be constantly there and there'd be no chances given to likes of Zebo or Gilroy etc in meaningful games and dare I'd say this central contract system while good for player welfare could be a handicap to Irish Rugby as it influences coaches decisions.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Feic while I agree with you that Court selection was down to coaches selection and both are on form my point is Healy is used as a rampaging prop and obvioulsy he is naturally that way and plays that way so when the team know their 1 plays like that then why not just swap like-for-like. Coaches got it wrong in that way as Court is a different type of player and it changes dynamics a bit. And my point about Ross wasn't to slam him becaue look that is all he ever done and he is pivotal to scrum my worry is simply that between 4 provinces we can't get another decent 3 that can take burden off Ross and maybe do bit more around park.

Regards backrow, I think POM has had a decent tournament and is up there with others in standard but not quite as polished off as SOB etc but his form for Munster has been excellent and I think he has done enough to be ahead of Henderson who needs to show more before considering seriously. Being honest I think if Heaslip wasn't captain then I'd say Coughlan deserves a go because his form has been superb (but this isn't right direction regards building for RWC 15). But SOB is better at 8 and maybe if he was at 8 and maybe Henry (when fit) at 7 or POM can play 7 but point being Heaslips place is slightly being protected by captaincy.

In 2nd row, Henderson I feel is best of what is left available as in DOC is in magical form this season but isn't the right way forward, Toner isn't at this standard and wont be ever. Flanagan, Roux, Foley, Nagle aren't ready and isn't Tuohy out.

I'd disagree about Murray as I know he can pass fast and people have to respect that there more than a 9 to blame for slow ball and he had to link and match with PJ in what 5 days? for a 6N game, that is a crazy call. Let's not forget ROG was a starter up until last Saturday's game. (vs Scarlets) And I think Murray has really been decent this tournament and 1 of our better players. And Marshall needs to be cementing Ulster 9 shirt 1st.

At 10, I still think while Jackson is a decent 10 he is behind Keatley and Madigan but can state big part of that reason is I just see Ruan taking so much pressure off him and giving him a nice ride that it hard not to do good. Keatley has shown the difference he makes when starting at 10 for Munster in comparison to ROG and is improving constantly. And Madigan I hope gets the Amlin to start as he has the tools and while his goal kicking isn't top notch he can run a backline and having met the lad once or twice he's cocky enough to slot straight in. On a side note - Murray and Kearney are more than capable of kicking goals.

With regards backs I agree throw cave in but my point is why do we need to flog BOD etc. As in I hope he is 2 games away from the end of his time in green (understand him playing this year as a push for Lions) as he owes us nothing and don't want to see him bow out like ROG is and we need to have 1 eye on RWC.

My biggest gripe is with coaches like we have no clear gameplan or clarity, how BOD lost captaincy was wrong and while every other country prepares for RWC15 while remaining competitive we are so Tunnel Visioned that IF we had no injuries in a normal 23. ROG, BOD, D'arcy, DOC, Ross (maybe), POC (maybe), Reddan and few others would be constantly there and there'd be no chances given to likes of Zebo or Gilroy etc in meaningful games and dare I'd say this central contract system while good for player welfare could be a handicap to Irish Rugby as it influences coaches decisions.

I have no problem with any of your post except this point bro. Madigan's kicking recently has certainly been of a high enough standard this season that it shouldn't be an issue. He currently boasts a stat of 83.33% in the Rabo, or 35 out of 42 if that's clearer. Only Ian Keatley has a higher percentage in terms of Irish kicker (about 87%) and none aside from Sexton are playing better.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well if that stat is correct then it only adds to my call for him. I was only going by comments from Leinster fans in past when McFadden used to kick for him. But I know that may have been more due to injury issues or easing pressure on his first few games but stats show him and Keatley are viable contenders. Our problem in Ireland seems to be we can't adapt the if they're good enough they're old enough attitude. And while I say it's vital they be starting choice for provinces in big games I can allow Madigan a reprieve as Schmidt has shown he would trust him and I presume he will be main man next season

 

[Big Ewis]

I particularly liked what the pundits said "You can sort of see what he was trying to do." Yes I can, I just have no #%^*ing idea why. Back in a mo, just need to check to see who was criticising Farrell in another thread. Can I borrow your GIF, yoe?

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here...what, coz I don't like Owen Farrell ? I don't have the right to dislike Farrell ??...What gif ?!...

 

[Feicarsinn]

Well if that stat is correct then it only adds to my call for him. I was only going by comments from Leinster fans in past when McFadden used to kick for him. But I know that may have been more due to injury issues or easing pressure on his first few games but stats show him and Keatley are viable contenders. Our problem in Ireland seems to be we can't adapt the if they're good enough they're old enough attitude. And while I say it's vital they be starting choice for provinces in big games I can allow Madigan a reprieve as Schmidt has shown he would trust him and I presume he will be main man next season

Yeah, as far as I recall the idea was to ease some of the pressure off him as he came into the first team, as Mads is very much a confidence player. However, now that's he's really improved his goal kicking it shouldn't be held against him. Considering that Madigan has played a hell of a lot of rugby over the past 2 seasons, and should be considered Leinster's starting 10 from this point on imo I think the national team has to show some trust in him. That said, Kidney is never going to pick him. He's exactly the sort of player Kidney wouldn't like - too spontaneous, doesn't have the greatest tactical game and is unlikely to go by the book a lot of the time.

At least next season we'll be in a position where we'll have 6 10's starting in the top divisions of European rugby/ That's a significant improvement on where we were a few years ago.

 

[munstermuffin]

Yea Madigan mightn't be great tactical but just because ROG had natural ability to kick corners doesn't mean all 10s have to have it perfected before coming on. Madigan as I said is cocky and not short of self belief so let him loose and at least if we loose I can accept it if it shows we are trying to improve. Lets not forget Sexton was a joke starting off with Ireland and poor tactically kicking (similar to Madigan now) and well he turned out alright as 1 of best 10s in game with a nice all round game

 

[munstermuffin]

May I just add Kidney has to adapt and realise game has evolved and we have to too. I have fear he will get contract extension too but if he doesn't who'd even want job. O'Shea before people say him would have as much interest in this as a penguin would in a sun holiday. Schmidt won't go near it and I think Bradley is only one lurking in tall grass that would take it and well he's not exactly someone who's fill your mind with hope

 

[Feicarsinn]

Yea Madigan mightn't be great tactical but just because ROG had natural ability to kick corners doesn't mean all 10s have to have it perfected before coming on. Madigan as I said is cocky and not short of self belief so let him loose and at least if we loose I can accept it if it shows we are trying to improve. Lets not forget Sexton was a joke starting off with Ireland and poor tactically kicking (similar to Madigan now) and well he turned out alright as 1 of best 10s in game with a nice all round game

In fairness, Sexton's first games for Ireland were against Fiji where he was excellent, and against South Africa where he kicked all the points in a very good win in the fog. I think people oft forget his dip in form came after a very promising start to his career in the green jersey.

The thing I think we've got to recognise is that since he'll be starting an awful lot in bigger games now we can expect Mads' all round game to improve a lot. Even at the moment I'd be calling for him at 22 and Sexton starting if both were fit, as I believe he's a game changer (or provincial bias, whatever), something which none of the other 10's really are. He'll try risk **** that could get you a try or could blow up in your face, but if you're behind by 5 that's the kind of player you want out there.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

May I just add Kidney has to adapt and realise game has evolved and we have to too. I have fear he will get contract extension too but if he doesn't who'd even want job. O'Shea before people say him would have as much interest in this as a penguin would in a sun holiday. Schmidt won't go near it and I think Bradley is only one lurking in tall grass that would take it and well he's not exactly someone who's fill your mind with hope

If you're right, which I'm doubtful, about O'Shea the IRFU need to take a look at themselves and question why they couldn't get a man interested in coaching his country.

 

[munstermuffin]

Well lets not forget O'Shea has a good thing with more money at Quins, can keep on his TV work, is still involved with RFU in some ways and well has already stated its not for him at moment. IRFU can't be blamed for that