Scotland: The Next Step

[psychic duck]

Just because they have structure doesn't mean they don't play to their traditional strengths which was techincally adept backs with a lot of pace having a go form pretty much everywhere.

They control the pace of the game by doing exactly that, they sling it wide and try and create 1 on 1's or 2 vs 1 in the back line and move opposition teams defensive alignment around at pace. They are quite happy surrendering possession if it is the outcome of their outside backs get a chance against their opposition wingers.

So actually they do sling it wide and hope to get a scoring chance, their desire to keep it alive sees them play high risk rugby that brings great trys but also frequently sees them shipping points.

That's my opinion, you don't have to agree.



A: I never said a team had to conform to an indigenous style. I sid most teams do, and that scotland have suffered from abandoning theirs.

B: Of course tactics change but a teams style of play will generally revolve around traditional strengths - Indigenous = traditional or the natural/native game played.

England 2002, best attacking side in the world at the time, but still steeped in their traditional strengths.

People seem to think that Wales were 15 slight ducking and weaving players all through the 70's, when in fact the bulk of the team was solid and they had a couple of flashy players at 9&10 and in the back 3, much like today.

The traditional welsh style of play is very much physical confrontation. Get on the front foot and then keep that foot on the throat - that's why they've always struggled against SA and NZ as they had packs that could stand up and backs as physical as the welsh. When they lost that physicality (late 80's early 90's) they struggled against teams like Samoa and Fiji who could match them physically.

Give over. The Wales team has evolved massively stylistically over the years from coach to coach. Ruddock won a Grand Slam playing completely differently to Gatland's Championships. Notably the scrum played such as important role in Gatland's time as well. A team dictated by Stephen Jones was not playing the same way as Jonathan Davies.

And most teams don't conform to a traditional style, they adapt and evolve to different coaches, different players, different circumstances, different eras. Scotland have suffered simply from not having a group of players to achieve a great deal, Andy Robinson was continually let down by his players.

As for Japan, I will leave that debate for when you post your article and get what match you've had a look at, although I reckon I could guess which one it is.

Eddie Jones - the Japanese coach - said himself that they've gone back to a traditional type of gameplan. He should know.

He was more meaning revolving the game around his Japanese players, picking more Japanese players than revolving game plans around foreigners. Not going back to the bad old days of chuck it to a small jinky guy and pray. People who actually watched Japan in the mid 90's or early 2000's and watch them now know the difference. A side that builds around simple one pass phase play, has a large carrying back row and increasingly builds around a strong set piece is not anything like what would be considered a traditional old style Japan team, which had went through far less phases, and didn't have the carriers or the scrum.

 

[goodNumber10]

Give over. The Wales team has evolved massively stylistically over the years from coach to coach. Ruddock won a Grand Slam playing completely differently to Gatland's Championships. Notably the scrum played such as important role in Gatland's time as well. A team dictated by Stephen Jones was not playing the same way as Jonathan Davies.

And most teams don't conform to a traditional style, they adapt and evolve to different coaches, different players, different circumstances, different eras. Scotland have suffered simply from not having a group of players to achieve a great deal, Andy Robinson was continually let down by his players.

As for Japan, I will leave that debate for when you post your article and get what match you've had a look at, although I reckon I could guess which one it is.

i'm not claiming that they are all each a carbon copy of the last, but the welsh strengths have not changed.

Lets talk about scrums: in 70's they based their game around a dominant scrum with a front row that bullied opponents that continued into the 80's and only really fell down in the early 90's. They alwasy been at their best when they have played with heavy set centres who could break the line physically rather than with footwork and a 10 who created the space for them and ran the game with the boot (John and Bennett were both prodigious kickers of the ball).

they have always been at their best when they have had big physical backrowers like Taylor and co...

The patterns may be different but the core components like most other teams stay the same, and that defines the style of play.

like i said it's opinion you don't have to agree with me, it makes no bones to me....

 

[psychic duck]

i'm not claiming that they are all each a carbon copy of the last, but the welsh strengths have not changed.

Lets talk about scrums: in 70's they based their game around a dominant scrum with a front row that bullied opponents that continued into the 80's and only really fell down in the early 90's. They alwasy been at their best when they have played with heavy set centres who could break the line physically rather than with footwork and a 10 who created the space for them and ran the game with the boot (John and Bennett were both prodigious kickers of the ball).

they have always been at their best when they have had big physical backrowers like Taylor and co...

The patterns may be different but the core components like most other teams stay the same, and that defines the style of play.

like i said it's opinion you don't have to agree with me, it makes no bones to me....

Not commenting on the 70's as wasn't there to watch them in detail. But the strengths of the side in my time of watching them have changed, and they would have done for anyone with who watched them pre Gatland as well. Been stated many times already, but Ruddock's Grand Slammers and Gatland's Grand Slammers were playing fundamentally different games with different attributes with individuals that compared differently to each other. Just look at the contrast and strengths of between Martyn Williams, Peel, Jones, Henson, Kevin Morgan with the 2012 team.

Same with Ireland. The group is evolving to a different one to the previous era, Kidney couldn't evolve tactically, Schmidt looks like he can.

 

[goodNumber10]

yeah i think an assessment on what forms tradition generally goes back a bit further than 10 years.

 

[psychic duck]

yeah i think an assessment on what forms tradition generally goes back a bit further than 10 years.

Just to recap on your logic. Every side has a set of strengths and weaknesses viewed as "traditional" established in a long gone era that scarcely resembles modern rugby and over time their strengths and weaknesses never have varied from what the "traditional"?

 

[goodNumber10]

*face palm*

 

[psychic duck]

"The Welsh strengths have not changed" or over the years from some "traditional" style of play from the 70's.

This is getting up there with your "all the PNC was in the IRB window" nonsense.

 

[Rich Taff]

I've always thought that the Scot's performed best when their 'style of play' has revolved around highly mobile forwards, quick and effective at rucks, and a solid back line, with excellent tactical kicking.
As (I think) someone said earlier in the thread (I forget the name and can't be bothered going back to check), they're very similar to the French in regards to the forwards mobility, but without the 'mass'.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

found an interesting report from intheloose. the full topic is here http://intheloose.com/2014/07/22/scottish-problem/

 

[welshglory]

Develop the grassroots a hell of a lot more and hope to hell Glasgow, Edinburgh or any other club can have some sort of calibre in the future.

Growth sure as hell ain't going to come from the national side.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

not sure if anyone got the news i posted up on the scottish rugby thread but i'll post it here. Scotland are going to play Tonga at Rugby Park in Kilmarnock http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28708890

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

not sure if anyone got the news i posted up on the scottish rugby thread but i'll post it here. Scotland are going to play Tonga at Rugby Park in Kilmarnock http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/28708890

The BBC link doesn't seem to be loading properly at the moment but it will certainly be a veyr physical game. Tonga are pretty one dimensional but they do like to cram as much physicality into that dimension as they can. That sort of play style should work in Scotlands favour, they are sort of like a custard team; slows everything down and produces more resistance if you hit it harder. Get a spoon though and you get through it no problem. Tonga are not a spoon team.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

im just hoping this game isn't going to be as bad as the last time we've played.